Titebond I/II/III & Elmer's Carpenter Glue

[SharkWhisperer]

Oh my, another glue thread!!! Get the popcorn cooking!

About to hit "purchase" on a mixed bag of items including a slew of different epoxies, glues, and tapes that I'm starting to run low on. Titebond II has been my go-to adhesive for most things paper, cardboard and wood, and I have absolutely no complaints about it. I sleep with a bottle of TBII under my pillow every night and it guarantees happy dreams.

But....I'm considering extending my glue allegiance, simply out of curiosity (and because it's pretty inexpensive). So I also have a bottle of Titebond III and another of Elmer's Carpenter Glue in my cart, and the Titebond Quick & Thick is probably going to end up there, too. No worries, they'll all get used up within the year.

Specifically, I'm curious about opinions of these 3 new (to me) glues, in comparison to my holdout Titebond II, which I have no intention of abandoning. I can imagine the Quick n Thick might be great for fin fillets, and I wouldn't mind not needing so many applications to get a thick fillet like I now need to with TBII. If it has more solids than TBII and dries thicker then it'll probably also see use filling voids in endcaps of other non-NRA fiery aerial devices (e.g., 37-mm launcher rounds, and various aerial shell inserts).

The TBIII just sounds like it must somehow be an improvement over TBII (if that's even possible!), though I really don't require the extra waterproofing that it might afford.

The Elmers Carpenter's Glue is just because--besides Amazon reviews I know little about it. But I trust Elmers and love their wood filler, so why not give their glue a whirl?

Firsthand experience with these three items, particularly with any real-life comparisons to TBII, would be both interesting and useful! Tx in advance!!!

 

[neil_w]

I'm not convinced there is much value in having TBII, TBIII, and regular Carpenter's glue around, at least for rockets. They all serve pretty much the same purpose, given that you don't need (for example) the waterproofness of the TBIII. Minus that feature, I really don't think it's much different than TBII, although it is definitely more expensive.

Quick and Thick is qualitatively different and indeed is very nice for fillets, because the glue stays put and you can do all your fillets at once. Making very large fillets will still require multiple layers. Oh, and nowadays I always start with a very thin (and very quick-drying) fillet of TBII just to soak the joint, before applying the Q&T.

 

[lakeroadster]

Of the items on your list, Titebond II and Quick & Thick is really all you need. I'd add to the list some white glue for "non-grab" applications such as gluing in couplers and other tube-to-tube gluing.

I use Titebond Quick and Thick for non structural glue joints, such as fillets... but only after using Gorilla Wood Glue for the initial structural glue joints have been made.

Titebond II and Gorilla Wood Glue are very, very similar. So whichever brand you prefer is a good choice. I'm a CAD Monkey... so I gotta back my brothers play.

 

[rharshberger]

The most common glues on my build table:

Elmers Glue-All (white glue) for couplers in cardboard airframes.

Yellow Wood Glue (pick a brand, all are plenty strong for the job and nearly identical)

TiteBond Quick & Thick, literally there is no other non-toxic/less bad equivalent its good for what most of us use it for...fillets on LPR and MPR rockets.

CA glues (brand not relevant but mine are BSI cuz thats whats sold locally, but I do keep several viscosities on hand, usually thin and med) plus Accelerator (been using the same bottle of accelerator for about 20 years, bought at Tennessee Model Hobbies near OakRidge TN).
Testors Model Cement/Duco Cement (have both, but Testors has been on my bench for over 40 years in both liquid and gel viscosities).

BSI Epoxies (all rates of cure 5min, 15 min, 20 min laminating, and 30 min), I also have Cabosil and Milled FG, and Phenolic Micro Balloons as well to modify as/if needed.

Occasionally I have US Composites 635 3:1 laminating resin as well in small bottles, but that stuff usually stays in the shop in gallon quantities.

Almost all glues make a bond stronger than the materials being bonded when the materials are paper to wood, paper to paper, and wood to wood.

