Shipping already constructed rockets and E/F engines

[GusGrissom]

Hello all,

I am looking forward to a visit with my adult son who lives in Colorado. Endless flat spaces to launch out there. We shared a lot of great father/son moments with this awesome hobby launching rockets here in Florida when he was a kid growing up.

I would like to pre ship a lot of my constructed rockets and engines out there for my upcoming trip. The thing is, a lot of these things are made to look like missiles and in this post 911 era I was just wondering if this is a good idea. For instance, I have an Estes Doorknob painted in a V-2 color scheme. If the box was x-rayed it certainly would raise an eyebrow. Does anyone have any experience with this?

I already have a ton of engines and I would hate to have to buy more when I'm out there. Would I have to mark the box in any way? What about the hazmat fee? Does that only apply to commercial shippers? I certainly wouldn't want get my son in trouble because they would be addressed to him. Any ideas or if anyone has any experience would be helpful. Should I mark the box "inert toy rockets"?

Thank you all in advance so much for any advice or experience you may have.

 

[mh9162013]

It's my understanding that you, as an individual, may NOT ship engines, BP or composite. This applies if you're using UPS, USPS, FedEx or other commercial shippers. I think only specially designated commercial entities can ship model rocket engines.

As for the rockets themselves, I've never heard of anyone having trouble shipping them when they're already built.

EDIT: I added the word "not." Thank you @dhbarr for pointing out my mistake.

 

[dhbarr]

It's my understanding that you, as an individual, may _NOT_ ship engines, BP or composite.

I think the word "not" escaped the first sentence, so I added it here. My apologies if I'm misrepresenting.

 

[DragonRocketry]

Shipping fully built rockets is not a problem. I do it all the time and have never been questioned about what I was shipping. Now motors you cannot ship.

 

[GusGrissom]

I think the word "not" escaped the first sentence, so I added it here. My apologies if I'm misrepresenting.

I was wondering about that too.

 

[mh9162013]

I think the word "not" escaped the first sentence, so I added it here. My apologies if I'm misrepresenting.

No apologies necessary! That was a typo on my part. I originally wrote "may not" then changed it to "can not" then wanted to change it back to "may not." Looks like I left out the word "not."

Sorry for any confusion, OP.

 

[GusGrissom]

Allright, thanks for the advice.

 

[86mustang408w]

I used to work for UPS, if your going to ship the rockets I'd build a wooden box, or buy a heart plastic tote and pack it well. Some cheaper gun cases would work. That you could take in the plane but checked. As far shipping motors you'll get hit with a hazmat if you're honest. Guys will say " they don't know what you're shipping if you don't tell them". True, but jail time or fines isn't worth shipping a box. I would buy some motors and have them shipped to someone out there.

 

[GusGrissom]

Sound advice, thanks.

 

[GusGrissom]

Just so I'm clear, as a private individual, even if I declare I'm shipping model rocket engines and offer to pay the hazmat fee I am not allowed to?

 

[Titan II]

Just so I'm clear, as a private individual, even if I declare I'm shipping model rocket engines and offer to pay the hazmat fee I am not allowed to?

You have already been given inaccurate info. This may help.

https://www.nar.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Shipping-Rocket-Motors.pdf

 

[GusGrissom]

Thank you.

 

[smstachwick]

Just so I'm clear, as a private individual, even if I declare I'm shipping model rocket engines and offer to pay the hazmat fee I am not allowed to?

I believe that shipping motors requires notification of, and permission granted by, the Postmaster General (or a person working in that office) like 6 weeks in advance plus some processing fees.

I don’t know if that’s precisely correct, I just know that it’s technically possible but not generally worth it. You’ll want to ask your shippers’ local offices if you just have way too much time on your hands and want to try this the hard way.

Tip: Rocketry is a niche hobby and the Venn diagram of those who know both rocketry and the postal regulations is bound to be only a few dozen people at most. Of the remainder, a fair number *will* dismiss your request out of hand without checking, so plan to ask about half a dozen places before you get somebody who does their homework.

A far better solution would be to order motors from a retailer and have them shipped to your son’s home. You can dispose of any that you don’t use and he doesn’t want lying around by soaking them in water overnight (Estes motors) or by igniting them stuck into the ground, nozzle up, like a Roman candle (composites). I’ve seen a few high-power guys with unwanted reload grains throwing them into a fire pit too, but please be careful with this. You don’t want to lose your handsome eyebrows!

Ignition systems purely for disposal are not hard to make, a pair of alligator clips attached to 30 ft leads, then touch the other ends to the terminals on a drill battery to complete the circuit and fire the igniter.

Shipping just the airframes should be fine. For a while we had a project going with a rocket that would travel around the country to different users in a flat rate box!

EDIT: Didn’t see the NAR link above. That looks to be in order, I’ll have to remember that. My comments that I have not struck through still stand.

 

[GusGrissom]

Thanks for all the responses and the NAR link. As it turns out, Estes is waiving hazmat fees right now, and, they are offering a pretty decent discount code now as well, discount code LAUNCH2023, so I am just going to purchase more engines and ship them out there to my son. Kinda sucks when I have so many engines at my home and so few places to launch here to use them, but it is what it is. Looking forward to my trip, and to launching the Saturn V Skylab I just built.

