My L1 Rocket Project: Guardian Upscale

[aviator]

I should have started this a while ago, but I was too lazy, and I just now got around to it. I most likely won't have this rocket flying on L1 motors until next NARAM or there abouts, so it isn't a big deal anyways.

I've been messing around with the idea of getting my L1 for a while, but my brother gave me the kick I needed to do it. I set a couple of goals for myself to make the experience a little more fun and rewarding. They were:

1.) Don't do a simple 3 or 4FNC rocket.

2.) Reuse parts from a salvaged LOC Norad. I didn't want to waste them; I loaded an F40 incorrectly a while back and blew the Norad apart with a forward closure failure. I destroyed the motor tube and pulled apart an glue joint or two in the process. The parachute was slightly singed, but reusable.

3.) Inline with #2, keep costs as low as possible.

The inspiration for this build came when I came home from NARAM-49 (fun times ). While I was gone, my brother had volunteered to do a couple of launches for a Space-Themed Vacation Bible School at a local church. One of the kits he'd purchased for a last minute build was an Estes Guardian. I liked the kit, and when I was looking through some pictures of massive HPR Estes Mosquito upgrades, my brother basically said that I should upscale the Guardian. So I did. This was pretty much the result of that inspiration and him nagging me to get it done. Here's a synopsis of the build.


I started off with these parts:

Nose section from a LOC Norad (PNC2.14, AR3.00-2.14, Length of 2.14" Airframe)
3"x36" Mailing Tube (Cheaper than Airframe tube)
A sheet of 1/8" Plywood
38mm MMT Tube
3 LOC3.00-1.52 Centering rings
LOC 28" Nylon 'chute
10' of 400lb. Kevlar Cord
5' of 1/2 Flat Elastic
1-1/2" U-bolt
Various nuts, bolts, and washers for motor retention

The build was pretty straight forward except for the three individual fin sets and several new construction techniques. I had never used epoxy in large quantities before, and the idea of constructing the fin can outside the rocket was new to me too. Other than that, it was a massive version of all the other rockets I've built.

Enough typing for now though, onto the build pics.



Parts:
<a href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/11719071@N08/1155057627/" title="Photo Sharing"><img src="https://farm2.static.flickr.com/1161/1155057627_10961f1256_m.jpg" width="180" height="240" alt="DSCF3579" /></a>

Upper Section:
<a href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/11719071@N08/1155916282/" title="Photo Sharing"><img src="https://farm2.static.flickr.com/1268/1155916282_c1214117ab_m.jpg" width="180" height="240" alt="DSCF3582" /></a>

Fin Can:
<a href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/11719071@N08/1155921860/" title="Photo Sharing"><img src="https://farm2.static.flickr.com/1145/1155921860_190426c3ab_m.jpg" width="180" height="240" alt="DSCF3585" /></a>

Motor Retention:
<a href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/11719071@N08/1155074237/" title="Photo Sharing"><img src="https://farm2.static.flickr.com/1096/1155074237_df58217108_m.jpg" width="240" height="180" alt="DSCF3587" /></a>

The Final Product:
<a href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/11719071@N08/1155059325/" title="Photo Sharing"><img src="https://farm2.static.flickr.com/1373/1155059325_18ad2c08e5.jpg" width="375" height="500" alt="DSCF3590" /></a>

Overall this was a really fun build and a big learning experience. As much as I'd like to say I did a really good paint job, I didn't; the pics make it look a LOT better than it is. I still have a lot to learn, but this is a good start for me, I think. I remember reading somewhere that someone thought L1 wasn't a challenging enough build, so I did something a little harder, and (I hope) a little unique in the HPR realm.

I should have a flight under my belt come Sunday, so look for some flight pics then.

 

[Gregor]

Nice rocket! When you attach the shock chord to the ubolt is it permanent or can you get at it if you wanted to switch it out? I haven't done my level one yet so am new to all the details.

 

[Fore Check]

That sure is purdy! Well done!

:congrats:


(I'm a sucker for a cool upscale!)



