How early ok to build engines?

[Tractionengines]

This varies location by location. Especially between different countries. ALL the Organizations can say is FOLLOW THE RULES ESTABLISHED BY "YOUR" LOCAL AUTHORITY HAVING JURISDICTION...(If YOU don't know "tread lightly", With a lot of common sense.) The Organizations can NOT keep track of each and every local law. (and, constant changes.)

Same with ejection charge testing. Some people CAN do in their yards, some CAN'T, some feel it's one way, but it actually is the other. As more places get the "gunshot detection systems", get clarification; if they install it in your area. When I talked to a number of people at the local sheriff department, the consensus was the system COULD/WILL trigger an automated response for all but the smallest charges.

 

[Maxwelljets]

In this instance, my concern would be more about a fully assembled N being transported multiple times to and from a site that's probably a long way from home, as you'd need a high altitude launch site. However, as you are asking me, that means you don't KNOW, and that's an issue.
Again, this is where the international bodies, Tripoli and NAR could provide guidance based on best practice. If that means we all need to buy roof racks with secure boxes, so be it. Better to all be on the right side of police question time than the wrong side. To have some best practice guidelines from our represantive bodies than to not have it

The ATFE has a document covering rules for transportation of explosives.

In it, they clearly state that the DOT does not regulate the transportation of explosives for personal use:


Since APCP is specifically exempted from ATFE regulations, this means that transportation of APCP rocket motors for personal use is not regulated by either the DOT or the ATFE.

 

[Conway Stevens]

The ATFE has a document covering rules for transportation of explosives.

In it, they clearly state that the DOT does not regulate the transportation of explosives for personal use:
View attachment 600717

Since APCP is specifically exempted from ATFE regulations, this means that transportation of APCP rocket motors for personal use is not regulated by either the DOT or the ATFE.

This is correct. Has been for years.

 

[sharkbait]

What's your point. There's nothing here I'd take to court.

Point is private citizens and personal use most always follow a different set of rules and regulations than commercial carriers or bulk shippers

 

[Steve Shannon]

ATF rules don’t apply to DOT. DOT lists some materials as “explosives” even though they are not classified as explosives by ATF.
However, DOT only regulates hazardous materials which are “in commerce.”
A private party transporting hazardous materials for personal use is not affected in the USA:
Here’s a quote from a government website:
(8) Question: Are hazardous materials being transported for personal use subject to the HMR? For example, are pesticides that are transported from a store by individuals to treat their garden subject to the HMR?

Answer: The answer is no. Under part 171, the phrase "in commerce" means in furtherance of a commercial enterprise. Transportation in a private motor vehicle for personal use is not considered in furtherance of a commercial enterprise even when transported in a leased or rented vehicle.

 

[SparkyVT]

I am wondering how far ahead of a scheduled launch is it OK to put your reloads together for your motors? I know aerotech recommends not opening the road kit until ready for it, but it is nice to do it ahead of the launch if possible for myself. Is the main thing to keep them dry so they don’t take on moisture before the launch? Such as in a low humidity room?

Snap-ring motors are different. I personally do not recommend leaving the snap-rings inserted for more than a few hours or a day. The rings will lose thier springiness and relax over time. I left some snap-rings in a 75mm motor for about 2-3 months and was shocked when I compared it later to brand new snap-rings. I had to see it to believe it.

 

[Conway Stevens]

Snap-ring motors are different. I personally do not recommend leaving the snap-rings inserted for more than a few hours or a day. The rings will lose thier springiness and relax over time. I left some snap-rings in a 75mm motor for about 2-3 months and was shocked when I compared it later to brand new snap-rings. I had to see it to believe it.

Ive had snap ring motors assembled for over a year fired fine no issues. The snap ring wont fail because yhe compression is still inside the tolerance of where its kept in the grove. Snap rings are inexpensive to replace once used

 

[smstachwick]

Better to all be on the right side of police question time than the wrong side. To have some best practice guidelines from our represantive bodies than to not have it

Much of the time the cops don’t even know the law they’re charged with enforcing. Our club on one occasion had a run-in with a park ranger (who, yes, are as peace officers here) who took it upon herself to shut down launch day despite all permits being on-site and ready for inspection.

I believe the club officers complained to the Parks department, who reviewed the case and kindly told her to get rekt.

