Rocket stability(center of mass)

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why then not just leave them down...
because they needed to move up to restore the delta wing stability, creating horrible vortici..

nope... they are meant to create them.. you need some general aviation experience.

Clay, you do not seem to have even a basic understanding of the design principles used on the B-70.

The in-flight folding wingtip on that aircraft was a device to take advantage of supersonic airflow pressures to develop extra lift, and to control and trim the supersonic shift of the aerodynamic center. It had absolutely nothing to do with generating more wingtip vortices.
 
Again, can you cite an actual, specific source? How about a web page? How about a document title? Maybe even a DARPA program name?

You need to be careful about making claims based on someone's viewgraph of a planned development, or a Popular Science article. The only flight hardware experiments that I have seen for the F-18 (or ANY aircraft) involve scabbed-on, fixed, non-movable devices. And they do not generate vortices.

The production F-18 has a fixed wing. I invite you to show a picture of anything else.

i keep stuff up top.. not in my computer.. CJL seems to be familiar perhaps he can show you...
Just google Aerolastic F18 wing
 
Again, can you cite an actual, specific source? How about a web page? How about a document title? Maybe even a DARPA program name?

You need to be careful about making claims based on someone's viewgraph of a planned development, or a Popular Science article. The only flight hardware experiments that I have seen for the F-18 (or ANY aircraft) involve scabbed-on, fixed, non-movable devices. And they do not generate vortices.

The production F-18 has a fixed wing. I invite you to show a picture of anything else.

It's actually kind of an interesting project. The goal of the NASA AAW (Active Aeroelastic Wing) F-18 project is to enable the use of thin, higher aspect wings at high speed by removing some of the structural problems with current supersonic fighters. Specifically, it uses an intentionally flexible wing in conjunction with small, unconventionally located control surfaces such that at high speed, a control surface deflection on the wing actually twists the entire wing. This wing twist is what acts as the primary control, rather than the control surface itself.

Here's the wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_X-53_Active_Aeroelastic_Wing
 
why then not just leave them down...
because they needed to move up to restore the delta wing stability, creating horrible vortici..

They don't just leave them down for a couple of reasons. First, the wingtips would be very close to the ground (possibly even dragging) when it landed. So, clearance is the first reason. Second, the wingtips are a significant portion of the wing area, so with the wingtips down, the wing loading is higher. As a result, the stall speed is higher as well, possibly too high for a safe landing.

It had nothing whatsoever to do with stability.

nope... they are meant to create them.. you need some general aviation experience.

No, they are meant to suppress wingtip vortices. The wingtip vortices have absolutely no impact on aircraft stability, but they have a significant impact on drag. All wingtip devices are designed to try to suppress vortices to reduce this drag.

Also, I have to say, GA experience is nice, but it doesn't actually tell you much about aerodynamics. You can get a pilot's license without ever understanding why your airplane actually flies.
 
It's actually kind of an interesting project. The goal of the NASA AAW (Active Aeroelastic Wing) F-18 project is to enable the use of thin, higher aspect wings at high speed by removing some of the structural problems with current supersonic fighters. Specifically, it uses an intentionally flexible wing in conjunction with small, unconventionally located control surfaces such that at high speed, a control surface deflection on the wing actually twists the entire wing. This wing twist is what acts as the primary control, rather than the control surface itself.

Here's the wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_X-53_Active_Aeroelastic_Wing

somewhere on nasa, they have wings that change cord lenght, with some weird fabric(loosey termed) that would tension as the cord changed. Another boeing enterprise thing, i have forgotten who what where why with that one tho...
 
somewhere on nasa, they have wings that change cord lenght, with some weird fabric(loosey termed) that would tension as the cord changed. Another boeing enterprise thing, i have forgotten who what where why with that one tho...

Nope. They don't have wings that change chord.

They have done experiments with oblique wings and wings that change sweep angle, but never with wings that change chord.
 
They don't just leave them down for a couple of reasons. First, the wingtips would be very close to the ground (possibly even dragging) when it landed. So, clearance is the first reason. Second, the wingtips are a significant portion of the wing area, so with the wingtips down, the wing loading is higher. As a result, the stall speed is higher as well, possibly too high for a safe landing.

