Help - Launch Failure

[DiddyKong]

Hi all,

I bought a starter kit yesterday and followed the instructions through in detail, however when it came to launch there was a problem.

It seems the igniter went off but when I pressed launch nothing happened. After taking the motor and igniter out I noticed the ignitor looked charred and the powder at the end crumbled away when I ran my fingers over it.

I thought maybe it wasn't pressed deep enough into the motor so I tried with another 2 ignitors and the same problem. I also tried a different motor but to no avail.

Could anyone please help me try and identify where I am going wrong.

Many thanks,

Diddy

 

[sodmeister]

I can think od maybe 4 things that could be wrong;

1-perhaps all motors were moist at one time and are all faulty...hmmmm...maybe ,but doudtful.


2 - perhaps igniters are all faulty...but not very likely.

3- igniters are not in deep enough to make contact with powder charge ,and plastic cap retainer not in properly to keep igniter in contact with powder.Again....on all 3 tries......hmmm...possible.

4- not enough current in the launch controller reaching the igniter and not creating enough "POOF" to ignite the powder charge.Check voltage and continuity.

Well ,that`s all i got.

pAuL

 

[stickershock23]

One thing to try sometimes older estes type motors get a little bit of oxidation on the end of the motor (where you need to ignite it)

If I am using OLDER motors I take a tiny screwdriver and scratch inside the nozzle just a tiny bit. find one that fits inside use almost NO pressure and twist it back and forth 2 or 3 times.

Put your igniter in make sure its all the way in and touching the freshly exposed black powder. put the little plug in and your ready to go!

Better luck!

 

[Peartree]

Put your igniter in make sure its all the way in and touching the freshly exposed black powder. put the little plug in and your ready to go!

Better luck!

This was my problem when I first started. You really must be certain that the igniter tip is touching the black powder in the motor. then, while it its still touching, carefully insert the correct sized plug so the igniter can't pull away.

 

[shreadvector]

1) What brand of motors and igniters?

2) You said the "ignitor looked charred and the powder at the end crumbled away when I ran my fingers over it." We need to know what brand of igniter because they all are different. Estes igniters have a small black tip of "pyrogen" (that's what the stuff on the tip is called that burns and sparks/fizzes when it's heated up by the hot wire in the igniter) at the tip. The Estes pyrogen will not crumble away like a powder when new. If crushed because the igniter plug was used incorrectly, the pyrogen will crumble, but it will not smell "burnt". If it has burned, there will be much less remaining than when you started and it will smell "burnt" and you will either see the tiny bridge wire at the tip of the igniter or you will see the tiny bridge wire burned in half. I will not comment on other brands of igniters until we hear what brand you used.

3) When you hooked up your igniter to the micro clips on the launch system and inserted the safety key, did the light come on to indicate that you had a continuous electrical circuit ("continuity") or did it remain unlit? If it lit, then electricity could get through, but the thicker wires of the igniter could have been touching and prevented the electricity from reaching the tip bridge wire and it would never heat up and ignite. The crumbled pyrogen would simply be the result of it being crushed during installation. If the light did not illuminate (light up) when you pressed the key in, then you clearly had broken the igniter bridge wire during installation.

4) Could one or more of the batteries have been installed backwards, thereby reducing the available power from the launch controller? A sign of this is a very dim illumination of the continuity lamp when you install the safety key.

5) Estes motors do not EVER "oxidize" on the exposed surface of the black powder propellant. The only motors that develop a crust of oxidation on exposed surfaces are composite propellant motors - and normal Estes motors are not composite. The Estes motors have indeed had occasional problems with nozzle dust covering the propellant inside the nozzle. You can tell very easily if this is the case by looking inside the nozzle with a bright flashlight (like an LED light from Harbor Freight or a nice bright Mag-Lite). The propellant is black or dark gray and the nozzle is much lighter color. Deep inside the nozzle you should see a bit of the black/gray propellant. If so, then it will ignite just fine. If it's covered in dust, then you need to clean it out with a non-sparking tool, like a toothpick or a straightened paper clip. DO NOT drill or scrape with a drill bit. Again, people use drill bits on composite propellant (and the delay elements) because they use a different rubbery based propellant. Black Powder can ignite if heated or if exposed to sparks.