That story is secondhand though, so do with that what you will. What I would do is not worry excessively about the initial phase of police questioning. As long as you can get out of the initial encounter without getting cuffed or shot for no reason, you’re probably going to be OK.

 

[OzHybrid]

ATF rules don’t apply to DOT. DOT lists some materials as “explosives” even though they are not classified as explosives by ATF.
However, DOT only regulates hazardous materials which are “in commerce.”
A private party transporting hazardous materials for personal use is not affected in the USA:
Here’s a quote from a government website:
(8) Question: Are hazardous materials being transported for personal use subject to the HMR? For example, are pesticides that are transported from a store by individuals to treat their garden subject to the HMR?

Answer: The answer is no. Under part 171, the phrase "in commerce" means in furtherance of a commercial enterprise. Transportation in a private motor vehicle for personal use is not considered in furtherance of a commercial enterprise even when transported in a leased or rented vehicle.

So Tripoli has rules about use of metals in construction, but 22Ibs of rocket propellant inside your car is OK. (In the US) Wow.....

 

[Steve Shannon]

So Tripoli has rules about use of metals in construction, but 22Ibs of rocket propellant inside your car is OK. (In the US) Wow.....

Wow? Tripoli only regulates the operation of its launches and the rockets which fly there. We don’t have any authority to make rules to regulate what people do in their own homes or in their cars or anywhere else. Nor would we want such authority.
Personally, I store my rocket motors in a metal box and carry them in my trailer.
We are all volunteers. Maybe instead of criticizing “the organizations” for not telling you how to do everything you should put together a guide that helps others.

 

[SolarYellow]

America is not Australia. Thank God.

 

[OzHybrid]

Wow? Tripoli only regulates the operation of its launches and the rockets which fly there. We don’t have any authority to make rules to regulate what people do in their own homes or in their cars or anywhere else. Nor would we want such authority.
Personally, I store my rocket motors in a metal box and carry them in my trailer.
We are all volunteers. Maybe instead of criticizing “the organizations” for not telling you how to do everything you should put together a guide that helps others.

I've not criticised Tripoli. I have said that this is the type of legal minefield that they could assist with. Which would be better than individual members trying to figure this out themselves. I have used the Tripoli limitation on the use of metals to highlight the disparity between those rules and the apparent legal ability to transport 22lbs of rocket fuel in a car in the US and I acknowledge that Tripoli does NOT make those road rules.
It is Tripoli and NAR that provide the effective legal framework for all of us (including Australia) to be able to undertake launching of rockets by taking all the appropriate regulations and effectively consolidating them in our rules and procedures. The rules and guidelines are Tripoli and NAR territory. Happy to assist Tripoli put together guidelines for transportation in Australia. But I'm clearly not across US regulation.

 

[OzHybrid]

America is not Australia. Thank God.

Indeed. A SU G motor is Au$100 here.

 

[Titan II]

So Tripoli has rules about use of metals in construction, but 22Ibs of rocket propellant inside your car is OK. (In the US) Wow.....

I have used the Tripoli limitation on the use of metals to highlight the disparity between those rules and the apparent legal ability to transport 22lbs of rocket fuel in a car in the US...

That is an absurd comparison. At a launch the motor is active (remember, you actually light it) and you could have a Cato. Twenty two pounds of propellant is not going to go off sitting in your car. Please leave the Nanny State regulations in Australia.

 

[OzHybrid]

That is an absurd comparison. At a launch the motor is active (remember, you actually light it) and you could have a Cato. Twenty two pounds of propellant is not going to go off sitting in your car. Please leave the Nanny State regulations in Australia.

A launch motor is vertical and is deliberately lit when everyone is clear. One in a vehicle would be horizontal and accidentally lit. A risk assessment matrix would disagree with you. You can of course change the risk assessment, but the consequence of it if it happened would be the highest and there is no avoiding that. So now you're just deciding about the probability, which is more than impossible. So you're on the table. I'm not sure name calling on a nationalistic basis is useful. The matrix below is just a generic one to illustrate things.