 

[SharkWhisperer]

Of the items on your list, Titebond II and Quick & Thick is really all you need. I'd add to the list some white glue for "non-grab" applications such as gluing in couplers and other tube-to-tube gluing.

I use Titebond Quick and Thick for non structural glue joints, such as fillets... but only after using Gorilla Wood Glue for the initial structural glue joints have been made.

Titebond II and Gorilla Wood Glue are very, very similar. So whichever brand you prefer is a good choice. I'm a CAD Monkey... so I gotta back my brothers play.

I do believe you are correct insofar as adding TBIII and Elmers Carpenter Glue to the glue collection might be redundant.

I don't really need another slower-setting wood glue or the modestly extra 250 psi rating of TBIII and waterproofing vs my standby TBII. And Elmers and Elmers Max seem to be analagous to TBI (maybe II?) and TBIII; they're all PVA-based.

I was mostly interested if anybody had adopted TBIII or the Elmers family as their primary go-to glue as I have with TBII, or better suitability for specific rocketry applications, and why.

It seems I will be maintaining my very close relationship with TBII and restock that. I have been meaning to try the TB Quick & Thick but for some reason have just never gotten to it, so will buy a bottle to test on fillets and for other miscellaneous void-filling purposes. I expect it will prove useful.

And right you are that good ol' regular white glue, generic or otherwise, is a basic staple.

Some day I'll need to compare the TB family to the homemade glue I make for tube rolling using soluble glutinous rice starch--tubes become hard as stone almost...

 

[Hobie1dog]

Some day I'll need to compare the TB family to the homemade glue I make for tube rolling using soluble glutinous rice starch--tubes become hard as stone almost...

Ah, now you reveal that you're a glue chemist and manufacturer.

 

[heada]

There is a new version of TB called TB Extend. It changes the grab time from a few minutes to almost an hour. It would be ideal for couplers. I like it for complex woodworking glue ups like dovetails.

http://www.titebond.com/product/glues/d7c6f86b-93cc-4400-99ed-79f8a75a2e95
In rocketry, there's no difference between TBI, TBII and TBIII, gorilla white glue (not the polyurethane!) but there is in woodworking. For rocketry, buy whichever is cheapest and use that.

I have TBII, Elmers white for LPR, thin CA, medium CA, BSI 5 munute, BSI 30 minute laminating and West 105/206. Each fills a different role.

 

[SmurfTacoSupreme]

I was mostly interested if anybody had adopted TBIII or the Elmers family as their primary go-to glue as I have with TBII, or better suitability for specific rocketry applications, and why.

I have transitioned from TB2 to TB3 not just for rocketry, but for most of my woodworking needs. Reasons...

1. My gallon of TB2 finally ran out -- which took quite a long time.
2. I already had a 16oz bottle of TB3 on hand.
3. A little extra working time is nice.

Over a few decades I've acquired, experimented with and developed preferences for various adhesives. Most often I'm using: TB3, BSI 5 & 30min, Aeropoxy 6209, thin & med CA, Tamiya Extra Thin. It's nice to have all these options available to me, but you can get by with much less.

 

[rharshberger]

There is a new version of TB called TB Extend. It changes the grab time from a few minutes to almost an hour. It would be ideal for couplers. I like it for complex woodworking glue ups like dovetails.

http://www.titebond.com/product/glues/d7c6f86b-93cc-4400-99ed-79f8a75a2e95
In rocketry, there's no difference between TBI, TBII and TBIII, gorilla white glue (not the polyurethane!) but there is in woodworking. For rocketry, buy whichever is cheapest and use that.

I have TBII, Elmers white for LPR, thin CA, medium CA, BSI 5 munute, BSI 30 minute laminating and West 105/206. Each fills a different role.

TB Extend is nice, its been around quite a few years by other monikers iirc, but it doesn't seem to be easily available at least in my area without buying it from an online retailer like Amazon...which I try and avoid buying from Amazon whenever possible to help my local retailers.