So, tell us more and if you feel like including photos, that will help - but a good description will certainly be fine.

 

[DiddyKong]

Hi all,

Thank you very much for your replies.

I'll try to answer a few questions asked.

It is an este C6-5 motor. New from the packet.

The light was bright when I pressed the safety catch in, however it went out when I pressed the launch button. Is this normal? I only pressed the Launch button, NOT held it down. So maybe it didn't have time to ignite properly?

There is black powder still left on the ends, however it is just cracked and looks used.

And finally is there another way to ignite the motor without the use of an igniter? Because otherwise I'll have to make a 45 minute journey to the nearest hobby store and buy another 3 motors with ignitors.

Thanks in advance,

Diddy

 

[shreadvector]

You must press in the safety key and hold it tight and when it's time to launch, SIMULTANEOUSLY press the launch button and hold it down until the wire in the igniter can heat up.

If you let go of the launch button and keep the safety key pressed in and the light is still lit brightly, then the igniter has not fired OR you have short circuited the wires (clips may be touching or the thick wires in the igniter are touching each other and preventing the electricity from reaching the thin wire at the tip).

Even if the black pyrogen is completey gone from the tip, an Estes igniter will still ignite a motor IF the thin bridge wire at the tip is still intact and if you install it properly so that it touches the propellant and is held in securely by the plastic plug.

Replacement igniters can be made, but you will need a more powerful launch controller. An Estes controller can be adapted to deliver more power by bypassing the battery compartment and using a larger 6 volt battery or a 12 volt battery. Even 8 AA alkaline batteries in a holder will work for nichrome wire igniters.

I've got 25 foot coils of 32 guage nichrome wire for $5.00 and if you want to pay via PayPal I can ship it for a grand total of $6.00

Instructions on how they work are attached.

Hi all,

Thank you very much for your replies.

I'll try to answer a few questions asked.

It is an este C6-5 motor. New from the packet.

The light was bright when I pressed the safety catch in, however it went out when I pressed the launch button. Is this normal? I only pressed the Launch button, NOT held it down. So maybe it didn't have time to ignite properly?

There is black powder still left on the ends, however it is just cracked and looks used.

And finally is there another way to ignite the motor without the use of an igniter? Because otherwise I'll have to make a 45 minute journey to the nearest hobby store and buy another 3 motors with ignitors.

Thanks in advance,

Diddy

 

[DiddyKong]

SUCCESS!

We have Lift Off!!!

Thanks for all the advice. I put brand new AA batteries in and make extra sure that the ignitor was touching the bottom (also I used a small screwdriver to open it up a little (thanks stickershock)).

And I held launch for about 5-6 seconds before it actually ignited.

Unfortunatly the rocket went miles away and I'm going to have to buy a new one ... but what the hell it Launched

 

[shreadvector]

SUCCESS!

We have Lift Off!!!

Thanks for all the advice. I put brand new AA batteries in and make extra sure that the ignitor was touching the bottom (also I used a small screwdriver to open it up a little (thanks stickershock)).

And I held launch for about 5-6 seconds before it actually ignited.

Unfortunatly the rocket went miles away and I'm going to have to buy a new one ... but what the hell it Launched

It should ignite within 1 second of pushing the launch button if you are using fresh alkaline batteries. If you are using old alkaline batteries or "carbon-zinc" aks "Heavy Duty" you will have to hold the button for a long time and it still may not heat up the thin bridge wire of the igntier.