BTW: Is there a 3" Guardian rocksim file floating around? I'm too lazy to go searching or build a file myself.
Should fly nicely on something like an H165R with a short (6 sec.) delay, or really stretch its legs on an I161W!!

 

[bigone5500]

Very nice paint job...you have done well!

*pats Aviator on the back*

If you can do it...take a video of the flight. What will your first flight be on? G64?

 

[aviator]

Nice rocket! When you attach the shock chord to the ubolt is it permanent or can you get at it if you wanted to switch it out? I haven't done my level one yet so am new to all the details.

Thank you. I could get to the u-bolt if I really want to, but it would involve a bent clothes hanger and a lot of fiddling. I really couldn't fit my hand down a 3" tube anyways. I couldn't actually remove an old shock cord, just put a new one on. Something to work on for my next build?

Is there a 3" Guardian rocksim file floating around? I'm too lazy to go searching or build a file myself.
Should fly nicely on something like an H165R with a short (6 sec.) delay, or really stretch its legs on an I161W!!

I did a RockSim simulation beforehand because I wanted to be able to fly this rocket on high thrust G's as well as L1 and possibly a small L2 motor. It has enough room to fit a 38/720 AT casing. I could probably stuff a 38/1080 AT casing in there, but I don't think I'll try. That's a LONG way off in terms of time and money anyways.

Oh, and btw, it isn't an EXACT upscale. I fudged things a little to make a 3" to 2.14" tube work. IIRC, I used a scale factor of 2.31:1.

Very nice paint job...you have done well!

*pats Aviator on the back*

If you can do it...take a video of the flight. What will your first flight be on? G64?

Thanks. This was my first really BIG rocket that I attempted an all out paint scheme, so I'm pretty happy with how it came out.

The G64 was the hands-down choice for my first flight. I saw White Lightning, Redline, BlackJack, and Blue Thunder motors all in relatively short succession at NARAM-49. I've got to say, the White Lightning consistently gave the best effects of the four propellants (unless you do a night launch, then Redline hands down). What do you think the chances of a 29mm Sparky are?

 

[dpoceta]

What do you think the chances of a 29mm Sparky are?

Not sure about a 29mm, but you could put an AMW I220 in it. I think there are a few other 38mm sparky motors too.

 

[MarkM]

I think there are a few other 38mm sparky motors too.

Yup.

AMW has the larger I315
Loki has the H100 and I216 (Spitfire) with a J reload pending certification. These are new and I haven't seen the Loki's yet.

As far as 29's....only time will tell if the recent collaboration between AMW and CTI will produce a 29mm sparky.

 

[Jacobgold91]

Yup.

AMW has the larger I315
Loki has the H100 and I216 (Spitfire) with a J reload pending certification. These are new and I haven't seen the Loki's yet.

As far as 29's....only time will tell if the recent collaboration between AMW and CTI will produce a 29mm sparky.

Did they ever officially announce that? And if so when? I spoke to paul a while back and he told me about it. Im so excited!

 

[MarkM]

Did they ever officially announce that? And if so when? I spoke to paul a while back and he told me about it. Im so excited!

Nothing "official." It was in their "merger" announcement. To quote from that annoucement: "Both companies are also planning 24mm and 29mm systems that will include Brand A compatibility as the product line expands."

Which loads they'll make for 29mm or when they'll be available is, obviously, unknown at this point. I just mentioned a 29mm sparky is only a possibility given the statement above from their press release.

 

[aviator]

Well, as I said, HPR flights are a little ways off yet, but I'm hoping to do that sooner rather than later.

I've been looking through motors, and I am unsure of whose system to buy. I want to be able to use a sparky motor if possible, but I want to keep the system and reloads relatively inexpensive. I've looked at Aerotech, AMW, Cesaroni, and Loki. Here's what I've seen so far, but correct me if I'm wrong. This is for 38mm Motors, an H sized complete casing.