 

[SmurfTacoSupreme]

TB Extend is nice, its been around quite a few years by other monikers iirc, but it doesn't seem to be easily available at least in my area without buying it from an online retailer like Amazon...which I try and avoid buying from Amazon whenever possible to help my local retailers.

Do you have a Woodcraft or Rockler nearby? They should have it.

 

[cbrarick]

Stick with the tightbond.
Stay away from the dark side of the glue :>

 

[rharshberger]

Do you have a Woodcraft or Rockler nearby? They should have it.

180miles West and 140 miles Northeast are the nearest Rockler and Woodcraft stores...Portland and Spokane. As a woodworker myself I know where to get most things, and we no longer have a local tool store like we used too. We do however have 3 hardwood suppliers in town or within 50 miles.

 

[SharkWhisperer]

Ah, now you reveal that you're a glue chemist and manufacturer.

Nope, stirring a powder into water to uniformity does not a glue chemist make. SGRS is a common binder for aerial stars, but it also works well for tube rolling and pasting kraft paper onto builds. I've never mixed it/used it thick enough to TB viscosities, or for anything finned-rocketry related besides single-use motor tube construction though; and only at paint-brush application viscosity.

Organics like SGRS (dextrin and carboxymethylcellulose sometimes used, too) are possibly more susceptible to thermal- and time-dependent degradation (and potential termite damage; very nutritious ) over the long-term than PVA-based glues? Maybe not given that PVA is also susceptible to metabolism by microorganisms. All guesses--simply used SGRS on occasion because it was convenient. Organics like SGRS function as dual binders and also fuels in fireworking, so tubes bound by these chems might not hold up as well as other adhesives to repeated high-temp exposure in motor mount tubing for example. But that's a guess untested, by me at least. Anybody have any idea what adhesive Estes motor tube supplier uses?

I do however know a bit about CAs, having researched them in-depth through development/FDA premarketing approval of new CA formulations for biomed/surgical purposes. Still amazes me that folks actually buy "accelerator" sprays when it costs about a nickel to make a gallon...

 

[SharkWhisperer]

There is a new version of TB called TB Extend. It changes the grab time from a few minutes to almost an hour. It would be ideal for couplers. I like it for complex woodworking glue ups like dovetails.

http://www.titebond.com/product/glues/d7c6f86b-93cc-4400-99ed-79f8a75a2e95
In rocketry, there's no difference between TBI, TBII and TBIII, gorilla white glue (not the polyurethane!) but there is in woodworking. For rocketry, buy whichever is cheapest and use that.

I have TBII, Elmers white for LPR, thin CA, medium CA, BSI 5 munute, BSI 30 minute laminating and West 105/206. Each fills a different role.

A comment and a question: I've used TBI and TBII (not III yet) and there was a notable difference between the two in setting times which is why I adopted TBII for general use. So I have noticed a difference between those two that affected selection. If TBIII was a faster-setting formulation I would test it out because of it's additional tensile strength, but really don't need a long work-time glue for most applications, so the extra cost now doesn't seem worth it (for my needs, for now). For durable outdoor furniture construction it seems fantastic, though. Not so much for my hobbies.

So the TB Extend is good to know about, but probably not something I require at the moment. I would definitely be interested in identifying the nontoxic water-resistant (TBII) and waterproof (TBIII) chemical addition that confers weather resistance to the TB PVA base, though.

Re Epoxy, I use various set-up speeds of JB Weld, and crummy cheap but somewhat effective Harbor Freight 5 minute for non-critical applications, but I'm curious about differences between JBW and BSI that many folks here seem to prefer? The costs appear comparable, but there are a lot of BSI fans here that suggests a better product than others (including JBW). Is this the general opinion?

Tx!

