Nice, France

[DavidMcCann]

Europe and especially Great Britain and France put all this in motion over 300 years ago

Damn spice road.

 

[H_Rocket]

Like Anders Breivik, Jared Loughner, Adam Lanza, James Holmes, Syed Farook, Timothy McVeigh, Dylan Roof, Robert Dear, Elliot Rodger, Aaron Alexis, Jiverly Wong, Omar Mateen, Wade Michael Page, Nidal Hasan, Seung Hui Cho, Dylan Klebold, Eric Harris, and on, and on , and on........But yeah, let's round up all the Muslims because they are the enemy right?

If that was the message I conveyed, I need to go back and look at my rhetoric - a lot. In no way did I mean to single out the Muslim faith as the problem. I feel the problem is bad people who are willing to hurt innocents in the process of making a point and the state entities that enable their behavior to political ends. That is who we need to identify and make them understand that their behavior will not be tolerated and will be dealt with in the harshest of terms. We should be able to identify these criminals and deal with them swiftly and terribly.

 

[tmacklin]

If that was the message I conveyed, I need to go back and look at my rhetoric - a lot. In no way did I mean to single out the Muslim faith as the problem. I feel the problem is bad people who are willing to hurt innocents in the process of making a point and the state entities that enable their behavior to political ends. That is who we need to identify and make them understand that their behavior will not be tolerated and will be dealt with in the harshest of terms. We should be able to identify these criminals and deal with them swiftly and terribly.

Well said, and nothing more to be said.

 

[H_Rocket]

I think I'm going to go for a nice quiet bike ride...

 

[ThirstyBarbarian]

I think we are in a religious war. But the war isn't Muslims vs. Christians (or secular Western culture). The real struggle is between those in both cultures who WANT the war vs. those in both cultures who do NOT. And if we are really in a war BETWEEN religions, then there is something wrong with our religions, or their leaders, or their followers. And I'm pretty sure it's their leaders.

I recently walked 500 miles of the Camino de Santiago, a Christian pilgrimage route through Spain that has been walked by millions of pilgrims over more than 1,000 years. It's a unique experience and one with a lot of lessons.

One of the most wonderful parts of the journey is experiencing the incredible kindness of strangers and finding that impulse in yourself. You meet fellow pilgrims from all over the world and from every culture, many not Christian or especially religious at all, and some from other religions. Most do not share a common language. But everyone is kind and generous with each other. Everyone helps everyone else, and you have many opportunities to give and receive kindness. It's the kind of experience that can restore your faith in humanity. I think there is an instinct in people to reach out to each other, regardless of cultural barriers and extend a hand of peace and friendship. At least that is the case when one individual meets another.

Another aspect of the Camino is that it passes through an area that has been torn by war and conflict for most of its history. The Camino ends at the Cathedral in Santiago de Compostela, believed to be the final resting place of Saint James, one of the Apostles of Jesus who was sent into the world to spread the faith and was martyred by the Romans. It's said his tomb was discovered there in the 9th century (through something like a miracle), and the Camino was established so that pilgrims could come from all across Europe to venerate his relics.

There are are thousands of depictions of Saint James on the Camino, and there are basically two ways of portraying him. One is the humble apostle, sometimes in pilgrim garb, spreading the word of God. And the other is Santiago Matamoros --- Saint James on a white horse with a sword in hand, trampling the bodies of slain Moors! The missionary and the Moor Killer! It's a very strange juxtaposition.

At the time the Camino was established, one of the most powerful military orders of the time, the Order of Saint James was also established. The purpose of the order was to protect the Camino route and the pilgrims, and also to drive the Moors out of Spain. It was during a decisive battle against the Moors that Saint James was said to have actually appeared on the battlefield on a white horse and led the Christian army to victory over the Muslim army! He had been dead a thousand years, but there he was to save the day! Some kind of miracle!

So what is the truth about the Camino? Do the bones of Saint James really rest there? Or was the whole thing a scheme cooked up by by religious and political leaders of the time to bring attention and resources to the war? The Camino brought wealth from all over Europe to build churches, monasteries, hospitals, roads, bridges and entire towns all along the route, so maybe it was just an elaborate tourist attraction and money making scheme.

