Other Saturn 1B colors
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GregGleason
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I haven't seen anything, but it doesn't mean that it is not out there.
If you are really serious about this, I would contact the folks at MFSC since that is where the flight articles were designed. Ask to talk with the librarians/historians and see if they can point you in the right direction. Unfortunately, my guess is that a lot of those folks that would have knowledge on this have long since retired, or have passed away.
Greg
If you are really serious about this, I would contact the folks at MFSC since that is where the flight articles were designed. Ask to talk with the librarians/historians and see if they can point you in the right direction. Unfortunately, my guess is that a lot of those folks that would have knowledge on this have long since retired, or have passed away.
Greg
plano-doug
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This Wikipedia article has a few pics showing some variation in the paint scheme.
But they all look much the same with the last few forgoing the black on the Redstone tanks.
One thought that came to mind was building some of the unbuilt Saturn variants.
I know that's not what you were asking about, but it certainly would be a different look
BTW2, the C-5 became the Saturn V. The B-1 looks sorta like the Saturn 1 (not 1B). FWIW, my L2 was inspired by the A-1.
Doug
luke strawwalker
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Not sure if what you're looking for even exists... Of course I'm not sure it doesn't either... hard to prove a negative...
All I can tell you is *I* have never seen an alternative paint pattern/design for the Saturn I.
You have to realize, the paint pattern isn't there to look "cool" or anything like that-- it serves a definite purpose. In the old days (late 50's early 60's) downlinked telemetry was VERY limited-- remember everything was pretty much analog signals in those days... digital stuff was VERY limited... and there were only SO many channels available for telemetry, so only the most important "stuff" got measured and sent back on the telemetry signals. Most of the early rockets used roll patterns and position numbers on the vehicles to help identify their orientation photographically, for analysis after the flight, if there was a problem with the trajectory or if the rocket exploded or something like that. The roll patterns and position numbers made the vehicle's orientation in three-dimensional space MUCH easier, based on photographic data.
This practice held over, almost as a "habit", throughout the Saturn program, though by the mid-sixties when the Saturn IB and Saturn V were flying or about to fly, telemetry downlinks weren't nearly as limited and there wasn't as much "reason" for roll patterns and such anymore. Still, it was seen as a valuable "backup" since telemetry CAN and DOES "drop out" from time to time, especially if the vehicle begins to tumble or do something it's not supposed to do. Photographic evidence could then be used to "supplement" or fill in the missing gaps in an investigation of what happened. But, the reliability was getting so much better that basically it was a holdover, a habit that hadn't been broken.
The first Saturn V, vehicle 500, which was strictly an integration and testing vehicle used to 'train' the VAB assembly folks in stacking the vehicle, checking it out, moving it to the pad, and getting it ready to fly, had a different paint job than the "production" Saturn V's. The most notable change was a black band around the "intertank" area of the S-IC first stage, and longer black stripes coming up from the fin fairings across the intertank to the black ring around the top of the intertank just below the LO2 tank. It was found in vehicle testing that this black ring caused two problems-- 1) it absorbed a LOT of heat in the Florida sun and made temperatures in the intertank area very hot, and 2) the heat absorbed increased boiloff of the LO2when the vehicle was fueled on the pad. All flight vehicles were subsequently painted so that the black stripes on the RP-1 kerosene tank stopped at the BOTTOM of the intertank "Y" ring, and the black ring around the intertank was deleted completely. IIRC, there was also a change to the black ring around the top of the S-IVB stage, just below the SLA panels that covered the LEM during launch. I think they narrowed it up IIRC on flight Saturn V's. That's another function of the paint patterns-- especially in orbit-- thermal control. White reflects heat, black absorbs it. That's why the early satellites like Explorer I and even the retro packs on the Mercury spacecraft were painted with alternating black and white stripes-- to balance heat absorption in the sun with heat reflection, to prevent temperatures from getting too hot in the compartment, while not reflecting ALL the heat so that temps didn't dive too drastically when on the night side of the planet.
Now, you'll notice that on the Skylab Saturn IB's, that the first stage tanks were painted all white, instead of the alternating white LO2/black RP-1 tanks of the earlier Saturn IB's up to Apollo 7 (which was the last Saturn IB flight until Skylab 2). Kerosene is a room-temperature and ambient pressure liquid, so absorbing solar heat from the black painted tanks is no problem... BUT, it was found that the absorbed heat is then re-emitted as infrared, which then warms up the adjoining LO2 tanks, causing increased boiloff of the LO2, which is cryogenic. The all white paint job has another benefit-- it's much simpler to apply... so the last four Saturn IB's (Skylab 2, 3, and 4, and ASTP) all had both white LO2 and RP-1 tanks.
