Glue shopping

[Rich Holmes]

I went to Home Depot tonight for some 2x4s and nails, and while there stopped off in the glues and fillers aisle.

I wasn't surprised, from what I've read around here, not to find the glue formerly known as Titebond Molding and Trim (now Titebond No Drip No Run or something like that), but I was positively shocked to find no white glue.
View attachment 140450
My dad used to use nothing but Elmer's Glue-All for his wood gluing while I was growing up (a thousand years ago), and now our HD apparently doesn't even carry it. Just the yellow carpenter's glue, which I've used and like a lot for most things, but I want to try white glue for certain applications.

They don't carry Elmer's Carpeter's Wood Filler either;
View attachment 140451
they have Elmer's Carpenter's Wood Filler Max.
View attachment 140452
I've used the Max stuff to fill balsa and I haven't been too impressed. It goes on very thick and hard and chunky and it's a major pain to sand out. I want to try the non Max stuff.

They had a couple of brands of 5 minute epoxy, LocTite and Gorilla I think.

So I went on to Lowe's, which I generally tend to pass over in favor of HD. But they did have Elmer's Glue-All. And they had both the Max and non Max filler. I noticed the Max stuff was priced at just under twice as much as the non Max in the same size container. In fact the 16 ounce non Max cost less than the 8 ounce Max. They had a couple brands of 5 minute epoxy too, including Devcon.
View attachment 140454
And of course they didn't have the T-formerly-MT either.

Just for laughs I went next door to WalMart, which I normally won't touch with a boat hook, but I needn't have bothered.

OK, so I have white glue, non Max filler, and 5 minute epoxy (in addition to the yellow glue, CA, and miscellaneous other adhesives, and the Max filler, I already had). I don't have T-formerly-MT or 30 minute epoxy. There are basically no Ace or True Value or independent mom & pop hardware stores on our side of town, just HD and Lowe's. There's an Ace fairly near where I work, though, and a True Value on one of the plausible routes to work, so I'm going to stop by those next week.

 

[scsager]

Seems like Elmer's has come out with a bunch of new glues in the past few years. I tried the "Carpenters Wood Glue Max" . I did not like it. It has some sort of grit or fiber suspended in it. Give me regular white glue, or Titebond wood glue. "Pulp" is OK in OJ, but not in glue.

 

[majordude]

The yellow wood glue grips faster than their white. But it is STRONG.

 

[dave carver]

Seems like Elmer's has come out with a bunch of new glues in the past few years. I tried the "Carpenters Wood Glue Max" . I did not like it. It has some sort of grit or fiber suspended in it. Give me regular white glue, or Titebond wood glue. "Pulp" is OK in OJ, but not in glue.

Heh, I used up my 4 oz bottle and now I'm working on an 8oz bottle, I like it. TiteBond made this glue they called "whipped". It was only out a short time. You could stick a fin on, hold it for just a few secnds and let go, the fin would stay put. Made great fillets. It was out for maybe a year then gone.

 

[Rich Holmes]

The yellow wood glue grips faster than their white. But it is STRONG.

Yeah, that's why I want to try using the white, or something other than the yellow anyway, for things like installing engine mounts or body tube couplers. A couple times I've tried doing that with yellow glue and found that as soon as I stopped pushing the component into place it'd freeze there and I would be unable to fine tune its position, because the yellow glue grabs it so hard.

But for gluing motor mounts together, or gluing fins, or other such things where you're not trying to slide a tight fitting component into another, I've been pretty happy with the yellow glue.

 

[majordude]

Honestly, the glue sold in hardware stores is to build houses, not models. They will get you by in a pinch but spend some time and money in a hobby shop or online. Hobby epoxy is more economical and stronger than Elmer's (and waterproof). And even cheap CA doesn't clog the nozzle as quickly as that generic Loctite CA does.

Buy some Zap epoxy and CA... or even Bob Smith (aka "hobbypoxy") and you will be happier than the toothpaste tube stuff.

 

[Rich Holmes]

Oh, I'll be trying those too. Whatever gives me the best bang for buck. Cheap stuff if it works, not so cheap stuff otherwise. I don't particularly care what the marketing department says it's for...

 

[troj]

Anywhere that sells school supplies is going to have the white glue you're looking for.

-Kevin

 

[WillMarchant]

Look for Elmer's in the office/school supplies section of your grocery store

 

[Rich Holmes]

As I said, I did find Elmer's Glue-All at Lowe's.

The stuff in the school supplies section... well, that maybe Elmer's Glue-All, or it may be Elmer's School Glue, which is different stuff.