It had nothing whatsoever to do with stability.



No, they are meant to suppress wingtip vortices. The wingtip vortices have absolutely no impact on aircraft stability, but they have a significant impact on drag. All wingtip devices are designed to try to suppress vortices to reduce this drag.

Also, I have to say, GA experience is nice, but it doesn't actually tell you much about aerodynamics. You can get a pilot's license without ever understanding why your airplane actually flies.

As a result, the stall speed is higher as well, possibly too high for a safe landing.

It had nothing whatsoever to do with stability.

to me this is contradictory....

wingtip vortex generation is a very explored concept to incresea airspeed over the ends of the wings at low speed. This is like spreading the mass evenly trough a rocket. makes it more easy to handle....
 
They don't just leave them down for a couple of reasons. First, the wingtips would be very close to the ground (possibly even dragging) when it landed. So, clearance is the first reason.

The B-70 would never make it to the ground with its wingtips folded down. It was never designed to fly subsonic in that configuration. It would not balance longitudinally in subsonic flight with the wingtips folded down and the aft wing area effectively removed, as the remaining wing would have a shifted aerodynamic center that would make the aircraft dangerous at best and very likely completely uncontrollable.

The down-folded B-70 outer wing panels also make ineffective a large portion of the flight control surfaces (these were "locked out" when the panels went down), which would also reduce control authority at low speeds. You are right that higher wing loading would not be good, but that factor is somewhere further down the list.
 
As a result, the stall speed is higher as well, possibly too high for a safe landing.

It had nothing whatsoever to do with stability.

to me this is contradictory....

wingtip vortex generation is a very explored concept to incresea airspeed over the ends of the wings at low speed. This is like spreading the mass evenly trough a rocket. makes it more easy to handle....

No, it's not contradictory. When the wingtips are down, the wing area is smaller. As a result, at the same angle of attack and airspeed, lift is reduced. Therefore, the stall speed is higher.

Keep in mind that stall speed and stability are two separate things.

Oh, and as has been stated many times, wingtip vortices are reduced when possible, never reinforced. Also, assuming I'm remembering my aerodynamics correct, increased wingtip vortices would have little to do with the airflow speed on the ends of the wings. It also would not have an effect which would be anything like changing the mass distribution in a rocket.
 
Nope. They don't have wings that change chord.

They have done experiments with oblique wings and wings that change sweep angle, but never with wings that change chord.

just like nepolean Dynomite.. how could anyone even know that anyway....

yes, I have seen windtunnel video of it.

what is an oblique wing? reverse sweep?
 
Keep in mind that stall speed and stability are two separate things.

keep in mind, stall speed and stability are not two separate things... they are tied together like your left and right shoes would be if you were in my class...J/k.. but it made my point.
 
For more clarification on the XB-70, the wingtips were up for low speed, down in varying degrees at high speed. From https://xb70.interceptor.com/

Lowering the wingtips had three distinct effects on the XB-70.
  • Total vertical area was increased, allowing shorter vertical stabilizers than would otherwise be needed.
  • The reduction in rearward wing area countered the delta wing's inherent rearward shift of the center of lift as speed increased, keeping drag-inducing trim corrections to a minimum.
  • Compression lift was 30 percent more effective because the pressure under the wing was better managed.

The dropped wingtips increased compression lift, had nothing to do with vortex creation or elimination.

Advantage CJL.:cheers:
 
which would be anything like changing the mass distribution in a rocket.

just effective at lift distribution, increasing handling. Like mass distribution increases handling in a rocket.
 
keep in mind, stall speed and stability are not two separate things... they are tied together like your left and right shoes would be if you were in my class...J/k.. but it made my point.

Actually, they are two separate things. It's true that some design changes affect both stall speed and stability, but they are not inherently linked. There are aircraft with a low stall speed that are not very stable, and there are aircraft with a low stall speed that are phenomenally stable. Similarly, there are high speed aircraft with great stability, and high speed aircraft with very marginal stability.
 