Had Saturn V continued, it's fairly likely that it's paint job would have changed as well, eventually dropping the complicated roll patterns and such... as it was planned to do away with the fins on the second production run of Saturn V (which unfortunately was never produced).
By the time of the Shuttle, roll patterns were unnecessary. Paint is strictly a thermal-control issue... compartments like thrust structures, intertanks, interstages, and payload fairings are painted in whatever color provides the best thermal control properties (which is usually white to reflect excessive solar heating-- Florida's high ambient temperatures provide plenty of heat to these compartments without having to absorb extra solar heat as well). The first two shuttles flew with white-painted ET's, which was done as a thermal control measure. It was found that the thermal control effects of the white paint weren't necessary, and that the extra 600-800 pounds saved by not painting the tank at all could translate directly into additional payload, so from the third flight to the last flight, no ET's were ever painted again.
For this reason, which also is visible in the other vehicles like the Delta IV and Atlas V, both of which use raw unpainted foam insulation over the appropriate tanks/areas of the vehicle, and areas prone to absorbing solar heating like the thrust structure, intertank, interstage, etc. are usually painted white to reflect as much solar heat as possible. Painting the foam is superfluous and simply subtracts from payload capability and adds unnecessary costs, as do complicated roll patterns and other such paint schemes.
The appearance of the SLS artwork at it's announcement was a PR stunt, made to more closely link the SLS with the Saturn vehicles in people's minds through the outward appearance, being painted with roll patterns, black stripes and bands, and other such stuff... the flight vehicles will, with 99.9999% surety, will NOT be painted in this pattern or scheme... like shuttle, it's unnecessary (SLS's core is an adapted ET, covered with insulation foam, just like the ET and Delta IV core). The paint would reduce the payload capability due to the added weight, and add labor and materials costs to apply it to the vehicle, and as mentioned, in this day and age of digital telemetry downlinks, is TOTALLY unnecessary. In fact, on a liquid hydrogen powered vehicle, black roll patterns, bands, and such are actually deleterious as they absorb extra heat. That's why I can state with fair confidence that had we continued with the Saturn Vehicles rather than scrapping them to build shuttle, the later production runs of Saturns would have been painted virtually all white, strictly for thermal control, and to prevent corrosion.
Still, the broad stripes and bands of the Saturn IB and V still evoke "how a rocket aught to look" and even "theoretical" vehicles like the Saturn C-8 Nova (powered by 8 F-1's in the first stage) or the Saturn C-3 (powered by a pair of F-1's) just don't look "Saturn-y" without the black and white bands and roll pattern stripes...
Interestingly enough, I was reading recently about the Soyuz-- the Russians have always painted their rockets a bland gray color, which tends to appear greenish in some photographs, which has led to them being misrepresented in many publications as being painted green when they're actually gray. No roll patterns, only minimal bands around the bottoms or tops of stages... no tall stripes or anything like that... The reason?? The Soviets (and now Russians) never really used flight photography for flight analysis to supplement telemetry. Considering the poorer weather in Russia and Kazakhstan, (like the last Soyuz which lifted off in a heavy snowstorm) that shouldn't be surprising I guess... Also explains the dearth of Russian liftoff footage...
Later and hope this helps! OL JR
PS. If you DO find an "alternate Saturn IB paint pattern, be sure to post pics and a description of it and where you found it!
All I can tell you is *I* have never seen an alternative paint pattern/design for the Saturn I.
You have to realize, the paint pattern isn't there to look "cool" or anything like that-- it serves a definite purpose. In the old days (late 50's early 60's) downlinked telemetry was VERY limited-- remember everything was pretty much analog signals in those days... digital stuff was VERY limited... and there were only SO many channels available for telemetry, so only the most important "stuff" got measured and sent back on the telemetry signals. Most of the early rockets used roll patterns and position numbers on the vehicles to help identify their orientation photographically, for analysis after the flight, if there was a problem with the trajectory or if the rocket exploded or something like that. The roll patterns and position numbers made the vehicle's orientation in three-dimensional space MUCH easier, based on photographic data.
