Thoughts on the middle east conflicts.

[NTP2]

This thread has really gotten out of hand, I move that it be put on pause (like the Ukraine thread)

 

[boatgeek]

Wow...typical small minded when you jump straight to "you're a racist!" So let me break it down for you...not every observation has to do with race. It's just an observation and in the context that there are Arabs in Israel just like there are blacks in Alabama. A lot/some/many of those of those Arabs observed in Israel work in the service industry as do many/some/a lot of blacks in Alabama work in the service industry. That fact that you, by your arrogance and hyperbole, confine them "only" to the service industry is telling. Check yourself.

And no, I've never trained with the Alabama National Guard and I didn't "edit" anything...you did with your words.

I edited the post above to make it clear that they aren't your words. I thought that would be clear from context, but sure. For the record, I wasn't trying to imply anything about your service record or you personally.

What I'm saying is that it is rarely coincidental when one ethnic group occupies almost all service jobs and no other jobs. I also believe that it's rarely the case that this is the result of explicit racism ("I want to keep ***** down!"). You may not have even noticed. Certainly nobody brought it up.

It just struck me when you mentioned it before how similar it was to a shipyard in the bayous of Louisiana that I went to for work 20 years ago. After about the fourth yard visit, I realized that there were four general tiers of workers. The folks pushing brooms were all Black. The moderately skilled workers (eg welders and pipefitters) were a mix of Black and white. High skilled workers (eg electricians and engine techs) and engineering/management were all white. At a private club where the yard took us to dinner, the maitre d' was white and all of the waitstaff and bussers were Black. After I noticed it, it showed up everywhere. Again, I don't think that anybody was explicitly racist in hiring decisions, but more likely they wanted someone who "looked the part."

For the record, I was back at that yard recently, and it was far more mixed at all levels of workers.

 

[jqavins]

I edited the post above to make it clear that they aren't your words. I thought that would be clear from context, but sure. For the record, I wasn't trying to imply anything about your service record or you personally.

What I'm saying is that it is rarely coincidental when one ethnic group occupies almost all service jobs and no other jobs. I also believe that it's rarely the case that this is the result of explicit racism ("I want to keep ***** down!"). You may not have even noticed. Certainly nobody brought it up.

It just struck me when you mentioned it before how similar it was to a shipyard in the bayous of Louisiana that I went to for work 20 years ago. After about the fourth yard visit, I realized that there were four general tiers of workers. The folks pushing brooms were all Black. The moderately skilled workers (eg welders and pipefitters) were a mix of Black and white. High skilled workers (eg electricians and engine techs) and engineering/management were all white. At a private club where the yard took us to dinner, the maitre d' was white and all of the waitstaff and bussers were Black. After I noticed it, it showed up everywhere. Again, I don't think that anybody was explicitly racist in hiring decisions, but more likely they wanted someone who "looked the part."

For the record, I was back at that yard recently, and it was far more mixed at all levels of workers.

There are more concrete reasons than "looking the part" (though that may be some of it) that are way beyond the scope of this thread (historical, economic, etc. etc.) I think that what @boatgeek was trying to say is that there are probably some of the same factors at play in what jobs the Arab citizens, non-citizen residents, and temporary or commuting workers have in Israel. So to make that comparison:

Let's [all] take a quick [collective] look in the mirror...

When I was training the IAF and being trained by the IAF a bit of time ago, one of the things I noticed was a lot, if not all of the service workers in Israel were Arab.

Now consider how it sounds when [one edits it] slightly:

When [some hypothetical person] was training the Alabama Air National Guard a bit of time ago, one of the things [s/he] noticed was that a lot, if not all of the service workers in Alabama were Black.

Is that better?

 

[Donnager]

This thread has really gotten out of hand, I move that it be put on pause (like the Ukraine thread)

Agreed.

When you have a group that can rationalize Hamas' activity and condemn Israel, it does appear that we have a media conundrum, or perhaps a media coup.

I'm going to duck out of this, but before I do, think about this.....