 

[heada]

The attraction of TB Extend isn't the set time but rather the grab time. When glueing in a coupler, TBII can grab that coupler before its fully seated at the depth you want and once it grabs, you're done. Since it is kind of a 1 trick pony, the purchase cost into justified for most people in rocketry. Also, TB isn't PVA, its Aliphatic resin. Qhite wood glue is PVA but yellow wood glue is Aliphatic resin.

The major difference in epoxies are the resin, the hardener and any fillers (bulk in the resin/hardener, not additives that you add). JB Weld is known for a quick set metal filled epoxy. For 99% of the things in rocketry, its too expensive for genersl use but can be used. Motor retainers are about it. For other uses, an epoxy with longer set time and less fillers is cheaper and a better fit.

 

[rharshberger]

The attraction of TB Extend isn't the set time but rather the grab time. When glueing in a coupler, TBII can grab that coupler before its fully seated at the depth you want and once it grabs, you're done. Since it is kind of a 1 trick pony, the purchase cost into justified for most people in rocketry. Also, TB isn't PVA, its Aliphatic resin. Qhite wood glue is PVA but yellow wood glue is Aliphatic resin.

The major difference in epoxies are the resin, the hardener and any fillers (bulk in the resin/hardener, not additives that you add). JB Weld is known for a quick set metal filled epoxy. For 99% of the things in rocketry, its too expensive for genersl use but can be used. Motor retainers are about it. For other uses, an epoxy with longer set time and less fillers is cheaper and a better fit.

The term is Open Time, how long you can work with the glue and the parts being glued before the glue sets enough to be unworkable.

 

[heada]

Open time, working time, grab time.... tomato/tomato

 

[neil_w]

Also, TB isn't PVA, its Aliphatic resin. Qhite wood glue is PVA but yellow wood glue is Aliphatic resin.

From the Titebond II web page:

 

[SharkWhisperer]

The attraction of TB Extend isn't the set time but rather the grab time. When glueing in a coupler, TBII can grab that coupler before its fully seated at the depth you want and once it grabs, you're done. Since it is kind of a 1 trick pony, the purchase cost into justified for most people in rocketry. Also, TB isn't PVA, its Aliphatic resin. Qhite wood glue is PVA but yellow wood glue is Aliphatic resin.

The major difference in epoxies are the resin, the hardener and any fillers (bulk in the resin/hardener, not additives that you add). JB Weld is known for a quick set metal filled epoxy. For 99% of the things in rocketry, its too expensive for genersl use but can be used. Motor retainers are about it. For other uses, an epoxy with longer set time and less fillers is cheaper and a better fit.

Thanks for the epoxy info! The old/cold JBW is pretty reasonable in 3 oz tubes (x 2), but agree the smaller tubes are rather pricey. But smaller tubes of JBW seemed to be similar cost to BWI. If so, wondering about reasons people have for picking one over the other (or another. I usually only use small amounts of epoxy.

And agree about having only one shot at couplers! I'm one of many who have learned this the hard way with premature binding! I usually use whatever white glue is at hand to good effect (for my strength needs), and once diluted some TBII with a little water and it worked fine.

With respect amigo, at least TBII is PVA, per the Titebond's official website. Yellow does not always = aliphatic. Usually, probably, but not always. Oops, I see Neil already posted this while I was busy pecking away...anyways,

TBI ("Original" not hide) is an aliphatic resin.
TBII ("Premium") is cross-linking PVA
TBII ("Dark") is also PVA
TBIII ("Ultimate") as below, "Advanced Proprietary Polymer", which means nothing.
TB Quick n Thick is a "Thixotropic polyvinyl acetate"

"Thixotropic" is a cool word that most people don't know. I didn't until I was working with a cross-linking biomedical hydrogel that's also thixotropic... It means that forces such as shear stress can facilitate disassembly/reassembly before irreversible polymerization to its final 3D structure. Kinda like its deciding how to fit the monomeric pieces together and trying various ways before finally making up its mind. Viscosity changes reversibly according to applied shear until polymerized.

