Thermodynamics!

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instead of trying to get a heat pump to extract heat when it's very very cold outside, it just makes so much more sense to dig a hole and put the coil down in the ground and use geothermal heat where it is a constant 55 degrees all year round. geothermal is the largest energy source that we have and we haven't even begun to scratch the surface of using the heat and energy that is available to us from it.
This. The only way to extract heat from cold air using a heat pump is to put something even colder out there to drove the heat into. There aren't too many working fluids that can do that economically and safely.

But "scratch the suface" of geothermal? Talk about a dad joke!
 
instead of trying to get a heat pump to extract heat when it's very very cold outside, it just makes so much more sense to dig a hole and put the coil down in the ground and use geothermal heat where it is a constant 55 degrees all year round. geothermal is the largest energy source that we have and we haven't even begun to scratch the surface of using the heat and energy that is available to us from it.
Getting a heat pump to work better in cold climates is not rocket science. 2 stage compressors and a big outside evaporator (more copper and aluminum) is well known practice. You still have the limits of Carnot efficiency, there is no getting around the loss of COP as the working temperature difference rises. This is just a pork barrel government spending project to reward political donors.
 
The DOE should be funding nat.gas cogeneration furnaces. There was some private sector activity on this using microturbines, Primarily a material science problem and needs development of economical ceramic turbine blade manufacturing tech. Your nat gas runs a turbine that generates electricity and the waste heat is used to heat your house or building. Reduces the electrical load on the grid (or best case exports to the grid) when heating load is the highest.
 
instead of trying to get a heat pump to extract heat when it's very very cold outside, it just makes so much more sense to dig a hole and put the coil down in the ground and use geothermal heat where it is a constant 55 degrees all year round. geothermal is the largest energy source that we have and we haven't even begun to scratch the surface of using the heat and energy that is available to us from it.
I suspect even the most efficient, ideal heat pump, would still be cheaper than digging holes. Anyone know how much it is to install geothermal at home these days? Anything else preventing geo from being everywhere?

Getting a heat pump to work better in cold climates is not rocket science.
Neither is running but they still have it as an olympic competition. There are all sorts of scientific/tech competitions like this. The X-prize for Suborbital Spaceflight was a famous one I more or less followed a while ago but they have many other challenges now. The DOE has something similar for heat pumps is what I'm learning. Plenty more I bet.
 
A geothermal system and a heat pump system have a somewhat similar price. According to Modernize.com, the average cost for a heat pump is between $3,875 and $10,000.

And according to Homeadviser.com, the average price for a geothermal heat pump is between $3,592 and $15,578.

But, a geothermal system lasts almost twice as long as a heat pump. Energy.gov has stated that a geothermal system lasts around 25 years. And a heat pump lasts for about 15 years, according to a range of sources, such as here and here.

Also, a geothermal heat pump uses 25% to 50% less electricity than a heat pump. So, you’ll spend 25% to 50% less on electricity month on month.

I previously researched how the SEER rating of a heat pump affects how much electricity it uses in this article. As part of my research, I found that a 50% reduction in energy consumption over a whole year is roughly equal to $600 a year.

Using that math, each year, a geothermal system will save you between $300 and $600. Although these are good savings each year, you’ll also get a considerable saving after 15 years, when it comes time to replace a heat pump.

Based on all of this information, I did a side by side comparison of how the cost savings will add up over the life of your heat pump .

YearHeat pump costGeothermal system costEnergy savingNet saving (average)
1$3,875 – $10,000$3,592 to $15,578$300 to $600$450
2$300 to $600$900
3$300 to $600$1350
4$300 to $600$1800
5$300 to $600$2250
6$300 to $600$2700
7$300 to $600$3150
As you can see, the cost-saving adds up, and at around year 15, you save a lot because you’ll need to replace your heat pump, which costs an additional $3,875 to $10,000.
 
I think I mentioned this before, if so sorry for the repeat. I live on an old dairy farm and there were numerous wells around the house & barn. In the late 1990s or early 2000s the state was offering to plug old wells to prevent ground water contamination. Seemed like the reasonable thing to do at the time. But if I had know about geothermal heat pumps then I would not have plugged the two closest to the house. Both were within 100' of the house. But as they say, hindsight is 20/20.
 
A geothermal system and a heat pump system have a somewhat similar price. According to Modernize.com, the average cost for a heat pump is between $3,875 and $10,000.

And according to Homeadviser.com, the average price for a geothermal heat pump is between $3,592 and $15,578.