But of course there were literally millions and millions of pilgrims over the centuries who were true believers who sacrificed everything for their pilgrimage. You go into the sacred places along the Way, and you can feel it. I'm not a religious person, but I had a lot of profound moments on the Camino. On the one hand you could see the good in what so many individual souls were trying to do with their religion --- reaching out to God and to their fellow man. But also you could see how that impulse was distorted and directed for the purpose of power.

I do think that most people are basically good and will extend a hand of peace to another individual. But people are also motivated to protect their own, they can also be motivated by revenge, and they can be manipulated into doing terrible things for purposes they don't really understand. What is in the minds of these terrorists? Is it just evil and hatred? Or do they think they are doing the right thing?

 

[boatgeek]

So far, we've been too scared of breaking a few eggs. The radicals know this and count on it. I think we are getting closer and closer to ordering up a bunch of omelets.

And many of those "eggs" are living, breathing human beings who have done you no wrong and are probably just as pissed off at their oppressors as you are.

If religion were allowed here, I could demonstrate effectively that Islam is an illogical, untenable, flawed belief system. But since I'm not allowed, mum's the word.

Give me a religious book, and I'll show you how it's an illogical, untenable, and flawed belief system. The Bible is full of contradictions, let alone whether people actually follow it. Your book is not better than their book just because you believe in it. Saying that everyone must follow your religion is the ideology of the Taliban and ISIS.

 

[DavidMcCann]

The dangerous part is that we have reached a level where unaffiliated lone wolf individuals are taking actions without any support direction or control from the main group of the day. Which brings up another point, today it's ISIS, tomorrow someone else. Eliminating or hurting "them" is a short term solution. Scaring someone who does not fear death is basically impossible. Threats and seeing someone caught and put in prison or killed will only strengthen their resolve. How does a nation respond to that? Making laws and stripping people down at airports doesn't seem to work... eliminating access to firearms doesn't seem to work. It's quite the quandary.... But if we can not prevent these attacks, we MUST prepare for them. Yes, I think that means an armed citizenry, but more than that, a citizenry trained to recognize an attack and how to react, large events planning for attacks, and for all people to be better trained in first aid. The last one is something I feel regardless of any attacks...and I have no idea why it isn't something taught in schools more often.

 

[CzTeacherMan]

The dangerous part is that we have reached a level where unaffiliated lone wolf individuals are taking actions without any support direction or control from the main group of the day. Which brings up another point, today it's ISIS, tomorrow someone else. Eliminating or hurting "them" is a short term solution. Scaring someone who does not fear death is basically impossible. Threats and seeing someone caught and put in prison or killed will only strengthen their resolve. How does a nation respond to that? Making laws and stripping people down at airports doesn't seem to work... eliminating access to firearms doesn't seem to work. It's quite the quandary.... But if we can not prevent these attacks, we MUST prepare for them. Yes, I think that means an armed citizenry, but more than that, a citizenry trained to recognize an attack and how to react, large events planning for attacks, and for all people to be better trained in first aid. The last one is something I feel regardless of any attacks...and I have no idea why it isn't something taught in schools more often.

Precisely. Gun control won't solve this problem. Nor will mental health programs...
I think the best solutions to the lone wolf problem is to make communities more... Community-ish. People with good jobs and a warm, caring home life don't kill people. A better community is better able to spot a lonely fellow and offer him support. It starts with us, not a political solution. I know my neighbors. They know me, etc. I think that's the best we can do against lone wolves, unless we're willing to give up freedoms...

 

[DavidMcCann]

And many of those "eggs" are living, breathing human beings who have done you no wrong and are probably just as pissed off at their oppressors as you are.

We survived as a nation for years by bombing the crap out of innocents to get to those we needed to get. Not just thousands, but millions of them. Right or wrong, it's how we survived.

We are once again presented with the choice of maybe taking out a few innocents to get to those we need to, or accepting these attacks and doing nothing to prevent them.

I'm all for minimizing casualties. But if innocent people must die, I'd rather not be one of them. Maybe I go to hell for that, but I'm OK with that. The fact is, our lifestyle is supported by killing other people so they can not take it away from us. If you don't believe that there are people out there that will kill you to take what you have, you live in fantasy land. If we were to shut it all down, disarm, grow flowers and try to live in peace.... we would be overrun by war and famine. It's a sad fact of human nature, but one I choose not to ignore.