"Opening up" the nozzle will result in a reduction in thrust and possible vectored thrust, which is why I attempted to point out that this advice was BAD. NEVER "OPEN UP" the nozzle or drill into the propellant inside the nozzle throat. The most you should ever need to do is look inside and if you do not see dark black or gray propellant, you gently scrape the clay dust away to expose the propellant face. You do not want to alter or drill into the propellant and you do not want to make the nozzle throat larger.

 

[Mikus]

And finally is there another way to ignite the motor without the use of an igniter? Because otherwise I'll have to make a 45 minute journey to the nearest hobby store and buy another 3 motors with ignitors.

Always bring more igniters than motors, this will not be the last time you'll need another igniter. :y:

Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but some day....

 

[BartMan]

I'm sorry to hear your 1st launch experience was frustrating...stick with it, it will be worth the effort in the end!

The most common cause of igniter failure is the igniter doesn't make contact with the propellent long enough (or at all!) with the engine propellent. This is usually due to improper installation rather than a fault of the engine or igniter itself.

The following method of igniter installation has been very very reliable for me.

1) Inspect your igniter to be sure it is not broken or frayed or that the igniter 'coating' is cracked or peeling off.

2) Insert the igniter into the nozzle deeply until you feel it firmly butt up against the engine grain. (at this point I bend the external wire over with my thumb so the ends of the igniter leads project sideways and double check to be sure it's still abutting up against the propellent grain)

3) At this point many people insert a retainer plug into the nozzle BUT I prefer a different approach. I 'ball up' a tiny piece of recovery wadding into a ball just slightly bigger than the nozzle diameter and press this into the nozzle. It's a 'home made' plug so to speak. It should be just wide enough it doesn't fall through the nozzle but small enough it conforms to the nozzle walls holding the igniter in place.

4) Use the eraser end of a pencil to 'burnish down' your wadding plug flat so it is firmly in place. TIP: Remember when you bent the wire leads over before (in step 2)..the bend point should still be flush against the engine nozzle base...if not, your igniter moved and is possibly no longer in contact with the propellent grain...correct this and re-insert your wadding plug.

5) Finally, place a small square strip of masking tape accross the bottom of the rocket engine to secure everything in place (the wadding alone will usually keep things in place or the tape alone will usually hold things but both together will skyrocket (no pun intended) your success rate.

Now the only failure mode is if the igniter gets "yanked" (when you are hooking up your micro clips) causing things to dislodge. I like to minimize the chance of this by taping (again with masking tape) the insulated part of the launch electrical wire leads to the launch rod BELOW the rocket so the WEIGHT of the clips is taken up by the tape / launch rod and NOT the igniter leads comming from the rocket (I don't need the weight pulling everything out of the engine nozzle or even slightly moving the igniter which could cause it to lose contact with the fuel grain right?).

Ensure you have fresh batteries powering your launch controller...personally I find the 12V launch controllers a bit more reliable than the 6V! Insert your safety key and check for the continuity light which means you have a good circuit.

Inspect the ground and sky to be sure all is clear for launch and give your countdown...a "ZERO" firmly depress and HOLD DOWN your launch button and WHOOOOOSH!! your off and running!

Let me know how this works for you!

 

[gpoehlein]

I'll echo Mikus - pick up a couple packs of igniters and keep them in your range box. Not only will you have the occasional misfire, but sometimes you'll pull one out and it will be pre-broken. I have a small tin similar to an Altoids tin where I keep all my igniters (I have a couple storage boxes for my motors so I always break the motor packs down at home, put the motors in the box, igniters in the tin and the plugs in a separate compartment in the motor box. Oh, and while you're at it, can't hurt to grab an extra pack or two of wadding. It never hurts to have more launch accessories than you'll need!

 

[Mike Howie]

At a recent launch, there was a kid who just couldn't get his rocket to launch.
After going through about 5 Estes ignitors, I watched when he inserted a new
ignitor. What he was doing, was pushing the ignitor in too hard, making sure
to touch the BP. The bridge wire was breaking. With a little help, he got his
rocket up.