Around 2001, terrorists were allowed by the FAA to go through some level of pilot school, they then went on to crash two planes into two large buildings in NY. They also crashed a third one into the Pentagon (you might remember this, if you're old enough). Tongue in cheek......

Our response was to play desert whack-a-mole for about a decade or so to remove every single problem child, much in the same fashion as Israel is doing as a result of attacks on their country (or area of influence). They are just more efficient, it's a smaller area, they are trying to handle the problem quickly, and make their people safe as quickly as possible.
I can't blame them, and again, I don't understand when Israel became the aggressor, except by media. Was the US the aggressor when they retaliated for 9/11?

 

[NTP2]

Was the US the aggressor when they retaliated for 9/11?

Depends, for killing the man responsible, no we were not. If you mean invading and holding an entire country then yes.

Ps what @boatgeek said.

 

[boatgeek]

Agreed.

When you have a group that can rationalize Hamas' activity and condemn Israel, it does appear that we have a media conundrum, or perhaps a media coup.

Nobody here is rationalizing Hamas' behavior. We are asking Israel not to become Hamas.

I'm going to duck out of this, but before I do, think about this.....

Around 2001, terrorists were allowed by the FAA to go through some level of pilot school, they then went on to crash two planes into two large buildings in NY. They also crashed a third one into the Pentagon (you might remember this, if you're old enough). Tongue in cheek......

Oh, I'm old enough. The question is do you remember the effects...

Our response was to play desert whack-a-mole for about a decade or so to remove every single problem child, much in the same fashion as Israel is doing as a result of attacks on their country (or area of influence). They are just more efficient, it's a smaller area, they are trying to handle the problem quickly, and make their people safe as quickly as possible.

How well did that work to remove extremists from Iraq and Afghanistan? Last I checked, ISIS and Iran-backed militias were still active in Iraq and the Taliban controls Afghanistan. ISIS has also expanded across North Africa. Israel is going to have the same amount of luck destroying Hamas person by person. As the princess said, the more you tighten your grip, the more [worlds] will slip through your fingers. Winning against insurgents always takes a political settlement of some kind. You can't kill them all because your military campaign will continue to radicalize other people.

I can't blame them, and again, I don't understand when Israel became the aggressor, except by media. Was the US the aggressor when they retaliated for 9/11?

The difference is that the US actively tried to avoid civilian casualties and paid restitution to people caught in the cross fire. We punished people responsible for war crimes (eg Abu Ghraib). Israel has done little of that, and shows no interest in reining in war crimes by its forces. That tends to knock a country off of its pedestal.

Hamas is worse, but that doesn't mean that Israel is good.

 

[jqavins]

Nobody here is rationalizing Hamas' behavior. We are asking Israel not to become Hamas...

This. A hundred time this.

The difference is that the US actively tried to avoid civilian casualties and paid restitution to people caught in the cross fire. We punished people responsible for war crimes (eg Abu Ghraib). Israel has done little of that, and shows no interest in reining in war crimes by its forces. That tends to knock a country off of its pedestal.

Hamas is worse, but that doesn't mean that Israel is good.

And a hundred times this, too.

 

[rcktnut]

Israel has gotten out of hand, the least they can do is let the aid get into Gaza. I think what they are doing is going to bring lots of new Hamas recruits in the future. The young men seeing their family members being killed and starving to death will be out for revenge. The IDF is cutting the wrong part of the snake off, has to go for the head.

 

[Dotini]

In about 4-5 months, look for Israel to invade Lebanon.

 

[DEmery]

2004 if you want a date.

There are no Jewish settlements in Gaza. Israel was not in Gaza when the war started.

As an unrelated aside, I was in Israel and the West Bank in September, left 8 days before the shooting started. Stayed in Bethlehem (area A). At the Shepherd’s Fields there was a Palestinian teenager with a lamb you could pay to take a picture with. He had on black sweatpants with an AK47 on the leg.

 

[boatgeek]

He had on black sweatpants with an AK47 on the leg.

How many Americans wear sweatpants or hoodies with AR-15s? It’s not like gun culture is unique to that area.

 

[OzHybrid]

There are no Jewish settlements in Gaza. Israel was not in Gaza when the war started.