But, a geothermal system lasts almost twice as long as a heat pump. Energy.gov has stated that a geothermal system lasts around 25 years. And a heat pump lasts for about 15 years, according to a range of sources, such as here and here.

Also, a geothermal heat pump uses 25% to 50% less electricity than a heat pump. So, you’ll spend 25% to 50% less on electricity month on month.

I previously researched how the SEER rating of a heat pump affects how much electricity it uses in this article. As part of my research, I found that a 50% reduction in energy consumption over a whole year is roughly equal to $600 a year.

Using that math, each year, a geothermal system will save you between $300 and $600. Although these are good savings each year, you’ll also get a considerable saving after 15 years, when it comes time to replace a heat pump.

Based on all of this information, I did a side by side comparison of how the cost savings will add up over the life of your heat pump .

YearHeat pump costGeothermal system costEnergy savingNet saving (average)
1$3,875 – $10,000$3,592 to $15,578$300 to $600$450
2$300 to $600$900
3$300 to $600$1350
4$300 to $600$1800
5$300 to $600$2250
6$300 to $600$2700
7$300 to $600$3150
As you can see, the cost-saving adds up, and at around year 15, you save a lot because you’ll need to replace your heat pump, which costs an additional $3,875 to $10,000.
This is straying from teh thread a little bit, but one challenge in getting people to do these kinds of upgrades is that most people don't plan to live in a single house for more than 5-10 years. If people bought and held, the economics would be different. Unfortunately, that also goes for when you sell a house. The decision on whether or not to buy is made by the time the buyer has seen the entry, the kitchen, and the master bedroom. It's even worse for new construction--it's really hard to get mass-market builders to install serious energy efficiency because it costs a little bit of extra money and brings no return to them because buyers don't really care.

TL;DR We have lots of problems because on average as a species we're kind of bad at long-term thinking.
 
This is straying from teh thread a little bit, but one challenge in getting people to do these kinds of upgrades is that most people don't plan to live in a single house for more than 5-10 years. If people bought and held, the economics would be different. Unfortunately, that also goes for when you sell a house. The decision on whether or not to buy is made by the time the buyer has seen the entry, the kitchen, and the master bedroom. It's even worse for new construction--it's really hard to get mass-market builders to install serious energy efficiency because it costs a little bit of extra money and brings no return to them because buyers don't really care.

TL;DR We have lots of problems because on average as a species we're kind of bad at long-term thinking.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure we're out at the edge of that Bell curve... we bought a lot and built our house 44 years ago and haven't moved since. The only home we've ever had.
 
I suspect even the most efficient, ideal heat pump, would still be cheaper than digging holes. Anyone know how much it is to install geothermal at home these days? Anything else preventing geo from being everywhere?


Neither is running but they still have it as an olympic competition. There are all sorts of scientific/tech competitions like this. The X-prize for Suborbital Spaceflight was a famous one I more or less followed a while ago but they have many other challenges now. The DOE has something similar for heat pumps is what I'm learning. Plenty more I bet.
I’m too far removed from college thermodynamics class to remember the details, but there are limits to efficiency based on the refrigeration cycle, even with ideal refrigerants. As Scotty says, we canna break the laws of physics.
 
This thread reminded me that I still need to read this book bought years ago. It's only about 100 pages long, but the author warns the reader right away not to expect an easy 100 pages. I told myself "I'll get to that one someday" and "someday" needs to arrive soon.
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This thread reminded me that I still need to read this book bought years ago. It's only about 100 pages long, but the author warns the reader right away not to expect an easy 100 pages. I told myself "I'll get to that one someday" and "someday" needs to arrive soon.
View attachment 553407
The three laws:
1. You can't win.
2. You can't even break even.
3. It'll all zero out in the end.
 
The biggest source of energy we have available on our planet is Geothermal, and we haven't even really utilized it anywhere. There was some activity with ground source heat pumps back in the 80's. No requirements of wind or solar geography.
You can use geothermal if the source is very hot for large scale power generation. The primary difficulties are getting to it and extracting it. It also tends to be very corrosive so you'd either have to filter it or design the system to be able to operate under those conditions.
 
If anyone ever wondered about what's common between a combustion engine, the emergence of life and the evolution of the Universe, well this would qualify:



(also applies to anything else of course)
 
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Heat pumps are the most efficient way to heat/cool a home and in the long run the least expensive.

I have a heat pump, NA gas if I could get it piped to my house was be less.

My Electric company keeps telling me I have the most Electric use in my 'hood. so figger that out as everyone else bought into NA gas 2 decades ago but I did not.
 
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