Aerotech:

• Expensive Casing (Rouse Tech) (~$100)
• Inexpensive Reloads (~$25 per)
• Wide Variety of Options (5 different propellants)

AMW:

• Medium Priced casing (~$80)
• Medium Priced reloads ($28 per)
• Pretty wide variety (4 propellants)

Cesaroni:

• VERY Inexpensive Casing (~$30)
• Expensive Reloads (~$31 per)
• Small variety (3 propellants)

Loki:

• Inexpensive Casing (~$60)
• Cheap Reloads (~$20 per)
• Pretty wide variety (4 propellants)

I think compiling this list made up my mind. Definitely going Loki, despite the lesser known name. Not to mention they have the sparky motor (H100 Spitfire) I want. Yays !

 

[Fore Check]

Hey Aviator:

There is one major factor you must consider when pledging your allegiance with a line of motors: availability to you.

Who's your on-site vendor with your club? Does he have a nice selection of Loki products available? Can he (or will he?)

My on-site vendor doesn't carry Loki stuff. When I asked him about that, well, let's just say he did but is no longer interested in doing so.

 

[aviator]

Hey Aviator:

There is one major factor you must consider when pledging your allegiance with a line of motors: availability to you.

Who's your on-site vendor with your club? Does he have a nice selection of Loki products available? Can he (or will he?)

My on-site vendor doesn't carry Loki stuff. When I asked him about that, well, let's just say he did but is no longer interested in doing so.

That's a surprise. Anyways, the NAR club I belong to doesn't sanction the HPR stuff because our field is barely large enough for G's, so the vendor doesn't carry anything besides Quest, Estes, and ModRoc/MPR Aerotech. I'd probably launch with Tripoli Pittsburgh if I did end up getting my cert, or just once a year at NARAM. Anyone know what motors the Tripoli Pittsburgh vendors carries?

Again, my cert flight is a LONG ways off yet, so I have some time to contemplate this.

One more question, if I wanted to purchase HPR motors in advance, do I need a LEUP and all that other ATF crap?

 

[Fore Check]

One more question, if I wanted to purchase HPR motors in advance, do I need a LEUP and all that other ATF crap?

Yes. I haven't gone through the process of getting those permits, so I strictly fly "sponsored" and fly what I buy on site. That's why I posted what I did about on-site availability.

If you get an LEUP and don't mind paying hazmat shipping fees to get your desired reloads from on-line vendors (meaning no worries of needing the vendor to be on site) then my post regarding on-site availability is irrelevant.

 

[MarkM]

One more question, if I wanted to purchase HPR motors in advance, do I need a LEUP and all that other ATF crap?

Yes! Any motor with over 62.5g of propellant (basically an H motor) requires a LEUP AND approved storage. You don't personally have to have storage, but you need to have what's known as contingency storage. Contingency storage refers to someone else who has a LEUP with storage permit allowing you to store motors in their magazine (a letter to the ATF from that storage person needs to be enclosed with your application).

Also, while some vendors are allowing purchasing at the field (and you MUST fly the motor that day) without a LEUP, others do not. Check with your vendor on his policy.

There are literally hundreds of threads here on TRF concerning LEUPs that should be able to answer most of your questions.

From your brief explanation, it seems you might not be flying HP motors all that often, in which case it might be best to just buy your motors on-site on an "as needed" basis. Then, you need to be certain you'll be able to purchase motors for your hardware on site. Loki make great motors, but they are the least available from local vendors in my experience. Aerotech, on the other hand, are the most widely available; I don't think there is an onsite dealer that doesn't carry Aerotech. The decision is yours, but think it over carefully. You don't want to invest money in hardware to fly motors you cannot readily obtain.

 

[aviator]

First off, I flew the Guardian in somewhat rainy weather earlier today on an Aerotech RMS 29mm G64-4W. It was a good flight with a somewhat angled boost and lots of flame, noise, and smoke. The recovery system didn't work exactly as planned, but it recovered with little damage, mostly just some muddy spots. Pix to come as I get them uploaded.

Back to HPR cert. stuff: Can someone point me in the right direction to find information about LEUPs and explosive lockers and all that other good stuff I need to store HPR motors? I'm not planning on getting anything, but I would like to research the possibility.

Also, if there's someone from Tripoli Pittsburgh floating around here somewhere, I'd like to know what vendors are out your way and what motors they carry. Also, would it be worth joining Tripoli in addition to the NAR to do HPR stuff? I see a bunch of people with dual membership here.

