Flight Controller Testing

[Aeva]

If you are looking at doing something this advanced, why do you need one of us to fly it for you? Building the rocket seems to be the easy part. You'll need an adult to handle the engine if you're looking at a higher power build, but that should be easy to arrange locally. So aside from the legal questions, this ask doesn't add up for me. I'd steer clear.

Second that, I wouldn't put an experimental avionics package in my rocket unless I was expecting to lose it or at least had a backup computer. Before I even used my flight computer for DD, I put it as a passive device on a 1in diamter rocket with a D motor. OP, you might be better off buying a bunch of the same kit, something cheap that can handle midpower motors like the Star Orbiter. It can be modified to have an electronic payload, and I think you might be able to mod it to do DD too. It can also be upgraded to handle HPR motors in theory (apogee sells plywood replacements for the balsa fins). That way you're not on the hook if someone loses an expensive rocket on your prototypes. Once you have a minimal viable product that you're confident in, and can demonstrate working, then maybe pull in some people to test on their rockets if they're comfortable with it.

 

[Capt. Eric]

Apogee also sells their RC guided parachute system, which would be an easier (although not easy) alternative.
https://www.apogeerockets.com/Build...ding-Parachutes/24in-Gliding-Parachute-System

 

[mohit.varikuti]

Good luck on your project. It sounds ambitious which is good. You will learn alot. My advice is ignore the legal naysayers. Your biggest challenge (which will be steep) is getting it to work. Only then will you have to research the former. Nice problem to have. Go for it!

If you are successful I fully expect for you to go to MIT or CalTech.

oh i already have all of these working individually lol, i just wanted to pique interested if people wanted to buy it commercially.

i have done robotics for multiple years before rocketry as well as high level math, and i have done quite a few college courses so it was a matter of fine tuning and implementation

however, I have never build a custom pcb like this before, I usually just protoboard or gpio wire it directly

i was attempting to rebuild the signal style flight control bps space has put out, as that would be near perfect for intro level teams who want a cheap and easy way to get into aerospace

 

[mohit.varikuti]

Within that price range, it isn't happening. Just the Teensy microcontroller is $20-ish, and so are the breakout boards for the IMU, etc. I would aim for about $100 for a prototype, then make it smaller from there.

You would be surprised lol, also im using a esp32 chipset and buying in bulk

 

[mohit.varikuti]

If you are looking at doing something this advanced, why do you need one of us to fly it for you? Building the rocket seems to be the easy part. You'll need an adult to handle the engine if you're looking at a higher power build, but that should be easy to arrange locally. So aside from the legal questions, this ask doesn't add up for me. I'd steer clear.

As part of the competition im building this for, it wuld be nice to get other people (than myself) to attest to the device as well as field test it for as many cases as possible

 

[mohit.varikuti]

Second that, I wouldn't put an experimental avionics package in my rocket unless I was expecting to lose it or at least had a backup computer. Before I even used my flight computer for DD, I put it as a passive device on a 1in diamter rocket with a D motor. OP, you might be better off buying a bunch of the same kit, something cheap that can handle midpower motors like the Star Orbiter. It can be modified to have an electronic payload, and I think you might be able to mod it to do DD too. It can also be upgraded to handle HPR motors in theory (apogee sells plywood replacements for the balsa fins). That way you're not on the hook if someone loses an expensive rocket on your prototypes. Once you have a minimal viable product that you're confident in, and can demonstrate working, then maybe pull in some people to test on their rockets if they're comfortable with it.

Yup! i have a bunch of estes rockets to test it on, and they will go through extremely thorough testing before even considering being shipped off to people. I have also used this type of build and sensor set on rockets already, i was just going to put my stack into a cheap and affordable package

 

[Handeman]

The only "fly in the ointment" for this is the FAA 400 ft. max altitude for RC or self controlled flight. Not sure about Apogee and their system. It is "experimental" so I guess they are leaving any and all legal liability up to the user. I'm also not sure of the legality of recovery systems and if they fall under the 400 ft. limit.