 

[luke strawwalker]

Yeah, that's why I want to try using the white, or something other than the yellow anyway, for things like installing engine mounts or body tube couplers. A couple times I've tried doing that with yellow glue and found that as soon as I stopped pushing the component into place it'd freeze there and I would be unable to fine tune its position, because the yellow glue grabs it so hard.

But for gluing motor mounts together, or gluing fins, or other such things where you're not trying to slide a tight fitting component into another, I've been pretty happy with the yellow glue.

Different glues have different purposes:

White glue- best for paper/paper joints like tube couplers, motor mount centering rings inside the main body tube of the rocket, since it shrinks less and therefore won't "pull in" the body tube outer wall as the glue dries, unlike yellow glue. BUT it's less heat resistant, and therefore for joints in closer contact with heat sources, like the motor tube to centering ring joints, despite being paper/paper joints (in most cases, for LPR anyway) should use yellow glue, since it's more heat resistant and the shrinkage doesn't matter on the motor tube of the mount.

Yellow WOOD glue-- best for wood/wood joints or wood/paper joints, like fins to tubes. Yellow glue grabs faster, is thicker, and if used on joints like tube couplers or installing motor mounts inside the main rocket body tube, are prone to "grabbing" or "locking up" halfway through the process. In addition, yellow wood glue shrinks a LOT more during drying, and will "pull in" the body tube walls as it dries when used to glue motor mounts inside rocket body tubes, making the tube "pucker in" at the location of the centering rings. Best use is double-glue joints to attach fins-- apply a thin layer of glue to the fin root edge and the tube where the fin will go (along the fin line) and allow to dry, or nearly dry. Apply a second thin layer, then carefully align the fin to the body tube and press them together for about 20-30 seconds-- the glue will rapidly "lock up" and permanently join the two parts-- the speed of CA but the strength of wood glue-- in fact, stronger, because the tube will rip or the fin will break before the glue joint lets go...

Cyanoacrylate (CA)-- IMHO only useful for emergency field repairs and hardening balsa parts (nosecones and fins) during construction, and gluing up small detail parts. As a construction adhesive, it has a lot of drawbacks-- it gets brittle with time, and its weak in the shear plane (tends to pop fins off the tube when they hit the ground under parachute). IMHO the "instant" benefits it has aren't worth the drawbacks of using it, and be obtained with a MUCH stronger resulting joint using wood glue and a double-glue joint.

Thickened wood or white glues (Titebond Moulding and Trim Glue, Thickened Wood glue, Aileene's Tacky Glue)-- much the same as white/wood glues, BUT, the thickened formula works better for things like fillets, especially the "thicker the better" glues like the Titebond Moulding/Trim or Thickened Wood glue. Thicker formulas mean no drips, no sags, no runs, smooth with a damp fingertip, sandable but when properly formed with a damp finger (fillets) requires no sanding, little/no shrinkage, no pits, no bubbles, no voids-- one application and done, PLUS, unlike using yellow or white glue for fillets, you can do ALL the fillets at once and set the rocket aside to dry-- no propping the rocket up and doing two adjoining fin fillets and then hoping the glue doesn't run or drip during the drying time as the fillets cure. Unlike epoxy, no need for gloves due to skin sensitization concerns, no waste from mixing, no need for paper plates or mixing cups or sticks or taping off the fillets, no gloves or alcohol for smoothing the fillets, etc.

Epoxy-- Useful construction adhesive, ESPECIALLY for long tube couplers that can tend to be tight, and have a lot of surface area-- unlike white/wood glues which "cure" by the water solvent evaporating, epoxy cures at a given rate by a chemical reaction that forms polymers... the chemicals will remain liquid regardless of absorption or being spread extremely thinly during assembly by tight-fitting parts, which can RAPIDLY soak up the moisture in thin layers of white, and ESPECIALLY wood glue, causing the glue to 'lock up' the parts before they can be fully assembled. Can be used for any other joint, and especially useful for joining dissimilar materials (plastic and wood/paper) so long as it can grip the plastic (slippery plastic formulations can be troublesome unless the plastic is sanded roughly to give it "tooth" for the glue to grab). Overkill for most LPR applications, but certain of its properties can be quite useful during construction, as mentioned, and make it a handy tool to have. Measuring and mixing required, and limited pot life leads to a lot of waste, unlike other glues, and the chemical nature of it requires nitrile gloves to protect skin from exposure, and over time it can lead to sensitization even from the vapors of it. Best used IMHO in special situations where its special properties are needed, and rely on regular water-based adhesives (wood, white glue) for other applications where it's possible to use them.