Titebond says their TBIII is a "Type: Advanced Proprietary Polymer", but that just means they're not going to specify. Primary difference in TBIII properties is volatile organic compounds, shown below as 3 g/L for TBII and for TBIII is only 0.01 g/L and Specific gravity is a little higher for TBIII (9.22 pounds/gallon). Similar pH, viscosity, solid content, flash point, use and storage temps. Shoot, TBIII could be Aliphatic or it could be TBI with some sawdust mixed in

From the Titebond Inc website, re TBII (not going to additionally clutter the thread with TB1/TB3 specs).
TBII Physical Properties

• Type: Cross-linking polyvinyl acetate
• Calculated VOC: 3.0 g/L
• State: Liquid
• Weight Per Gallon: 9.1 lbs.
• Color: Honey cream
• Dried Film: Translucent, yellow
• Solids: 48%
• Freeze / Thaw Stability: Stable
• Flashpoint: > 200°F
• Viscosity: 4,000 cps
• pH : 3.0
• Chalk Temperature: To assure a good bond, 55°F is the lowest recommended temperature of the glue, air and materials during application.
• Storage Life: 24 months in tightly closed containers at 75°F

Full page is here: http://www.titebond.com/print/product/2ef3e95d-48d2-43bc-8e1b-217a38930fa2

Anyways, it's all academic so long as it works!

Love, love, love my TBII !!!

 

[MidOH]

TB original.
TB 3.
BSI 15 min epoxy. For things that don't need much strength. Fillets, AV bays, etc.
BSI 30 min epoxy.
BSI super thin CA.
Gorilla Glue thick CA.
Zpoxy finishing resin. For sealing fins and fixing dinged up tubes.

That's my entire quiver of glues. I use epoxy for LPR's now. Because it's quicker. Just use as little as possible. Sometimes I grab the wood glue when it's more convenient. But I prefer epoxy building now.

 

[Hobie1dog]

Zpoxy finishing resin. For sealing fins and fixing dinged up tubes.

never thought about sealing fins with it, isn't it pretty tough to sand and overkill for filling in the wood grain?

 

[SmurfTacoSupreme]

never thought about sealing fins with it, isn't it pretty tough to sand and overkill for filling in the wood grain?

It's a "finishing epoxy" so it's best to apply it in very thin layers. The viscosity is pretty thin so it easily soaks into the wood and a little goes a long way. Haven't used it on balsa, but for plywood fins it's nice.

 

[MidOH]

I haven't perfected it yet. But it shows more promise than other methods. CA is king still, but impractical.

I have to smear the resin on with gloved hands. Pouring it and letting it self level will be way too thick.

 

[Hobie1dog]

It's a "finishing epoxy" so it's best to apply it in very thin layers. The viscosity is pretty thin so it easily soaks into the wood and a little goes a long way. Haven't used it on balsa, but for plywood fins it's nice.

I bought some of this to put on the interior and exterior of that awful 3D printed Diablo nosecone with the 500 ridges on it.

It filled in all the ridges but required a lot of sanding.

 

[4regt4]

I got a little confused about which glue has what "grab time". Which of the alternatives will likely give less grief when gluing tube couplers? I think old fashioned white glue is what was suggested. Correct?

Hans.

edit: Given that TB I and TB II have different bases, is one of them more forgiving when gluing couplers?

 

[neil_w]

For couplers, white glue or epoxy are good.

 

[Sandy H.]

[snip]
I do however know a bit about CAs, having researched them in-depth through development/FDA premarketing approval of new CA formulations for biomed/surgical purposes. Still amazes me that folks actually buy "accelerator" sprays when it costs about a nickel to make a gallon...
[/snip]

If you want to expound on the accelerator either here, on a new thread or via PM, I'd be interested. When doing pen turning, CA and accelerator is one of the finishes people use. I was never good at it and would like to learn more about CA and curing it effectively. I'm ok at using it with rocketry, so not completely on topic.

Sandy.