This practice held over, almost as a "habit", throughout the Saturn program, though by the mid-sixties when the Saturn IB and Saturn V were flying or about to fly, telemetry downlinks weren't nearly as limited and there wasn't as much "reason" for roll patterns and such anymore. Still, it was seen as a valuable "backup" since telemetry CAN and DOES "drop out" from time to time, especially if the vehicle begins to tumble or do something it's not supposed to do. Photographic evidence could then be used to "supplement" or fill in the missing gaps in an investigation of what happened. But, the reliability was getting so much better that basically it was a holdover, a habit that hadn't been broken.
The first Saturn V, vehicle 500, which was strictly an integration and testing vehicle used to 'train' the VAB assembly folks in stacking the vehicle, checking it out, moving it to the pad, and getting it ready to fly, had a different paint job than the "production" Saturn V's. The most notable change was a black band around the "intertank" area of the S-IC first stage, and longer black stripes coming up from the fin fairings across the intertank to the black ring around the top of the intertank just below the LO2 tank. It was found in vehicle testing that this black ring caused two problems-- 1) it absorbed a LOT of heat in the Florida sun and made temperatures in the intertank area very hot, and 2) the heat absorbed increased boiloff of the LO2when the vehicle was fueled on the pad. All flight vehicles were subsequently painted so that the black stripes on the RP-1 kerosene tank stopped at the BOTTOM of the intertank "Y" ring, and the black ring around the intertank was deleted completely. IIRC, there was also a change to the black ring around the top of the S-IVB stage, just below the SLA panels that covered the LEM during launch. I think they narrowed it up IIRC on flight Saturn V's. That's another function of the paint patterns-- especially in orbit-- thermal control. White reflects heat, black absorbs it. That's why the early satellites like Explorer I and even the retro packs on the Mercury spacecraft were painted with alternating black and white stripes-- to balance heat absorption in the sun with heat reflection, to prevent temperatures from getting too hot in the compartment, while not reflecting ALL the heat so that temps didn't dive too drastically when on the night side of the planet.
Now, you'll notice that on the Skylab Saturn IB's, that the first stage tanks were painted all white, instead of the alternating white LO2/black RP-1 tanks of the earlier Saturn IB's up to Apollo 7 (which was the last Saturn IB flight until Skylab 2). Kerosene is a room-temperature and ambient pressure liquid, so absorbing solar heat from the black painted tanks is no problem... BUT, it was found that the absorbed heat is then re-emitted as infrared, which then warms up the adjoining LO2 tanks, causing increased boiloff of the LO2, which is cryogenic. The all white paint job has another benefit-- it's much simpler to apply... so the last four Saturn IB's (Skylab 2, 3, and 4, and ASTP) all had both white LO2 and RP-1 tanks.
Had Saturn V continued, it's fairly likely that it's paint job would have changed as well, eventually dropping the complicated roll patterns and such... as it was planned to do away with the fins on the second production run of Saturn V (which unfortunately was never produced).
By the time of the Shuttle, roll patterns were unnecessary. Paint is strictly a thermal-control issue... compartments like thrust structures, intertanks, interstages, and payload fairings are painted in whatever color provides the best thermal control properties (which is usually white to reflect excessive solar heating-- Florida's high ambient temperatures provide plenty of heat to these compartments without having to absorb extra solar heat as well). The first two shuttles flew with white-painted ET's, which was done as a thermal control measure. It was found that the thermal control effects of the white paint weren't necessary, and that the extra 600-800 pounds saved by not painting the tank at all could translate directly into additional payload, so from the third flight to the last flight, no ET's were ever painted again.
For this reason, which also is visible in the other vehicles like the Delta IV and Atlas V, both of which use raw unpainted foam insulation over the appropriate tanks/areas of the vehicle, and areas prone to absorbing solar heating like the thrust structure, intertank, interstage, etc. are usually painted white to reflect as much solar heat as possible. Painting the foam is superfluous and simply subtracts from payload capability and adds unnecessary costs, as do complicated roll patterns and other such paint schemes.