As an unrelated aside, I was in Israel and the West Bank in September, left 8 days before the shooting started. Stayed in Bethlehem (area A). At the Shepherd’s Fields there was a Palestinian teenager with a lamb you could pay to take a picture with. He had on black sweatpants with an AK47 on the leg.

( I have made statements based on nationalist rather than religious observations. I have some Jewish friends, some non Jewish friends. None of them agree that this nonsense should continue.)
Reality does not agree with your statement of the absence of Israeli settlers and at no point have I mentioned Jewish settlers, in the Gaza Strip.
A bit like the ship that was sunk did not contain Ammonium Nitrate intended to be used as fertilizer..........
The world is not blind....... an algal bloom is the least of the worst things AN can be used for.
It's also not blind to the Beirut explosion on the opposite side of the AN coin.....
The expression 2 wrongs don't make a right would be appropriate. But in this case, historically, 15 wrongs don't make a right would seem more appropriate or more recently 30 wrongs don't make a right...... or if we equate it to the remaining captives 300:1. But if the 100 get released... 3000:1??


Having lived through the IRA war against the British government and used the London underground both on the day of bombings and the day after. I can attest to the fact that NO ONE wins from this nonsense. The only way these things can be resolved is by honesty and a willingness to move on and forward.
Currently, the only solution would be a wall between the 2 land areas and a UN peacekeeping mission prepared to shoot both sides for infractions. Not what we have at the moment where the Israeli peacekeeping force inflict their peace on one side only..... my 2C.

 

[DEmery]

If anyone believes the 30,000 death figure from Hamas, there is no reasoning with them. That number completely made up, just like when Hamas sent a rocket into the hospital parking lot.

 

[jqavins]

If anyone believes the 30,000 death figure from Hamas, there is no reasoning with them. That number completely made up, just like when Hamas sent a rocket into the hospital parking lot.

Evidence? Or just the assumption that everything Hamas says is a lie (which may be true)?

And is Hamas the sole source of that number?

 

[OzHybrid]

If anyone believes the 30,000 death figure from Hamas, there is no reasoning with them. That number completely made up, just like when Hamas sent a rocket into the hospital parking lot.

Just like when Israel forced the entire population of Gaza into a corner of Gaza and dropped bombs on them.
Current estimates say that of the 30000+ dead, 12000 are children. As a lot of bodies are still under concrete, expect that number to increase.
Try watching some news that's not giving you an echo chamber.
France 24
DW
DD (INDIA)
BBC
ABC
CBC
PBS
AL JAZEERA

 

[jderimig]

Israel can stop the destruction and killing anytime they want. So can Hamas. If they really cared about Gaza civilians (they don't). It can be argued that Israel cares more about Gaza women and children than Hamas does.

 

[OzHybrid]

Israel can stop the destruction and killing anytime they want. So can Hamas. If they really cared about Gaza civilians (they don't). It can be argued that Israel cares more about Gaza women and children than Hamas does.

Telling a population that an area is safe to move to and then dropping bombs into that area negates that humanitarian Israeli argument. A bit like saying there are NO restrictions on food going in but not removing the Israeli protestors blocking the trucks.

 

[PhilC]

The best analogy I can think of is this.
In the UK the "war" between the IRA and the UK government was ended by negotiation. Not by bulldozing Northern Ireland. But the borders of Northern Ireland don't keep moving. So it's easier to know where you can plant your crops in NI.
A lasting peace is the best defence for both sides.

Not a good analogy. The IRA was an internal terrorist group in a state of insurrection. Its political wing, Sinn Fein, supported their insurrection by legitimate political means. They were opposed by other terrorist groups who wished to support the union between Northern Ireland and mainland Britain. The UK was unlikely to bulldoze its own territory. It deployed armed forces in support of the police, but that just provided more targets for the IRA. Unlike Gaza there wasn’t an external state actor supporting the IRA for most of ‘the troubles’.
You’re right in that both sides realised that the only solution was through negotiation, with US senator George Mitchell acting as an intermediary between the terrorist groups and the Britsh and Irish governments.