Urethane glue (gorilla glue)-- specialty glue that's good for locking noseweight into nosecones, since it foams up and dries hard. Doesn't require evaporation of solvent (like water in white/wood glues, similar to epoxy in that it's a chemical reaction that cures it) and thus it works well in situations with poor ventilation, like inside nosecones. Foams as it cures, so as a construction adhesive, it's not very useful, since there's little/no control over it's shape or appearance after application. Cures by the absorption of moisture from the air, so adding a drop or two of water is all that's needed to help it cure and lock noseweight in place.

Model airplane glue-- of limited use for rockets, mainly detail parts and joining plastic parts and paper tubes.

Contact cement or rubber cement-- specialty adhesives useful for attaching detail parts, corrugated wraps, or construction of cardstock parts, but of limited use otherwise in rocket construction.

DAP, "Do-All" adhesives, Goop, etc-- similar to above, see above.

For LPR/MPR, most of the time I use white glue for paper/paper joints and wood glue for wood/paper joints, with the exception of centering rings to motor tubes, which are exposed to heat from the motor soaking through the casing and tube, which do better with yellow glue than white. CA is useful for hardening balsa, but little else IMHO. TMTG/thickened wood glue is very useful for fillets, much easier to use than epoxy IMHO, and plenty strong. Epoxy is good for long tube couplers that fit tight where white or wood glue might lock up prematurely. NEVER use wood glue for tube coupler installation. White glue is superior for gluing the motor mount in the body tube, since it won't "pucker" the tube wall in where the centering rings touch the tube as it dries.

Later and good luck! OL JR

 

[luke strawwalker]

As I said, I did find Elmer's Glue-All at Lowe's.

The stuff in the school supplies section... well, that maybe Elmer's Glue-All, or it may be Elmer's School Glue, which is different stuff.

Quite correct-- the "school glue" isn't very good... "Glue-All" is MUCH better IMHO...

I like Aileene's Tacky Glue as well... IMHO "school glue" is crap.

Nothing wrong with "carpenters glue" and no need to pay big prices for "hobby glue" simply because it's sold as "hobby glue"... most of the time it's the exact same stuff, or so close you can't really tell the difference anyway (CA is probably the exception here, but don't buy it except in small bottles-- it goes bad and you simply won't use that big bottle before it goes to pot...)

All in my experience and IMHO anyway...

Later! OL JR

 

[Rich Holmes]

I took a bike ride out to our local hobby shop.

The epoxy they have is their house branded stuff from Bob Smith, various cure times. I picked up the 30 minute.

View attachment 140564
As for hobby glue prices... this stuff is a lot cheaper per ounce, I mean like a factor of 4 or 5, than the Devcon from Lowe's.

Turns out we have some Aleene's Tacky Glue at home. I may try that for fillets.

 

[troj]

As for hobby glue prices... this stuff is a lot cheaper per ounce, I mean like a factor of 4 or 5, than the Devcon from Lowe's.

Yep, the Bob Smith stuff is definitely cheaper than what you'll find at a home improvement store.

If you find you're using much of that, it will save you money to order larger quantities of epoxy from another source. It all depends on how much you use, for whether or not it makes sense.

-Kevin

 

[AlexK]

Cyanoacrylate (CA)-- IMHO only useful for emergency field repairs and hardening balsa parts (nosecones and fins) during construction, and gluing up small detail parts. As a construction adhesive, it has a lot of drawbacks-- it gets brittle with time, and its weak in the shear plane (tends to pop fins off the tube when they hit the ground under parachute). IMHO the "instant" benefits it has aren't worth the drawbacks of using it, and be obtained with a MUCH stronger resulting joint using wood glue and a double-glue joint.

CA is also great for tacking something in place while the 'real' joining glue dries. This is nice for wood/white glue, but sometimes pretty vital for epoxy joints since the glue can take forever to start 'grabbing.'

 

[Getmore]

I love epoxy as much as I love refrigerator.:smile:

 

[Rich Holmes]

Definitely Elmer's Glue-All for the rocket I started tonight:
View attachment 140640

 

[Rich Holmes]

Hm, over in another thread hsmbanjo wrote:

...
The "New Stronger Formula" Elmer's glues are horrible for LPR rocket building.
Too many experienced builders have had couplers and engine mounts freeze up before being slid into position.
I ran out of the old formula and am now using School Glue for construction. It's closer to the old formula glue-all. ...

Dang. Another old standby improved all to hell.