Thanks for all of your help, guys.

 

[MarkM]

Also, would it be worth joining Tripoli in addition to the NAR to do HPR stuff? I see a bunch of people with dual membership here.

Which organization (TRA or NAR) is the club you will do your certification with affiliated with? You've mentioned Tripoli Pittsburgh.are they also NAR? Keep in mind that while TRA sanctioned clubs honor NAR certifications (and vice versa), they cannot actually conduct each other's certifications. You must be a member of the organization for which the club is affiliated with to do your certification. A TRA club cannot conduct a NAR certification unless 1) qualified NAR members are part of the club and present to sign your certification paperwork or 2) the club has dual affiliation.

If there isn't an issue there, then another reason to join TRA is for doing research motors. Only TRA allows research motors....and only at special launches and by Level 2 or higher individuals.

If there isn't an issue with membership & certification and you aren't interested in research (or it's a long ways off), then there isn't much benefit to joining TRA on top of your NAR membership.

 

[lppa2006]

Aviator,

Nice build, I just finished mine up this week (tooke me 4 months, ya know busy, money, procrastinating, laziness, motivation, etc etc excuses, LOL)

My build thread is here:
https://rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?t=36980

Like i just posted on there Ill have the finished picture up soon.... Also glad to see u managed to keep it capable of "G"s... Mine got HEAVY, mostly because I put all thread clear through the CR's in the MMT for a remoavble baffle system, and i tried to make it DD capable by using an e-bay, which wont be used for awhile....

Anyway looks really good and good luck on your L1 when you go for it... My guardian project was also constructed for my L1 Cert (2nd attempt), now hopefully ill get to go for my L1 again soon

GURADIAN RULES!!!! hehehehe

 

[TeenRocketNerd]

Great Job!

I'm working (slowly) on a 4" upscale Guardian at present... Those main fins are going to be H-U-G-E...

Nice work- make sure to give us a flight report.

 

[aviator]

I'm digging up my long dead L1 thread because- OMG GASP- I finally did my L1! Yay! I flew an H128W at NARAM-50 last Friday in my Guardian. It was a flawless flight right to about 1800'. Parachutes tangled a little on ejection, but it was a great flight otherwise. Here are some launch pictures for everyone to drool over.

<a href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/11719071@N08/2748766858/" title="Guardian 1 by The Aviator 11, on Flickr"><img src="https://farm4.static.flickr.com/3078/2748766858_f4dab8c339.jpg" width="322" height="500" alt="Guardian 1" /></a>

<a href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/11719071@N08/2747934113/" title="Guardian 2 by The Aviator 11, on Flickr"><img src="https://farm3.static.flickr.com/2199/2747934113_f153ecff32.jpg" width="354" height="500" alt="Guardian 2" /></a>

And then one with me holding it after just because I can.

<a href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/11719071@N08/2747951119/" title="IMG_0835 by The Aviator 11, on Flickr"><img src="https://farm4.static.flickr.com/3261/2747951119_cd0e464766.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="IMG_0835" /></a>

 

[Johnnie]

Wow!! Excellent photos...congrats on the big L1...now what?

Johnnie

 

[n5wd]

I'm digging up my long dead L1 thread because- OMG GASP- I finally did my L1! Yay! I flew an H128W at NARAM-50 last Friday in my Guardian.

Congratulations on the L1, Brian... looks like a lot of folks had major fun at The Meadows that weekend!

 

[aviator]

Wow!! Excellent photos...congrats on the big L1...now what?

Johnnie

Very good question. I want to do my L2 at NARAM next year, but there's a good chance that college and R/C flying might get in the way of that. I am debating on whether or not I want to risk this baby on an AT J350, but after simming out to 1mi @ Mach 1, I think I should better not. I might finally do a 4" rocket! Just for kicks, I think I'll put the world's largest flexie inside. I'm going to have fun with it whatever I do.

 

[loopy]

Awesome job! Congratulations on the cert, and on the great rocket! Beautiful lift off shots, too!