For more clarification on the XB-70, the wingtips were up for low speed, down in varying degrees at high speed. From https://xb70.interceptor.com/

Lowering the wingtips had three distinct effects on the XB-70.
  • Total vertical area was increased, allowing shorter vertical stabilizers than would otherwise be needed.
  • The reduction in rearward wing area countered the delta wing's inherent rearward shift of the center of lift as speed increased, keeping drag-inducing trim corrections to a minimum.
  • Compression lift was 30 percent more effective because the pressure under the wing was better managed.

The dropped wingtips increased compression lift, had nothing to do with vortex creation or elimination.

Advantage CJL.:cheers:

When they went up, the wingtip votex went through the roof, just ask the test pilot that died, he will tell you all about it.
 
Actually, they are two separate things. It's true that some design changes affect both stall speed and stability, but they are not inherently linked. There are aircraft with a low stall speed that are not very stable, and there are aircraft with a low stall speed that are phenomenally stable. Similarly, there are high speed aircraft with great stability, and high speed aircraft with very marginal stability.

yes, but if you stall you are not stable...
 
When they went up, the wingtip votex went through the roof, just ask the test pilot that died, he will tell you all about it.

Errr. But you were just saying the dropped tips were to GENERATE vortices.

Pick one.
 
Okay, ill put this in text book terms: BY restoring LIFT at the end of the wings or DRASTICALY increasing it, you create vortex.... the guys that fly over here, dont care what you call it in a text book, so it is called vortex generator...​

and they make handeling at low speeds happier...
 
When they went up, the wingtip votex went through the roof, just ask the test pilot that died, he will tell you all about it.

For once, you might have this correct. When the wingtips were drooped, they acted as rudimentary winglets, reducing the wingtip vortex. When they were up, the wing was a low-aspect delta, which has a higher vortex.

Of course, as new2hpr said, this does kind of contradict what you were saying before...

(Also, it was purely an incidental effect. Their purpose was to improve supersonic trim and lift)
 
Errr. But you were just saying the dropped tips were to GENERATE vortices.

Pick one.

LANDING CONFIGURATION... not highspeed configuration...
I have only seen it in person, so its counter intuitive to think they drop more.... to me they were dropped already... dropped should be called "near vertical" landing should be called dropped.
 
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That is a technology that has also been flight-tested on some airliner-sized designs, and has been around for a while (a couple decades?)

Aeroelastic tailoring can be achieved through careful design of the structure (re-optimization of the load paths), by selecting new structural materials (composites behave differently than metals), and by adding flight control system features to "fly" the wing in new ways. There are some definite advantages as well as some fairly dangerous pitfalls.

Aeroelastics can be used for suppression of gust loads, for flutter suppression (to fly to higher speeds, or to fly at the same speed with lighter structure), for spanwise bending relief, and a few others. Generally, none of the published studies have included an honest, realistic assessment of the true benefits of this technology. Key point: if you use these active flight control systems to tailor the wing modes and control unwanted deflections, and then if you also take out part of the wing structure weight to "cash in" on the improved wing, and if you are flying "at speed" and experience ANY failure anywhere in the control system (hydraulic failure, electric power failure, FCS failure, air data system failure, etc) that is non-redundant and instantly online, your aircraft will immediately be at an inflight failure condition...because you took part of the structure out. All it takes is one little blip, hiccup, hangup, etc, and the wing will flutter to destruction.

The full impact of implementing this technology (and reducing wing structural weight) is that all "system level" components must now be designed with full redundancy and instant availability. The cost of this is additional power supplies, additional compute power, additional air data sources, etc, and they must all be operating at full capacity at all times to be ready to step in after a failure. Even then, while in failure mode, the aircraft would only have a single level of operating safety (non-redundant) which is an unacceptable safety feature, even if it only applies to the few moments it would take to slow down to a "safe" flight speed for the structure. When you add up all the costs of installing and operating the additional systems, it is far less expensive to just leave in a few extra pounds of aluminum (or graphite) that you had in the first place.