I know most would figure nobody would really care and the chance of being busted would be very small, but the one time we had low cloud cover, didn't activate our COA, and started flying Class 1 rockets only, our COA holder got a call wanting to know why we were flying rockets without calling in the COA. They were fine with everything when we explained the situation and we were flying Class 1 only, but they knew we were flying LPR Estes type rockets that day. Since they knew we were flying, I would assume they also knew what altitudes we were flying to, and could probably differentiate if the rockets were just drifting on the wind during recovery vs. a controlled flight over 400 ft.

Like driving 10 mph over the limit, you take your chances.

 

[cerving]

If you're actually planning to start a business doing this, I wish you luck. It's a lot harder than it sounds. A lot of people give it a try, spend a few years and realize that they're really not making any money to speak of, and hang it up. You gotta do it because you really like doing it... you will not make a living off of it, if you make enough to pay for the hobby you're doing pretty good.

 

[thzero]

I'm skeptical for many reasons.

 

[mohit.varikuti]

If you're actually planning to start a business doing this, I wish you luck. It's a lot harder than it sounds. A lot of people give it a try, spend a few years and realize that they're really not making any money to speak of, and hang it up. You gotta do it because you really like doing it... you will not make a living off of it, if you make enough to pay for the hobby you're doing pretty good.

I have no intention to actually make money off of this, this is a more for fun project, I am fully aware that I may end up spending 100's of dollars with no avail

 

[Handeman]

I have no intention to actually make money off of this, this is a more for fun project, I am fully aware that I may end up spending 100's of dollars with no avail

Actually it will probably be $1000s, but that is also something you might want to determine before you start. Like walking into a casino, know your limit.

 

[mohit.varikuti]

Actually it will probably be $1000s, but that is also something you might want to determine before you start. Like walking into a casino, know your limit.

well i guess this is why they dont let minors into casinos huh

anyways, I also have external funding if needed so money in itself shouldnt be a issue whatsoever

 

[Desmos]

Hi Guys! Im developing a new flight controller system for a entrepreneurship project at my school and would like some data for a project. Its a all in one fc package that includes the following:

* 9DOF IMU
* 300hz Barometer
* GPS
* 2 TVC outputs
* Wireless app to configure PID
* Fuse ignition system
* Automatic Parachute Deployment
* Directional Targeting System (for landing in a certain zone only)

And the best part for you? Its completely free in this phase of testing im doing this as i want data for my project and i want it tested on a variety of rockets, im willing to cover all costs and ship it out you! (US only for now)

What i need from you:

* A picture of the FC connected and wired in your rocket
* Your rocket
* A video stating your name, where you are located, and if you liked my product or not (feel free to say it was garbage if you want but i would like honest opinions)

If you are interested, please fill out this form:

https://forms.gle/zamaA48MRMWsGa3m6

Thank You!

DISCLAIMER: Not my fault if u decide to use this for bad

I’d be wary with regulations, cause it gets a tad bit hairy when it comes to making sure it lands in a specific region. Otherwise, I’d love to help out and offer input on your project. In the past I’ve done slightly similar systems for TARC, and I’d love to see your thought process for adapting it for multiple axes of control

 

[cerving]

well i guess this is why they dont let minors into casinos huh

anyways, I also have external funding if needed so money in itself shouldnt be a issue whatsoever

So did I in High School... parents.

Shark Tank would have been less painful, though.

 

[kramer714]

Here is what i am missing, (this is really common with school projects), I never heard you talk about a test plan. Built and fly to test is a really bad plan from a cost and schedule standpoint. If i was doing this, I would create a test plan, You can build a simple test chamber from a ball jar, and use a simple PVC 'syringe pump', to draw the vacuum. Simple pressure gauge or even less expensive a dumb manometer. couple of pin holes in a piece of tinfoil as a 'descent leak' , pretty easy. You can use an existing eggfinder (putting a plug in for Cris) as you calibration.