 

[CalebJ]

never thought about sealing fins with it, isn't it pretty tough to sand and overkill for filling in the wood grain?

As someone else mentioned, a little goes a long way. I mixed 18 grams when I was filling fins on the Cherokee H and the Star Orbiter. There was a little left over, and a large portion of that does get sanded off. It's a miniscule added weight in the end, and it leaves a fantastic finish.

 

[SharkWhisperer]

If you want to expound on the accelerator either here, on a new thread or via PM, I'd be interested. When doing pen turning, CA and accelerator is one of the finishes people use. I was never good at it and would like to learn more about CA and curing it effectively. I'm ok at using it with rocketry, so not completely on topic.

Sandy.

Any weak base is sufficient to initiate rapid cyanoacrylate polymerization. Of pretty much any CA formulation or combination. Even the hydroxyl ion in water (recommend distilled). A dilute solution of sodium bicarbonate will do the trick, though water's pretty effective by itself. I use 0.5% sodium bicarb (good ol' Arm n Hammer baking soda) in deionized/distilled water in a fine-misting atomizer. Grocery store distilled water is fine; that's probably what's used as solvent in hobbyist CA accelerant products. For a given CA formulation, if you're very worried about final tensile strength then the accelerant type/concentration requires optimization, because too fast of polymerization gives a weaker solidified product. And concentrated accelerant applied topically will give non-uniform polymerization across the final product because the accelerant solidifies the outer layers of CA, which then acts as a barrier to additional accelerant access to the CA deeper in the bond. Not really critical if you just want to speed up drying, like pinning a fin back on in the field.

More complicated adhesive formulations containing multiple CAs, new CAs with branched, cyclic, or oxygenated alkane (R) groups, or with various additives to adjust polymerization speed and glue viscosity exist for CAs, but you're not likely to find these (except perhaps viscosity modifiers) in the hardware store products. Those are mostly developed for task-specific industrial applications and in development for medical purposes. Almost all hardware store and hobbyist CAs are quick polymerizing short-chain (methyl, ethyl, or butyl) CAs. If it gets warm or gives off visible vapor/odor (often formaldehyde) when drying in bulk, it's likely methyl or ethyl based. Pure n-butyl CA, slightly longer-chained, is still mildly exothermic.

Edit/addition: Was talking with a bud who loves FastCap "2P-10" CAs in various viscosities. Checked it out and all viscosities are ethyl-CA, per above. The fast-evaporating aerosol can accelerant is butane/propane-propelled, acetone-solubilized (dissolves styrene nosecones...), benzenamine. The last is the accelerant--a highly basic amine (amine groups are basic hydrogen acceptors). So that's an example of an organic basic CA accelerant, with a fast-drying solvent if treated materials are acetone-resistant. Also avoids potential warpage/wetting of wood/cardboard from water-based accelerants (if laid on too thickly).

The basic amine group is also responsible for the stabilizing activity of diphenylamine that's commonly added to smokeless powder for firearms and woodworking lacquers, often repurposed as nitrocellulose lacquer for various fire-transfer purposes including occasionally ignition devices. NC is notorious for degrading over time. It loves to lose its nitration status by shedding nitrogen oxides that form an acidic environment that feeds back and accelerates degradation. The basic amine inclusion dampens this reaction.

 

[SharkWhisperer]

edit: Given that TB I and TB II have different bases, is one of them more forgiving when gluing couplers?

According to the TB website, TBI (Original) and TBIII both have longer working/drying times than TBII.

Though I love TBII, you're at risk using it for couplers if it's not thinned down a bit (water's fine) or you don't move like The Flash :=) TBII is not very forgiving for that specific purpose--large delicate thin cardboard surfaces. Undiluted, it'll grab your coupler faster than you can yank it out if it goes in slightly misaligned or not rammed to final depth at in once quick instance... As others have mentioned, that's when the Elmer's (or whatever white glue is at hand) comes in handy...