 

[DavidMcCann]

Precisely. Gun control won't solve this problem. Nor will mental health programs...
I think the best solutions to the lone wolf problem is to make communities more... Community-ish. People with good jobs and a warm, caring home life don't kill people. A better community is better able to spot a lonely fellow and offer him support. It starts with us, not a political solution. I know my neighbors. They know me, etc. I think that's the best we can do against lone wolves, unless we're willing to give up freedoms...

I think you hit the nail on the head for what we must do here.... and what needs to happen over there. I'm guessing these army's don't spring up from people with good jobs, but unemployed masses. The middle east has a good portion of wealth. It is not spent on the people, who are treated as slaves/ regarded as a problem. Aside from the tribal aspect of life and it's incompatibility with the idea of a modern nation, I think the distribution of wealth from the sale of natural resources/drug trades is a major problem in the region. Somehow, the western world is getting the blame and hate..... when it's the people running governments over there that have the people trapped in poverty.

 

[H_Rocket]

...when it's the people running governments over there that have the people trapped in poverty.

I think the problem there is that our government puts those losers in charge because at some moment in time they looked to be the best option to support our political goals. We do this instead of selecting good people who may not see the world the way we do - people who understand their own kind and can place them on a track to peaceful coexistence with the rest of humanity and have the sense of dignity that I like to believe every human being deserves. We just have to accept that how they want to live may not be the "democracy" we so revere.

 

[Onebadhawk]

The people perpetrating these terrorist acts will not play by your rules...
Innocents are going to be killed..
Innocents on our soil,, or innocents on foreign soil...
I am grateful we are powerful enough that the choice is ours...
We keep on the path of political correctness and endlessly REact and the toll will be our innocents...
When we've had enough and act the toll will be foreign innocents...
These may be 2 poor options, but we're not the ones forcing this to be...

Teddy

 

[Bat-mite]

I think the problem there is that our government puts those losers in charge because at some moment in time they looked to be the best option to support our political goals. We do this instead of selecting good people who may not see the world the way we do - people who understand their own kind and can place them on a track to peaceful coexistence with the rest of humanity and have the sense of dignity that I like to believe every human being deserves. We just have to accept that how they want to live may not be the "democracy" we so revere.

The average Joe that we would all like to vote into office can't raise the capital to compete with Trumps and Clintons. You have to already be an aggressive, power-hungry go-getter to even be in the position to run for office.

Ever see The Candidate, with Robert Redford?

 

[DavidMcCann]

I think the problem there is that our government puts those losers in charge because at some moment in time they looked to be the best option to support our political goals. We do this instead of selecting good people who may not see the world the way we do - people who understand their own kind and can place them on a track to peaceful coexistence with the rest of humanity and have the sense of dignity that I like to believe every human being deserves. We just have to accept that how they want to live may not be the "democracy" we so revere.

There in breaks the issue of a tribal region. Trying to get that into any kind of nation is very very difficult. Even at Iraq's height of power, they couldn't control the Kurds. Most countries over there have regions were law isn't exactly law. (to be fair, that occurs in nearly all countries to an extent) But putting a system of government in place to be fair to "their own kind" will be difficult.

The average Joe that we would all like to vote into office can't raise the capital to compete with Trumps and Clintons. You have to already be an aggressive, power-hungry go-getter to even be in the position to run for office.

He meant to put in power of other countries. (losers running this country not in dispute) As for having an average joe in charge of our country? Oh hell no. I don't want that at all. When people talk about needing an average person I cringe. I don't want an average person cooking my food...let alone running my country. I want an Epic, intelligent, smart successful person in charge. Not someone who's life choices got them to be Manager of the local McDonalds. Trouble is anyone I'd want to be president, won't go anywhere near the job.


Also- in the age of the internet- I don't buy for a second that you need money to run. I'm still waiting for it to happen, but you could run a campaign for very very little money these days in a non-traditional manner.

 

[ThirstyBarbarian]

One of the reasons France and other European countries are having a much bigger problem with this kind of home-grown terrorism than we are in the US is that anyone who comes to the US has a decent chance of integrating into the society, if that's what they want to do. It's not so true of France and to some extent other European countries. The European cultures are more insular and homogenous, and they are not as accepting of difference. On top of that, in France there are laws that enforce its secular norms. For example, the wearing of Muslim head scarves is banned in certain settings. So on the one hand, there is the overt message that if you come to live here you MUST assimilate, while on the other hand there is the unspoken message that you will NEVER be allowed to assimilate. It's very alienating. Unfortunately, this kind of terrorist attack will only make it worse, making France even LESS accepting of the Muslim immigrants already there, spawning more discontent, and probably more radicalization and terrorism. A cycle of violence.