The appearance of the SLS artwork at it's announcement was a PR stunt, made to more closely link the SLS with the Saturn vehicles in people's minds through the outward appearance, being painted with roll patterns, black stripes and bands, and other such stuff... the flight vehicles will, with 99.9999% surety, will NOT be painted in this pattern or scheme... like shuttle, it's unnecessary (SLS's core is an adapted ET, covered with insulation foam, just like the ET and Delta IV core). The paint would reduce the payload capability due to the added weight, and add labor and materials costs to apply it to the vehicle, and as mentioned, in this day and age of digital telemetry downlinks, is TOTALLY unnecessary. In fact, on a liquid hydrogen powered vehicle, black roll patterns, bands, and such are actually deleterious as they absorb extra heat. That's why I can state with fair confidence that had we continued with the Saturn Vehicles rather than scrapping them to build shuttle, the later production runs of Saturns would have been painted virtually all white, strictly for thermal control, and to prevent corrosion.
Still, the broad stripes and bands of the Saturn IB and V still evoke "how a rocket aught to look" and even "theoretical" vehicles like the Saturn C-8 Nova (powered by 8 F-1's in the first stage) or the Saturn C-3 (powered by a pair of F-1's) just don't look "Saturn-y" without the black and white bands and roll pattern stripes...
Interestingly enough, I was reading recently about the Soyuz-- the Russians have always painted their rockets a bland gray color, which tends to appear greenish in some photographs, which has led to them being misrepresented in many publications as being painted green when they're actually gray. No roll patterns, only minimal bands around the bottoms or tops of stages... no tall stripes or anything like that... The reason?? The Soviets (and now Russians) never really used flight photography for flight analysis to supplement telemetry. Considering the poorer weather in Russia and Kazakhstan, (like the last Soyuz which lifted off in a heavy snowstorm) that shouldn't be surprising I guess... Also explains the dearth of Russian liftoff footage...
Later and hope this helps! OL JR
PS. If you DO find an "alternate Saturn IB paint pattern, be sure to post pics and a description of it and where you found it!
RoyAtl
Well-Known Member
The paint would reduce the payload capability due to the added weight, and add labor and materials costs to apply it to the vehicle, and as mentioned, in this day and age of digital telemetry downlinks, is TOTALLY unnecessary. In fact, on a liquid hydrogen powered vehicle, black roll patterns, bands, and such are actually deleterious as they absorb extra heat. That's why I can state with fair confidence that had we continued with the Saturn Vehicles rather than scrapping them to build shuttle, the later production runs of Saturns would have been painted virtually all white, strictly for thermal control, and to prevent corrosion.
Still, the broad stripes and bands of the Saturn IB and V still evoke "how a rocket aught to look" and even "theoretical" vehicles like the Saturn C-8 Nova (powered by 8 F-1's in the first stage) or the Saturn C-3 (powered by a pair of F-1's) just don't look "Saturn-y" without the black and white bands and roll pattern stripes...
Interestingly enough, I was reading recently about the Soyuz-- the Russians have always painted their rockets a bland gray color, which tends to appear greenish in some photographs, which has led to them being misrepresented in many publications as being painted green when they're actually gray. No roll patterns, only minimal bands around the bottoms or tops of stages... no tall stripes or anything like that... The reason?? The Soviets (and now Russians) never really used flight photography for flight analysis to supplement telemetry. Considering the poorer weather in Russia and Kazakhstan, (like the last Soyuz which lifted off in a heavy snowstorm) that shouldn't be surprising I guess... Also explains the dearth of Russian liftoff footage...
Later and hope this helps! OL JR
PS. If you DO find an "alternate Saturn IB paint pattern, be sure to post pics and a description of it and where you found it!
The Saturn 1B at the Visitors Center at KSC is painted mostly white, and in fact was the way it was going to fly, if it had flown. The SIV-B still has the two stripes at either end of the stage, but the S1B stage is almost totally white, as is the interstage area.
MarkII
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Proposed but rejected paint schemes would never have been seen by members of the public, or even by workers at the plant because, of course, they were never implemented. But that doesn't mean that any such proposals, if they were made, weren't written down and aren't filed away in an archive. The great thing about written records is that they persist even after people retire. The historian or archivist at Marshall would probably be able to unearth such documents if they were ever created and still exist.
luke strawwalker
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NEVER have been seen by members of the public?? REALLY??
How many NASA 'what if' plans and proposals and studies have been published and/or available on the web?? NTRS alone hold THOUSANDS, probably tens of thousands. Space websites like astronautix among others have TONS more... I'm sure corporate company files have tens of thousands of proposals that never even made it over to NASA as studies in their company files, which being company property is proprietary, and probably huge numbers of them have been destroyed and thus will never be known.