Accuracy

• Do a bunch of simulated launches, fast, slow etc, does the product ACCURATELY do what you think it should? Correct altitude detects apogee etc.
• Do a few different serial numbers (unique hardware) do they repeat?
• Do the test in a car parked in the sun (heat test) same effect? same altitude?
• Does the unit fire a real ematch EVERY time, different resistances of e matches?
• What are the limits of battery voltage, amperage. Does it work after being soaked in a freezer? How low can you go - Voltage Amperage, um how high before you dont need an igniter any more (think about it).
  • run the test with the LOWEST possible voltage / current (old 9 volt)
  • run the test with the HIGHEST possible voltage current (50C 3S lipo)
  • run the test with the HIGHEST possible voltage current (50C 3S lipo) and a high current igniter

Drop test

• Mount the equipment how it would be mounted in a rocket, use REAL e-matches (not LED) WITHOUT charges
  • arm it and drop it from 3 feet onto concrete- a few times - different orientations, does it still work? Did the charges go off?
  • arm it and throw it 15 feet in the air let it drop onto grass or sand, does it still work? Did the charges go off?
  • Arm it and WEARING WELDING GLOVES AND EYE PROTECTION, shake the heck out of it, on a windy day, does it still work? Did the charges go off?

Mike (reality in engineeringtakes the fun away) K

 

[kramer714]

Best recommendation yet, if you want a product, that isnt available currently, that is needed, and people would be willing to try and maybe pay for....

• The Test-o-matic( I so want to link to the bass-o-matic SNL sketch but makes me feel really old) it...
  • Is a useful electronic altimeter tester
  • consist of;
    • a 6" x 2 foot PVC accumulator (home depot pipe with caps) that you connect to a shop vac for low altitude or vacuum pump for high altitude testing
    • a 6" x 1 foot test chamber (home depot pipe with caps)
      • D-Lux model uses a 1 gallon glass pickle jar Molded cap with oring seal
    • pipe cap with seal (homedepot) with a pass through for (4) pairs of leads
    • A manifold that connects the accumulator to the 'test chamber'
    • Computer controlled valves
      • for ascent (test chamber 'leaks' to the accumulator)
      • for descent (test chamber 'leaks' to atmosphere
    • built in calibration barometer and themocouple
  • Operation
    • Connect the leads of your altimter to the teminals on the INSIDE of the lid
    • Program a flight profile (rock sim output?)
    • Fire up the shopvac or vaccum pump
    • once the accumulator is down to a 'workable level, computer tells the test pilot that they are ready, hit the 'launch button'
    • valve meters a controled leak from the test chamber to the accumulator simulating the pressure change per the requested profile
    • once at apogee
      • Light or buzzer goes off, should see the ematch (or LED substitute for the ematch) go off
      • closes accumulator valve and opens descent valve, letting the pressure increase (descent) per the flight profile
      • Second light or buzzer goes off at prescribed altitudes, seeing if main e-match goes off
    • once done gives a plot of the chamber alitutde vs time that can be compared to the data from the altimeter.

Mike (My mother knew Ron Popeil in high school) K

 

[Spacedog49Krell]

Hi Guys! Im developing a new flight controller system for a entrepreneurship project at my school and would like some data for a project. Its a all in one fc package that includes the following:

* 9DOF IMU
* 300hz Barometer
* GPS
* 2 TVC outputs
* Wireless app to configure PID
* Fuse ignition system
* Automatic Parachute Deployment
* Directional Targeting System (for landing in a certain zone only)

Good luck on your entrepreneurship project, but you need to evaluate each of your required components and their specific functionality in the flight control system.

What are you doing with the 9DoF IMU data? There is no mention of Euler angles or quaternion coordinate requirements. Critical data for TVC, vehicle orientation, Kalman algorithm, and return to landing zone. Do you absolutely need 9DoF or would 6DoF, at a lower cost, work? Is the IMU data recorded to memory? How often is this data updated?

Why 300Hz barometric data? Dealing with 3.333 millisecond or 3,333 microsecond interrupts adds to complexity, cost, and development time. I found that 50Hz -100Hz altimeter data to be sufficient, even for bragging rights.

Is TVC a future requirement for model or High Power flight controllers? I'm receiving more requests for help with vertical flight control, roll control, and altitude air braking systems for Space Cup and ARC competition. Even Joe Barnard has abandoned TVC for high altitude vertical flight and roll control of his rockets.