America doesn't have that same problem, at least not to the same degree. But I think it is worth thinking about, given some of the rhetoric we've had here in this country lately.

 

[DavidMcCann]

America doesn't have that same problem, at least not to the same degree. But I think it is worth thinking about, given some of the rhetoric we've had here in this country lately.

I tend to agree, one has to wonder how many Russian/extremist spies/ plants have been lost once over here.

 

[Winston]

Statistically minor, yes, but not insignificant. The occasional plane crash or mass murder always generates interest while the daily average of 44 murders in the U.S. is largely ignored. As for "the media", they are despicable and often seem to be disappointed when the death tolls do not meet their expectations. If a full fledged police state ever does emerge in the United States, the media will be singing the praises of the cops instead of cheering the hoodlums chanting, "No Justice, No Peace." And no, I don't want to see the emergence of a police state in my country.

What more people need to do, but find it difficult to do thanks to an apparent inability to think critically, a learned skill usually obtained from taking science courses, is to put all of these events into proper perspective, something made even more difficult for them by a profit seeking and, therefore, sensationalist media and self-serving pols wanting to instill fear. This is actually the most peaceful time worldwide in recorded human history and crime of all kinds in the US has greatly decreased from previous levels:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States

People need to investigate the figures from the 1960s. Now THAT was a major time of social uprising. I once saw a graph which I can't find now of all of the acts labelled as terrorism in those years and it was amazing, far worse than now, but even that wasn't even remotely close to the end of the world as we know it.

 

[stealth6]

If that was the message I conveyed, I need to go back and look at my rhetoric - a lot. In no way did I mean to single out the Muslim faith as the problem. I feel the problem is bad people who are willing to hurt innocents in the process of making a point and the state entities that enable their behavior to political ends. That is who we need to identify and make them understand that their behavior will not be tolerated and will be dealt with in the harshest of terms. We should be able to identify these criminals and deal with them swiftly and terribly.

Well said, and nothing more to be said.

Actually, something more should be said......and that is my apology to H_rocket - I also didn't mean to convey a message that HE was specifically singling out the Muslim faith as the problem. I was more referring to the tendency for so many to do so. So.......H, apologies, I know that was not your intention.

I think I'm going to go for a nice quiet bike ride...

Splendid idea! I think I'll go for one as well (although I have a feeling I'll be grinding up a hill or two "pedaling in anger" once or twice at least).
Peace, s6

 

[RocketFeller]

I was talking with a guy at my son's karate class a while back and the subject of mass shootings came up.

According to him we Americans are living in one of the safest periods in recent history, yet people are more afraid than ever.

It was easy enough to check out the first part and, sure enough, it's true. In 2014 4.5 people were murdered per 100,000. It hasn't been this low since prior to the 1960s. Throughout the 1970s, 80's, and 90's the murder rate averaged about double that number. https://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm

While the "safe" part was easy enough to prove, the "afraid" part is not so easy. I personally don't feel any less safe, but it does seem that a lot of people feel that way.

 

[Winston]

I was talking with a guy at my son's karate class a while back and the subject of mass shootings came up.

According to him we Americans are living in one of the safest periods in recent history, yet people are more afraid than ever.

It was easy enough to check out the first part and, sure enough, it's true. In 2014 4.5 people were murdered per 100,000. It hasn't been this low since prior to the 1960s. Throughout the 1970s, 80's, and 90's the murder rate averaged about double that number. https://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm

While the "safe" part was easy enough to prove, the "afraid" part is not so easy. I personally don't feel any less safe, but it does seem that a lot of people feel that way.