While it's POSSIBLE that there were alternative paint schemes for Saturn IB that remain buried in tons of NASA files somewhere, I somehow think they would probably have turned up by now, if they ever will... and if they haven't turned up by now, then in all likelihood they probably won't ever, aside from a dedicated search for something that may not exist anyway, or perhaps a happy accident when someone cleaning out stored boxes of files happens to see it and go "hey, look at this... " and decides to save it and transfer it to computer archives...
Who's to say such proposals, if they ever existed, haven't already been destroyed?? I tend to think if they ever existed, they're long gone by now or otherwise they'd have been found and web published by now...
IMHO... Later! OL JR
luke strawwalker
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All the info you guys have posted has been interesting. What made me ask the question was this picture with the stripe on the transition.
Very interesting Saluki... where did you get this pic, and can you post a cleaned up version of it perhaps?? Do you have a link to it or could you send me a full-res version of it... I'd be more than happy to clean it up some and make it more readable.
My off-the-cuff guess here is that this is an early "concept drawing" of the Saturn IB, before it actually flew. I think I remember seeing some Saturn V concept drawings from early on that had a 'checkerboard' on the SLA panels... well before the actual vehicle was built, but after the basic shape was pretty well nailed down. As mentioned earlier, as things developed and unfolded it was probably discovered that the extra 'checkerboard' would just increase the heat loads from absorbed solar heat in the SLA compartment surrounding the LM (or on Saturn IB, whatever payload (if any) carried in the SLA), that it wasn't necessary for flight photography analysis being that high on the stack, and it simply added more work, expense, and weight with no real purpose so it was simply never put on the eventual vehicles.
If you're really interested, you might try getting ahold of John Pursley at his website, accur8.com and ask him directly-- John is probably one of THE most knowledgeable people about the Saturn V (and probably by extension the Saturn IB) around. He even has some information on his website about the font, size, and exact color of the warning/information decal stencils on the side of the Saturn V near various compartment entrances, umbilicals, antennae, and such... John was actually hired by the companies that did the restorations of the Saturn V's on display at JSC and USSRC in Huntsville, AL, because of his intricate knowledge of all things Saturn. He's also former editor of "American Spacemodeling", the NAR magazine prior to it turning into "Sport Rocketry" as we know it today, and a longtime modeler...
Good luck! OL JR
MarkII
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I am not aware of too many examples of such ephemera being published; there had to be some perceived interest in it first. How many people do you think would have been curious about this particular subject over the past four decades? A rejected paint scheme is, by definition, one that was never implemented. The workers that were tasked with painting the Saturn 1B would never have seen them (why would they?) and I cannot imagine NASA ever including them in a press kit. What possible reason would there have been for releasing them? No doubt as much of the mountains of documentation that was generated during the Saturn's development was subsequently archived for accountability purposes (you never know when you'll need to produce something for a Congressional Committee hearing), but that doesn't mean that every last doodle drawn by a bored NASA official on the back of a budget meeting agenda has been subsequently released to the public. And even a published article or paper can remain very obscure and all but forgotten after 45 years.NEVER have been seen by members of the public?? REALLY??
How many NASA 'what if' plans and proposals and studies have been published and/or available on the web?? NTRS alone hold THOUSANDS, probably tens of thousands. Space websites like astronautix among others have TONS more... I'm sure corporate company files have tens of thousands of proposals that never even made it over to NASA as studies in their company files, which being company property is proprietary, and probably huge numbers of them have been destroyed and thus will never be known.
While it's POSSIBLE that there were alternative paint schemes for Saturn IB that remain buried in tons of NASA files somewhere, I somehow think they would probably have turned up by now, if they ever will... and if they haven't turned up by now, then in all likelihood they probably won't ever, aside from a dedicated search for something that may not exist anyway, or perhaps a happy accident when someone cleaning out stored boxes of files happens to see it and go "hey, look at this... " and decides to save it and transfer it to computer archives...
Who's to say such proposals, if they ever existed, haven't already been destroyed?? I tend to think if they ever existed, they're long gone by now or otherwise they'd have been found and web published by now...
IMHO... Later! OL JR
Saluki
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Here is a couple sites where the drawings use this stripe on the transition.
https://www.spacelaunchreport.com/satstg2.html
This second site scroll down to the drawings on the right. the same stripe is used. So far this is all I have found.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturn_1B
https://www.spacelaunchreport.com/satstg2.html
This second site scroll down to the drawings on the right. the same stripe is used. So far this is all I have found.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturn_1B