 

[OzHybrid]

Not a good analogy. The IRA was an internal terrorist group in a state of insurrection. Its political wing, Sinn Fein, supported their insurrection by legitimate political means. They were opposed by other terrorist groups who wished to support the union between Northern Ireland and mainland Britain. The UK was unlikely to bulldoze its own territory. It deployed armed forces in support of the police, but that just provided more targets for the IRA. Unlike Gaza there wasn’t an external state actor supporting the IRA for most of ‘the troubles’.
You’re right in that both sides realised that the only solution was through negotiation, with US senator George Mitchell acting as an intermediary between the terrorist groups and the Britsh and Irish governments.

It was a war against an organisation that had been called a terrorist organisation that ended in peace. Best one I could find.

 

[jderimig]

Telling a population that an area is safe to move to and then dropping bombs into that area negates that humanitarian Israeli argument. A bit like saying there are NO restrictions on food going in but not removing the Israeli protestors blocking the trucks.

War is hell. Hamas can end it and the killing. Hamas can stop hiding with the civilians and sacrificing them (but they don't care about them). Hamas can agree to the cease fire option on the table and provide a list of remain live hostages. Innocent Gazan's blood is on the hands of Hamas. The death of innocent Gazan's to Hamas is feature, not a bug.

 

[boatgeek]

War is hell. Hamas can end it and the killing. Hamas can stop hiding with the civilians and sacrificing them (but they don't care about them). Hamas can agree to the cease fire option on the table and provide a list of remain live hostages. Innocent Gazan's blood is on the hands of Hamas. The death of innocent Gazan's to Hamas is feature, not a bug.

My first thought on this was a little snarky:

"War is hell. Ukraine can end the killing at any time by agreeing to Putin's terms. Putin cares more about Ukraine's women and children than Zelenskyy does."

or

"If she just showed me a little respect, I wouldn't have to show her who's boss."

For the record, I'm not saying that you support Putin or that you're a wife-beater. But you're using the "But Billy started it!" argument. As if Hamas just forced Israel to shoot unarmed civilians on announced evacuation routes, shell aid convoys waiting at IDF checkpoints, etc. Yes, there is blood on Hamas' hands. That doesn't mean that Israel's are clean.

As far as the cease fire on the table, it seems like the sticking point is IDF withdrawal from Gaza. Hamas has at least one very good reason for demanding IDF withdrawal that has nothing to do with rearming. The IDF's rules of engagement are to shoot to kill without warning any man approaching them*. No exceptions. That's why the escaped hostages were killed. That also extends to women and children at times. If the IDF stays in Gaza, then they're going to keep killing civilians who happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. That may or may not be what's motivating Hamas, but it's still a good reason.

* Before you start, yes I know that this is because of suicide bombers. It's still a war crime to shoot someone carrying a white flag. Anyone who knows is welcome to compare and contrast whether the US rules of engagement gave warning shots to suspected suicide bombers in Iraq or Afghanistan.

 

[CalebJ]

* Before you start, yes I know that this is because of suicide bombers. It's still a war crime to shoot someone carrying a white flag. Anyone who knows is welcome to compare and contrast whether the US rules of engagement gave warning shots to suspected suicide bombers in Iraq or Afghanistan.

At least in 2008, there was a clear escalation of force guideline for using small flares, warning shots, etc when I was in Iraq. We discussed it regularly before leaving the wire on convoys.

 

[DEmery]

Evidence? Or just the assumption that everything Hamas says is a lie (which may be true)?

And is Hamas the sole source of that number?

Every report of casualties states the data is from the Gaza Health Ministry, that is run by Hamas. There are no independent sources for casualites.

Everything Hamas says is a lie, they are a propaganda machine. For example, look at when the Hamas rocket hit the Al-Ahli Arab hospital parking lot. Gaza Health Ministry said Israel bombed the hospital and that 500 people died, later revised to 471, 342 people injured. No one has been able to verify that number, but that would be an increadibly high death to injury ratio. Most outside estimates are 100 to 200 killed. And the consensus is that it was an errant Hamas rocket.

