Hazmat Expensive

[YodaMcFly]

Just to throw in a couple of additional thoughts, not sure if these were mentioned. HazMat shipments also, usually, come "Adult Signature Required', which, again, is more "special handling". Although I haven't ordered rocket motors yet (see my Intro thread in the Watering Hole), I've been ordering quantities of black powder for years, and, yeah, the HazMat fees have gone up over the years. As a matter of fact, I think it was only two-three years ago that it went to the current $28.50, IIRC it was $25 not that long ago.

Short version, it's lots of special handling from end to end, and the only way to defray the costs is to order more. Of course, then you get into the rules about storage (which have Local, State and Federal elements), so you don't want to order too much. Best bet there is if you can get a few friends/club members to go in with you for a group buy.

 

[RodRocket]

Big box stores like Hobby Lobby pay the Haz Mat fees, and they can spread that cost out over the entire store. But a small rocketry vender cannot.

Haz Mat is regulated by the DOT and every driver who hauls Haz Mat has to have a back ground check, fingerprints, and take a special endorsement test to have it added to their drivers license. That all cost money. The Haz Mat regulations determine what can and cannot be shipped together. The driver must follow rules to stay in compliance. Like stopping every 100 miles to do tire checks. It is a lot more than a simple fee. A lot of extra work goes into handling Haz Mat shipments. And that cost gets handed down to the consumer. Either as a fee or added to the price of the products.

 

[DanFrank]

There are places that will waive HazMat prices if you buy $200 or more of motors at a time:

https://www.redarrowhobbies.com/

There are other companies that will waive Hazmat fees if your order is big enough.

 

[taiwanluthiers]

Which is not hard to do...

 

[DizWolf]

Knowing what goes on inside the inner working of shipping companies.... I'm willing to bet small volume hazmat shipping is done nearly at a loss. Break even at best. Many hands, much more work, and you have to make sure it keeps moving at the service standard speed. It's labor intensive, tons and tons of paperwork to keep track of, and I'd wager most of the employees handling/driving it are making more in the range of $25-30 an hour.

 

[Jesse]

I've always wondered... to get around paying Hazmat, couldn't companies split up the reload packs? For example, if your reload had 6 grains, you could save significantly by splitting it into two or three packages? Sure, you pay extra standard shipping, but you'd save on the Haz, so a good savings overall. It would take more effort on the vendor, but it would save for the customers.

Edit: I guess it's actually mass per grain that determines it, isn't it? That would shoot my idea in the foot.

 

[taiwanluthiers]

I think it has to do with the weight of the individual fuel grains. If each grain is under 30 grams then it does not need hazmat. Problem is Cesaroni is essentially a single use motor that slides into a metal casing, so they can't really get around that. Loki got around it by having grains less than 30 grams and packing them individually. But when you get into the J's and over it becomes hard to make each grain less than 30 grams, therefore they become hazmat (Also I think in the dark days before Judge Walton saved us all, before Safe Explosives Act, manufacturers would also get around the LEUP requirement by making fuel grains less than 62.5 grams)

So what would need to happen is they'd have to cut even big reloads into less than 30 grams (which I don't see how it's even possible with big reloads like M) and provide some kind of a "pyro glue" (basically APCP ingredients, with the AP separate from the rest of the ingredients, and 2 bottles for the required HTPB/curing agent) to allow the user to "glue" the grains together into the required size. The problem now becomes, can the user be assured that he could follow directions clearly, and also if APCP could even be glued in this manner without affecting thrust and possibly causing CATO. It means motor manufacturers would have to test it, and have orgs like NAR/TRA approve it (just like drilling delay grains for example, that used to not be allowed)

Also, when you're flying level 2, you're paying close to 100 dollars per load (and way over as the impulse range increases, with the price increasing by 80% with each jump in letter), 28 dollar hazmat fee isn't really high at that price range. And if dealers will waive hazmat fee with over 200 dollars in purchase, it isn't hard to do if you are flying level 2 or above (even level 1 is easy to exceed that)

 

[pyrobob]

I've always wondered... to get around paying Hazmat, couldn't companies split up the reload packs? For example, if your reload had 6 grains, you could save significantly by splitting it into two or three packages? Sure, you pay extra standard shipping, but you'd save on the Haz, so a good savings overall. It would take more effort on the vendor, but it would save for the customers.

Edit: I guess it's actually mass per grain that determines it, isn't it? That would shoot my idea in the foot.

Yeah, the mass of each grain, delay, tracking smoke, or whatever is the key criteria.

 

[bobkrech]

I've always wondered... to get around paying Hazmat, couldn't companies split up the reload packs? For example, if your reload had 6 grains, you could save significantly by splitting it into two or three packages? Sure, you pay extra standard shipping, but you'd save on the Haz, so a good savings overall. It would take more effort on the vendor, but it would save for the customers.

Edit: I guess it's actually mass per grain that determines it, isn't it? That would shoot my idea in the foot.

If you get a 24mm, 29mm or 38 mm AT reload kit you will see that the propellant grains are shipped in individual plastic bags each containing not more than 30 grams of propellant. You will also note that the delay grain and the igniters are also shipped in individual bags. All these smaller bags and the other parts are put in a bigger plastic bag as the reload kit as shown below, and multiple reload kits can be mailed in one shipping box. If the motor was preassembled as a Disposable Motor System then it would not be exempt from hazmat.

Bob