Agreed. It's not ideal, but it's not the end of the world either.
Guess for new rockets in the Estes 2024 Catalog
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Scott_650
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It’s the magnification effect of the internet - for the hundreds (likely thousands) of “normies” who are satisfied with their nifty new full color catalog that cost them less than a cup of fancy coffee there’s a few dozen of us who’d, as my dad says, would complain if you hung ‘em with a new rope.
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I'm a lot more bummed about the lack of interesting new rockets. Or very many old ones.
Or More rocketsThis is common.
By not listing pricing in the catalog, Estes can make one printing of the catalog and just include updated pricing sheets throughout the year.
Hmmm...I expect this means we will see at least one more price increase before the end of the year.
kelltym88
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I am dealing with this exact same issue...I may have already mentioned it here too....still waiting..It is amazing how they take a company known for it's amazing customer service and ruin it relatively quickly.....
Let’s try and be more positive folks. In these days of a cost of living crisis buying model rockets is probably not high on people’s bucket list. I would say Estes are making changes, some of which are not popular for good business reasons. The first of which being so the company may survive. There is always the alternative and closure of the company, and no rockets at all.
I would say Estes are passionate about their products, but a model has to sell in sufficient numbers to justify production. Hence some of the old favourites. Just some thoughts.
I would say Estes are passionate about their products, but a model has to sell in sufficient numbers to justify production. Hence some of the old favourites. Just some thoughts.
Capt. Eric
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We all want Estes to stay in business. Most of us do at least. I really don't care much about the catalog or missing prices. That's what the website is for. And bringing back old favorites is great, although I think they are a bit too pricey. New designs, like 'em or hate 'em is also good for business. I don't even mind a price increase of a buck or two across the board. What I don't like is them messing with their dealers (mandatory pricing), which in the end is really messing with their customers. And as was said, customer service was pretty awesome, and I often told others about how great they were. ("Yeah, my rocket blew up on a E12, but Estes replaced the motors and the kit, so I get to rebuild it better! They're great!") Now I can't even get them to reply to me. Even if the reply is "Stop whining and go to heck!" at least I know they read my damn email. And they have had so many mistakes with their website, it really is an embarrassment that costs them money.Let’s try and be more positive folks. In these days of a cost of living crisis buying model rockets is probably not high on people’s bucket list. I would say Estes are making changes, some of which are not popular for good business reasons. The first of which being so the company may survive. There is always the alternative and closure of the company, and no rockets at all.
I would say Estes are passionate about their products, but a model has to sell in sufficient numbers to justify production. Hence some of the old favourites. Just some thoughts.
There is a way to become more profitable without ruining your reputation and brand loyalty. They haven't found that path yet. Loyalty takes a long time to gain, and can be lost in an instant!
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Yeah, I understand wanting to protect the value of the brand by fighting discounting, but if it's Estes at MSRP or something else at market price, Estes is pricing themselves out of the market, especially on C through F motors. Fortunately, AC Supply seems so far to have lawyers guiding them in line with what I understood to be the law many, many years ago in a previous life.
mh9162013
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I'm not 100% sure that's correct. Until I was a BAR that spent regular time on TRF, I was unaware of any company that made model rocket kits (and engines) besides Estes. I imagine most average consumers are the same way.
I expect Estes raising prices will result in some lost customers and sales. But I also expect the rise in gross revenue despite lower sales will result in an increase in net income for Estes.
That's my perception of all this pricing hullabaloo, at least.
There is a heavy tendency in this thread (and this forum, and the internet, and the world) to take one's own experience (or opinion) and assume that it is representative of the population at large. Anecdata is not meaningless but it is also not a basis upon which to make apocalyptic pronouncements.
Evidence needed for three claims made in this thread:
1) Estes is pricing itself out of the market
2) Estes is ruining its customer service reputation
3) Omission of prices from the 2024 Estes catalog matters in any meaningful way in the world. "It annoys me" doesn't qualify.
Even if all three were true (I'm pretty sure none of them are), it would be a bummer but there are still a ton of other vendors making a ton of great products for this hobby these days. Estes is not the only game in town, other than for BP motors.
Evidence needed for three claims made in this thread:
1) Estes is pricing itself out of the market
2) Estes is ruining its customer service reputation
3) Omission of prices from the 2024 Estes catalog matters in any meaningful way in the world. "It annoys me" doesn't qualify.
Even if all three were true (I'm pretty sure none of them are), it would be a bummer but there are still a ton of other vendors making a ton of great products for this hobby these days. Estes is not the only game in town, other than for BP motors.
See, this is why I keep coming back here. Great word!
TRF wouldn't be the same without regular Estes bashing. That said I do feel for those experiencing any level of customer dissatisfaction. VENT ON! Brothers and Sisters!
I had a Cato issue a month or so ago. I submitted a request on their website form. Crickets. Then I sent an email - not through the website - but rather to "[email protected]" and they responded. It seems the web form is broken. A few others here have had the same experience.
Hans.
kelltym88
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I did that...still nothing....
Neil W said he needed proof.. well I am not the only person experiencing these customer service issues. In the past I never had any reason to complain, to the contrary, I praised them. I would not be complaining either if they simply took 30 seconds to tell me whatever it is they intend to do. My biggest issue with Estes customer service is the lack of communication. A customer should not have to constantly be asking for answers to questions that never are.