Here's the CORE problem that leads to so many feeling that way, at least as Carl Sagan saw it and I wholeheartedly agree - an unwillingness or inability to think critically and, in that process, to actually investigate to find the truth as you did instead of just accepting what they are told. A quote from an excellent 1996 Carl Sagan radio interview found here:

https://www.sciencefriday.com/segments/carl-sagan-science-is-a-way-of-thinking/

"I think people in power have a vested interest to oppose critical thinking. You see, if we don't improve our understanding of critical thinking and develop it as kind of second nature, we are just suckers ready to be taken by the next charlatan who ambles along... there are lots of ways to gain power and money by deceiving people who are not skilled in critical thinking." - Carl Sagan, radio interview, May 1996

Another one saying the same thing:

“If we are not prepared to think for ourselves, and to make the effort to learn how to do this well, we will always be in danger of becoming slaves to the ideas and values of others due to our own ignorance.” - William Hughes, author of Critical Thinking: An Introduction to the Basic Skills

And THAT is exactly why STEM is so incredibly important - not necessarily just to create future scientists, but to train kids in the critical thought process that is naturally developed by the teaching of science and engineering, courses that far too many older youths and adults avoid, I think, because that learned skill that they may not possess makes those courses more difficult for them than courses where rote memorization is all they need to succeed.

 

[tmacklin]

The common motivation in most of these mass murderers is not religion, it is the hatred and intolerance of others who do not share their views and the desire to silence them. People can be silenced in a variety of ways...some by violence, others by stealth.

 

[H_Rocket]

Splendid idea! I think I'll go for one as well (although I have a feeling I'll be grinding up a hill or two "pedaling in anger" once or twice at least).Peace, s6

Just picked up my shiny new Trek Domane S5.

Let the world go to heck in a hand-basket. I can go to my happy place

 

[grouch]

Just picked up my shiny new Trek Domane S5.

Let the world go to heck in a hand-basket. I can go to my happy place

Good show on the sweet new ride. I can hardly wait till tomorrow morning for my ride. I didn't ride last week due to a number of reasons and I think it's starting to affect my temperament. I need my happy place real bad after this week.

 

[ThirstyBarbarian]

I need my happy place real bad after this week.

If anyone needs his Happy Place, it would be Grouch!

Don't we all...

Let's hope we can all find it. I'm watching "The Martian" tonight, and I LOVE that movie!

 

[gjrockets]

Is it just me or are we still posting in a ROCKETRY forum?
Important though this topic may be, there are better places to post comments about current events. Let's stick to rocket-related items in THIS forum, ok?

 

[DavidMcCann]

Is it just me or are we still posting in a ROCKETRY forum?
Important though this topic may be, there are better places to post comments about current events. Let's stick to rocket-related items in THIS forum, ok?

This is an Off Topic sub.... so.... no

 

[H_Rocket]

Interesting, there are dozens of active discussions about rocketry going on on TRF. Yet some seem driven to find the few that are not and see if they can control those. Why can't folks who share one common interest (in this case sport rocketry) also take some bandwidth to discuss something else that they find important? If a discussion does not interest me, I simply do not follow it.

 

[rstaff3]

Hey! Take it here https://www.rocketryforum.com/showt...ring-hole-be-eliminated&p=1603726#post1603726

 

[DavidMcCann]

Interesting, there are dozens of active discussions about rocketry going on on TRF. Yet some seem driven to find the few that are not and see if they can control those. Why can't folks who share one common interest (in this case sport rocketry) also take some bandwidth to discuss something else that they find important? If a discussion does not interest me, I simply do not follow it.

I have no idea what people's issues are. This is a simple discussion of a common interest to several of us. *shrug* Some people are just control freaks.

 

[cwbullet]

One of the reasons France and other European countries are having a much bigger problem with this kind of home-grown terrorism than we are in the US is that anyone who comes to the US has a decent chance of integrating into the society, if that's what they want to do. It's not so true of France and to some extent other European countries. The European cultures are more insular and homogenous, and they are not as accepting of difference. On top of that, in France there are laws that enforce its secular norms. For example, the wearing of Muslim head scarves is banned in certain settings. So on the one hand, there is the overt message that if you come to live here you MUST assimilate, while on the other hand there is the unspoken message that you will NEVER be allowed to assimilate. It's very alienating. Unfortunately, this kind of terrorist attack will only make it worse, making France even LESS accepting of the Muslim immigrants already there, spawning more discontent, and probably more radicalization and terrorism. A cycle of violence.

America doesn't have that same problem, at least not to the same degree. But I think it is worth thinking about, given some of the rhetoric we've had here in this country lately.

I agree, but with our current culture of love and acceptance, people are integrating much less.