 

[Conway Stevens]

A launch motor is vertical and is deliberately lit when everyone is clear. One in a vehicle would be horizontal and accidentally lit. A risk assessment matrix would disagree with you. You can of course change the risk assessment, but the consequence of it if it happened would be the highest and there is no avoiding that. So now you're just deciding about the probability, which is more than impossible. So you're on the table. I'm not sure name calling on a nationalistic basis is useful. The matrix below is just a generic one to illustrate things.
View attachment 600807

So im curious. Why do you see an assembled rocket motor, Put into a case/storage container. With the open ends taped shut. No where near an ignitor. No ignitor installed. No where near anything flammable. No where near anything that will ignite it and treated with the proper respect, such a HIGH danger. But what data do you have that shows doing so is an issue. Do i agree there is an increase in potential... sure but how much?

Then at what point do you want the national orgs to stop creating rules. Next it will be the dangers of driving to a launch and speeding. Btw.... issues driving to and from a launch are probably more dangerous and life threatening than an properly cared for rocket motor that's assembled inside your car/truck by leaps and bounds.

 

[sharkbait]

So im curious. Why do you see an assembled rocket motor, Put into a case/storage container. With the open ends taped shut. No where near an ignitor. No ignitor installed. No where near anything flammable. No where near anything that will ignite it and treated with the proper respect, such a HIGH danger. But what data do you have that shows doing so is an issue. Do i agree there is an increase in potential... sure but how much?

Then at what point do you want the national orgs to stop creating rules. Next it will be the dangers of driving to a launch and speeding. Btw.... issues driving to and from a launch are probably more dangerous and life threatening than an properly cared for rocket motor that's assembled inside your car/truck by leaps and bounds.

Half the time the folks at our launches have a hell of a time getting their motors to light when they actually are attempting to ignite them

 

[OzHybrid]

So im curious. Why do you see an assembled rocket motor, Put into a case/storage container. With the open ends taped shut. No where near an ignitor. No ignitor installed. No where near anything flammable. No where near anything that will ignite it and treated with the proper respect, such a HIGH danger. But what data do you have that shows doing so is an issue. Do i agree there is an increase in potential... sure but how much?

Then at what point do you want the national orgs to stop creating rules. Next it will be the dangers of driving to a launch and speeding. Btw.... issues driving to and from a launch are probably more dangerous and life threatening than an properly cared for rocket motor that's assembled inside your car/truck by leaps and bounds.

I don't believe there is a formal transport procedure stating that "An assembled rocket motor, Put into a case/storage container. With the open ends taped shut. Nowhere near an ignitor. No ignitor installed. Nowhere near anything flammable. Nowhere near anything that will ignite it" it's not defined anywhere. Even as a guideline. Formalising that would mitigate the risk plus the other bits that would be considered while you go through that assessment process.. Could be done by the motor manufacturers or by the national orgs. The national orgs would give a unified approach whereas if say Aerotech did it, someone would say "that doesn't apply to me , I'm using Cessaroni, I roll my own .... etc.

Anyway, I'll work on Aus guidelines. You guys either do or don't work on yours. Whatever.

 

[Antares JS]

I don't believe there is a formal transport procedure stating that "An assembled rocket motor, Put into a case/storage container. With the open ends taped shut. Nowhere near an ignitor. No ignitor installed. Nowhere near anything flammable. Nowhere near anything that will ignite it" it's not defined anywhere. Even as a guideline.

It has been a rule forever that you do not install the igniter until the rocket is on the pad, ready to go.

 

[afadeev]

People have been doing it for years is not a good defence. There seems to be an unreasonable amount of differing views to suggest it's not legally clear.

Not really.
There are different legal frameworks in different countries. Transporting assembled motors for personal consumption is not regulated in the US. It may be in other countries.

I'd doubt Tripoli would issue a formal statement saying it is OK. Is Tripoli formally saying it's OK. Carried in the cab or external? Maximum weight? What segregation is required? What if batteries are shipped at the same time?
Vehicle insurance?

What country are you asking about?
Do you want Tripoli (or NAR) to invest into legal analysis for all 195 countries out there, including Vatican?

I'm sure no-one is transporting a fully assembled motor inside thier vehicle..............however convenient that would be.

I do. In the US.
I may, or may not, choose to act differently in Vatican.
Or in Afghanistan. Or in Australia.

What's your point. There's nothing here I'd take to court.

Then, perhaps, you should hire your own attorney, and get your own legal opinion to address your concerns, for your legal jurisdiction.
And who is taking whom to what court, anyway?

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