 

[kramer714]

BTW shop vac can get you about 3,000 feet equiv altitude without too much trouble (home depo $50 shop vac)

 

[cerving]

I have a Tupperware box with a vacuum cleaner connector for LPR tests, I get about 2500' out of it with the Eureka vac. For HPR testing, I have a vacuum pump with a Ball jar... good for about 55K.

 

[mohit.varikuti]

Good luck on your entrepreneurship project, but you need to evaluate each of your required components and their specific functionality in the flight control system.

What are you doing with the 9DoF IMU data? There is no mention of Euler angles or quaternion coordinate requirements. Critical data for TVC, vehicle orientation, Kalman algorithm, and return to landing zone. Do you absolutely need 9DoF or would 6DoF, at a lower cost, work? Is the IMU data recorded to memory? How often is this data updated?

Why 300Hz barometric data? Dealing with 3.333 millisecond or 3,333 microsecond interrupts adds to complexity, cost, and development time. I found that 50Hz -100Hz altimeter data to be sufficient, even for bragging rights.

Is TVC a future requirement for model or High Power flight controllers? I'm receiving more requests for help with vertical flight control, roll control, and altitude air braking systems for Space Cup and ARC competition. Even Joe Barnard has abandoned TVC for high altitude vertical flight and roll control of his rockets.

Hmm well I have a modified idea now,

get rid of the targeting stuff and reduce the quality of sensors because as I agree, the 9dof 300hz may be overkill lol

What if I made a kind of module system for rocketry, where i can sell things like a tvc, a flight controller, a nosecone parachute system, vectored fins, etc, and people can take them and essentially just slap them into their rockets

i intent to make each of these like separate modules, and make them completely able to use with common systems like arduino and esp, if they dont want to buy my fc.

Or if they do buy my full system, it would be plug and play, where u plug in a battery and each sub system into the corresponding ports on the (abstracted) fc, and it would be as easy as legos to use.

I feel this would be benificial for new teams in rocketry who want to learn or dont want to have to learn alot of ee or prog in order to get started (which is a major hurdle for alot of teams)

 

[Spacedog49Krell]

Hmm well I have a modified idea now,

get rid of the targeting stuff and reduce the quality of sensors because as I agree, the 9dof 300hz may be overkill lol

What if I made a kind of module system for rocketry, where i can sell things like a tvc, a flight controller, a nosecone parachute system, vectored fins, etc, and people can take them and essentially just slap them into their rockets

i intent to make each of these like separate modules, and make them completely able to use with common systems like arduino and esp, if they dont want to buy my fc.

Or if they do buy my full system, it would be plug and play, where u plug in a battery and each sub system into the corresponding ports on the (abstracted) fc, and it would be as easy as legos to use.

I feel this would be benificial for new teams in rocketry who want to learn or dont want to have to learn alot of ee or prog in order to get started (which is a major hurdle for alot of teams)

Creativity is the focus for the mechanical engineering, electronic engineering, and programming in these team competitions. Offering a plug and play system is great for learning a basic approach to a problem, but it lacks creativity.

Before Arduinos there were Basic Stamps. The guru of Basic Stamps was Scott Edwards. He offered learning module kits for Stamp users. Even today, he still sells LCD displays for Arduinos. My first flyable flight computer was a Basic Stamp 1 using Scott's modules. It recorded acceleration and altitude at 36Hz to EEPROM. Moving to the Stamp 2 the speed increased to 126Hz and in 2000 that was fast. Today, 7-10 channels of data at 500Hz with 3-6 channels at slower rates is the new high speed standard, look at the Featherweight Blue Raven. There are a few of us DIYers doing 10-15 channels at 1000Hz.

Know your market, your customers, and the competition before you start.

 

[kramer714]

https://www.instructables.com/Model-Rocket-Flight-Computer-With-Arduino/

 

[jderimig]

Know your market, your customers, and the competition before you start.

Better yet, understand what market needs are not being met. Entrepreneurship is not inventing a product you think is cool, but inventing a solution to a need that isn't very well met currently.

Edit: On your post #1, what is the need that solution provides that is not currently met by current products?