Put another way; if there was a safe way to implement this technology and achieve any true benefits, don't you think the airlines (who would happily kill you to get a 1% fuel savings) would have jumped all over this by now? A pound of metal costs a few hundred bux by the time it makes it into an airplane, but a pound of electronics costs thousands of dollars. This technology seems to fall into the category of someone's cute little science project, something that the big boys really are not seriously interested in.

(To Clay: The type of wing flexure that is under discussion here is normal, plain old, beam-bending-twisting structural deflection that every wing experiences. The B-52 wingtip bends through some ten feet of vertical deflection, but that wing is still considered to be a "rigid" non-moving structural design.)
 
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Landing config:
xb70to.jpg


High speed config:
in-flight.jpg


My favorite plane, BTW. Why do they have the tips down on the museum bird? 'Cause it's beautiful that way!
 
To be fair, I could see something like that potentially used for military applications. They tend to be a little more lax about failure modes, and the balance of acceptable risk is tilted more towards performance. I absolutely agree for commercial applications though.

EDIT: this is in response to Powderburner@111 (this thread is growing too fast...)
 
That is a technology that has also been flight-tested on some airlliner-sized designs, and has been around for a while (a couple decades?)

Aeroelastic tailoring can be achieved through careful design of the structure (re-optimization of the load paths), by selecting new structural materials (composites behave differently than metals), and by adding flight control system features to "fly" the wing in new ways. There are some definite advantages as well as some fairly dangerous pitfalls.

Aeroelastics can be used for suppression of gust loads, for flutter suppression (to fly to higher speeds, or to fly at the same speed with lighter structure), for spanwise bending relief, and a few others. Generally, none of the published studies have included an honest, realistic assessment of the true benefits of this technology. Key point: if you use these active flight control systems to tailor the wing modes and control unwanted deflections, and then if you also take out part of the wing structure weight to "cash in" on the improved wing, and if you are flying "at speed" and experience ANY failure anywhere in the control system (hydraulic failure, electric power failure, FCS failure, air data system failure, etc) that is non-redundant and instantly online, your aircraft will immediately be at an inflight failure condition...because you took part of the structure out. All it takes is one little blip, hiccup, hangup, etc, and the wing will flutter to destruction.

The full impact of implementing this technology (and reducing wing structural weight) is that all "system level" components must now be designed with full redundancy and instant availability. The cost of this is additional power supplies, additional compute power, additional air data sources, etc, and they must all be operating at full capacity at all times to be ready to step in after a failure. Even then, while in failure mode, the aircraft would only have a single level of operating safety (non-redundant) which is an unacceptable safety feature, even if it only applies to the few moments it would take to slow down to a "safe" flight speed for the structure. When you add up all the costs of installing and operating the additional systems, it is far less expensive to just leave in a few extra pounds of aluminum (or graphite) that you had in the first place.

Put another way; if there was a safe way to implement this technology and achieve any true benefits, don't you think the airlines (who would happily kill you to get a 1% fuel savings) would have jumped all over this by now? A pound of metal costs a few hundred bux by the time it makes it into an airplane, but a pound of electronics costs thousands of dollars. This technology seems to fall into the category of someone's cute little science project, something that the big boys really are not seriously interested in.

(To Clay: The type of wing flexure that is under discussion here is normal, plain old, beam-bending-twisting structural deflection that every wing experiences. The B-52 wingtip bends through some ten feet of vertical deflection, but that wing is still considered to be a "rigid" non-moving structural design.)

if big boys werent interested in it, they wouldnt be testing it.....
flex, 16' in the b-52 is not changing lift, flex from LE. TO TE does...
 
Landing config:
xb70to.jpg


High speed config:
in-flight.jpg


My favorite plane, BTW. Why do they have the tips down on the museum bird? 'Cause it's beautiful that way!

yes, !!! they are down.. a little...
UGHHH.. makes the a-12 right by it look like a match box... (not that i am be littling...)
 
(this thread is growing too fast...)

And rather pointlessly.

I could help someone who is getting his information off the backs of cereal boxes (or wherever) if they are the least bit willing to learn, but if they refuse to listen and learn, we are just wasting our time (and amusing everyone else).

Like they say about the greased pig....
 
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