Ok...I'm off my soapbox...back to your regularly scheduled programming....
Scott_650
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This has been said before, by me as well as others, but one thing to keep in mind is that Estes is now, after a very long time, a privately owned, standalone company. We’re still in a transition period for what has to have been a very big change for how they operate now compared to being just another corporate income stream producer. It’s sink or swim time now - without reaching a viable, sustainable level of profitability they’re sunk, no “corporate backstop” in place, it’s all them or nothing. So yes, we’re going to see things like MAP (intended to help brick and mortar stores compete with online discounters), charging a fee for mailing out a catalog, a tendency to stick with safe designs that should sell well, reorienting towards .edu/STEM customers, catering to the adult buying gift for a child customers, etc…
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I sent a question to [email protected] and got back a response in a few days. Denise was helpful as usual.
For me, the catalog is for looking at the cool pictures with my kid and maybe finding something neat to pick up on my next order, and the web site (or local shop or other vendor website) is for checking prices and making buying decisions.
mh9162013
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For me, the lack of prices in the catalog is a bit of data hole in seeing how the prices have changed.
For example, I have a 1976 Estes Catalog where some rockets were under $1.00 (I believe the Mosquito was 69 cents).
Or seeing that Big Bertha was at one time a $4.95 kit (it's currently $30 at Estes and $26 at Amazon).
Of course, back then Bazooka Bubble Gum was 2 cents, and a comic book was 35 cents.
Inflation.
mh9162013
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That makes sense. Bummer to the catalog collectors, I guess.
mh9162013
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Not with their minimum order threshold for free shipping!
mh9162013
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True points. Estes has some pretty good sales that AC Supply doesn't though. At least for me, it means buying more often from Estes than AC Supply.
Capt. Eric
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You're lucky you got Denise on your case. Apparently Scott is (not) handling mine. He consolidated a couple of my submissions into one open case, but never sent me anything beyond an automated response, nor has he done anything from I can tell on my service sign in records.
As for evidence... no, I can't afford to run a National survey of Estes customers, broken down by retail outlets, and compared to satisfaction surveys vs Estes service case records. But I do know that only a year or so ago nearly everyone I spoke to or read posts from, including myself, shouted their praises. I had a couple of issues that they responded to in less than 24hrs and promptly resolved better than I had right to expect. But in the last 2 or 3 months I have heard and experienced the opposite. Nearly every comment based on experience has been negative (I don't count the "they're not so bad" or "give them a chance" posts since they are not based on any actual recent matters.). There are some occasional success stories, but they seem to be in the minority. And honestly, if the policy has changed to "we can't afford to make good on our exploding E12 engines anymore." I could accept that response. But that isn't what they are saying. They aren't saying or doing a damn thing! That's what pisses people off the most.
I find group buys are a great way to hit free shipping thresholds.
AC Supply is generally 30% off all the time (used to be 40% off, alas). Maybe I've missed some promotional mails, but my impression was that Estes runs a sale like that only once a year or so.
Edit to add: I wasn't counting the random sales like the nearly-free Der Big Red Maxes last spring, but I don't think we've seen a random sale like that since then.
mh9162013
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Yeah, Estes doesn't have sales very often that can overcome AC Supply's "everyday low price." But because I don't make major online purchased that often, I can afford to wait for those Estes once or twice a year sales that I just can't pass up (and can't be matched by anyone else).
Capt. Eric
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I'll take advantage of occasional Estes sales on kits that I like, or when their website screws up and lets you order a BDRM for $12, but frankly I found their Christmas sales lackluster (just my opinion) and didn't buy anything, unlike in the last few years when I ordered multiple times. I did however buy about $200 in engines and other items from AC Supply during the same period. So no Estes 2023 rocket ornament last year. But I did get the Apogee one!
I know. Anecdotal evidence is not conclusive. But I got the same reaction from friends when discussing it last Christmas season.
Good point. In company with a friend who hadn't already used the launch_2023 code, I went in heavy on the Estes sale around Thanksgiving when that coupon stacked. But we also do group buys throughout the year to get motors from AC Supply.
mh9162013
Well-Known Member
I liked Estes' most recent Christmas sale, but they had a sale that lined up well with what I wanted to buy, which I could stack on another discount code. The problem was that I bought a lot of scale kits (subject to the sale) and they didn't count the Red Nova or the Nike-X as scale kits (but they did count the Bull Pup and Patriot).I'll take advantage of occasional Estes sales on kits that I like, or when their website screws up and lets you order a BDRM for $12, but frankly I found their Christmas sales lackluster (just my opinion) and didn't buy anything, unlike in the last few years when I ordered multiple times. I did however buy about $200 in engines and other items from AC Supply during the same period. So no Estes 2023 rocket ornament last year. But I did get the Apogee one!
I know. Anecdotal evidence is not conclusive. But I got the same reaction from friends when discussing it last Christmas season.
Seriously? I know the Red Nova is a fictional rocket, but Estes' Patriot is so far off from the real deal, calling it a scale model is a stretch that's equivalent to calling a Red Nova a scale model.
As for Nike-X, that's a true scale model that Estes should have included in the sale, but choose not (to out of greed or laziness, presumably).
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