 

[mh9162013]

You have already been given inaccurate info. This may help.

https://www.nar.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Shipping-Rocket-Motors.pdf

Is that a 9 year old document?

 

[Zbench]

Is that a 9 year old document?

And it isn’t accurate either. I’m a private individual and I can ship all classes of hazardous materials that FedEx will accept as outlined in their hazardous materials table.

Facts:

Anyone can open a FedEx account

Anyone can pay $150 and take their online hazmat course and be certified to ship hazardous materials

Anyone can order for free all the required documents and labels to ship hazardous materials from FedEx

Anyone can call FedEx’s free hazardous materials helpline and ask advice on how to make their shipment DOT compliant

Is this process exacting and does it take time? Yes.

Is it impossible for a private individual as the NAR document makes out? Absolutely not!

Whoever wrote that article should pull it down.

 

[tbonerocketeer]

And it isn’t accurate either. I’m a private individual and I can ship all classes of hazardous materials that FedEx will accept as outlined in their hazardous materials table.

Facts:

Anyone can open a FedEx account

Anyone can pay $150 and take their online hazmat course and be certified to ship hazardous materials

Anyone can order for free all the required documents and labels to ship hazardous materials from FedEx

Anyone can call FedEx’s free hazardous materials helpline and ask advice on how to make their shipment DOT compliant

Is this process exacting and does it take time? Yes.

Is it impossible for a private individual as the NAR document makes out? Absolutely not!

Whoever wrote that article should pull it down.

Depends on what you are shipping too. Just because you took the class does not mean you are legal. Do you have all of the ex numbers? Do you have hazmat certified boxes? Do you have the closing instructions and testing data for the boxes? Without that you don't have certified boxes. Does the item ship under a special permit? If so are you party status to it? If not you cannot use it. If you have party status, do you have a training record for use of it? All of these are things that you must comply with to be able to legally ship, so it's more than just taking $150 class from FedEx.

 

[Zbench]

Stop making everything about seeing the boogey man. The answer to all the questions above is yes. The regulations about closure instructions are not difficult to understand. I use a fiber reinforced wet paper tape which isn’t required but I have one so I use it. The box stipulations are easily met if you buy from Uline as the certification is stamped on the box. People think this hazardous shipping requirement is some unicorn like thing that is impossible to understand. It’s not.

I’m very active in the shooting world where shipping double base smokeless gunpowder happens all the time and without incident. Same for primers and black powder.

As noted above FedEx is very helpful if you call and ask and will not accept your shipment if the paperwork is not correct or the box is not properly packaged. They get fined if your package isn’t properly prepared when offered for pick up just like you do.

Finally, the notice Ron sent does not indicate that only AeroTech itself can ship under this exception. If this were true, how could Estes use the same exception? They are different companies and the EX numbers are different for the hazard classes we are talking about.

 

[tbonerocketeer]

Stop making everything about seeing the boogey man. The answer to all the questions above is yes. The regulations about closure instructions are not difficult to understand. I use a fiber reinforced wet paper tape which isn’t required but I have one so I use it. The box stipulations are easily met if you buy from Uline as the certification is stamped on the box. People think this hazardous shipping requirement is some unicorn like thing that is impossible to understand. It’s not.

I’m very active in the shooting world where shipping double base smokeless gunpowder happens all the time and without incident. Same for primers and black powder.

As noted above FedEx is very helpful if you call and ask and will not accept your shipment if the paperwork is not correct or the box is not properly packaged. They get fined if your package isn’t properly prepared when offered for pick up just like you do.

Finally, the notice Ron sent does not indicate that only AeroTech itself can ship under this exception. If this were true, how could Estes use the same exception? They are different companies and the EX numbers are different for the hazard classes we are talking about.

Uline does not sell packaging rated for explosives, at least none that I have ever found. The paint can boxes specifically state in the instructions that they are not rated for use with explosive material. That's issue number one. Number two- AeroTech is able to ship because they are party status to special permit. 7887. Estes is able to ship because they are party status to 7887 (but right now that appears to be expired). I am able to ship because I'm party status to 7887. Using whatever tape you feel like instead of what it was tested with also makes the box not compliant. If a box is tested with clear 2-in packing tape, that's what has to be used for it to be able to use the 4G stamp. If it's tested with fiber reinforced water activated tape, that's the only tape that can be used to make it a 4G stamped box. Using any other tape or deviating from the instructions deactivates the ability to use the 4G stamp. You may want to look into having a DOT Official come audit your packages so that you can find out for yourself. Been through the audit, the book is 5" thick and they know every page

 

[Zbench]

I can’t opine on the 7887 issue as I have not shipped any rocket motors ever not do I intend to. However, I’ve shipped millions of small arms primers and tons of gunpowder over the years.

As noted above, if you call the FedEx hazard compliance number they give you when you take their training and ask what box to use and how to seal it, they will happily tell you what to buy and how to prepare it. Perhaps the boxes used for primers and smokeless powder are different from rocket motors.

Having said that, the vendors I buy from use paper reinforced tape and regular uline cardboard boxes. Nothing fancy.