 

[boatgeek]

It was a war against an organisation that had been called a terrorist organisation that ended in peace. Best one I could find.

The ANC was also called a terrorist organization, both by the US and South Africa.

 

[boatgeek]

At least in 2008, there was a clear escalation of force guideline for using small flares, warning shots, etc when I was in Iraq. We discussed it regularly before leaving the wire on convoys.

Thanks. I had seen references to escalating force but didn’t know what the steps were. Did you have specific procedures for dealing with people ostensibly surrendering who may have been packing a suicide vest? It may not have been the right time in the war for that.

 

[jderimig]

My first thought on this was a little snarky:

"War is hell. Ukraine can end the killing at any time by agreeing to Putin's terms. Putin cares more about Ukraine's women and children than Zelenskyy does."

In your {ridiculous} metaphor, who is Ukraine, Hamas or Israel?

I wasn't defending Israel, I was just adding some balance to the recent posts by pointing out the Hamas is just as or maybe more responsible for the humanitarian misfortune of Gazan civilians.

 

[boatgeek]

In your {ridiculous} metaphor, who is Ukraine, Hamas or Israel?

I wasn't defending Israel, I was just adding some balance to the recent posts by pointing out the Hamas is just as or maybe more responsible for the humanitarian misfortune of Gazan civilians.

In that framing, Ukraine is Hamas. The words coming out of the Kremlin pre-war aren’t that different from those out of Jerusalem in the immediate aftermath of 10/7. I agree that framing Ukraine as equivalent to Hamas is ridiculous, but I think it also points to your argument having some holes.

Assigning blame for the numbers of Gaza’s civilians killed is kind of a fools’s errand. Do you blame Israel for committing war crimes? Do you blame Hamas for kicking the current conflict off on 10/7? Do you blame Israel for supporting Hamas pre-10/7? The Palestinian Authority for corruption that made Hamas look good by comparison before the last election? Or Balfour for giving away land that wasn’t his in 1917?

Sure, the proximate cause of much of the suffering is Hamas’ invasion on 10/7 and their use of human shields. Maybe even most of the suffering. But Israel does bear blame too. And nobody is making either side commit war crimes—they’re both doing that all on their own.

 

[boatgeek]

I guess the biggest problem for me is that moral relativism is rampant on both sides. For every action that we (rightfully) condemn Hamas for, it is easy to find instances of Israel doing the same. Militarizing civilian facilities, deliberately targeting civilians, even raping prisoners. Maybe Israel does it with somewhat less glee, but it’s definitely with the same impunity.

So if we condemn Hamas for doing those things, what does that mean about Israel?

 

[jderimig]

I guess the biggest problem for me is that moral relativism is rampant on both sides. For every action that we (rightfully) condemn Hamas for, it is easy to find instances of Israel doing the same. Militarizing civilian facilities, deliberately targeting civilians, even raping prisoners. Maybe Israel does it with somewhat less glee, but it’s definitely with the same impunity.

So if we condemn Hamas for doing those things, what does that mean about Israel?

That's fair.

 

[OzHybrid]

We are all a product of our environment. From the Palestinian perspective, they see Israel as an aggressor. The Israelis see the Palestinians as the aggressor. Israel sees everyone as an agressor. When military service is compulsory and is localised and encompasses actions against Palestine and defending Israel against Palestine, the outcome is that Palestinians can only be perceived as aggressors by the majority of Israelis. And yet Israelis democratically protest and get hit by water cannons from their own government. So even with situational reinforcement, some Israelis can see the bigger picture

But Israel has managed to commit genocide against the Palestinians. This started when the Israeli settlers moved into Gaza and it was declared by the UN as a war crime, but it was not enforced. Unfortunately, the UN can only act with the approval of all its members. Not the majority.
Looking at it externally, it's a mess. I blame the British.....Who promised the same land to both groups.

But while we were paying attention to this...... India moved 10,000 troops to its border with China. The Philipines had a water argument with China and the war in Ukraine continues. So let's all make sure we've got our eye on the ball(s) and don't get distracted.

The Suez Canal is already doomed due to global warming and a lack of water to supply it........but global warming is not real.......