Firearms Safety In The Entertainment Industry

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bjphoenix said:
I thought Ruger was the only company making a single action revolver using a transfer bar action. I'm familiar with Uberti clones but not Pietta so I had to look. Even on their website they say "Great Western II single action revolvers are manufactured by FAP F.LLI Pietta. Our Great Western II (GWII) line is period correct with the floating firing pin in the hammer, not a transfer bar".
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I stand corrected. I somegow got the impression that it was a transfer bar gun. I own a 'Hawes Sauer' single action in 44 mag that is a transfer bar gun. Very well made, they are now discontinued ( I think). Rugers became transfer bar guns in the early 70's. They are denoted by the 'New Model' designation.

Jim
 
CalebJ said:
The way I understand it, it was never even lost. Just a miscommunication.
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I read it as "never lost but damaged" which the defense put out (in a bit of hyperbole) as "destroyed". Destroyed for evidence purposes possibly, but not physically destroyed in the way the rest of us think about it.
 
The gun can’t fire unless the trigger is pulled. Or maybe it can.

It’s a transfer bar design. Or maybe it’s not.

The gun is missing. Actually it isn’t.

Baldwin is charged with manslaughter. Not anymore.

I predict by the end of the week we find out the victim is not really dead.
 
ThirstyBarbarian said:
The gun can’t fire unless the trigger is pulled. Or maybe it can.

It’s a transfer bar design. Or maybe it’s not.

The gun is missing. Actually it isn’t.

Baldwin is charged with manslaughter. Not anymore.

I predict by the end of the week we find out the victim is not really dead.
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My bad on the transfer bar gun. Sadly, the victims will remain shot and in the case of Ms. Hutchins, she will stay deceased. These cases tend to be rumor mills and I should have checked facts more thoroughly before posting. I apologize.

Jim
 
Jim Hinton said:
My bad on the transfer bar gun. Sadly, the victims will remain shot and in the case of Ms. Hutchins, she will stay deceased. These cases tend to be rumor mills and I should have checked facts more thoroughly before posting. I apologize.

Jim
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Good on you for admitting a mistake. That’s rare these days. This case does have a lot of rumors, misinformation, and personal agendas attached to it.
 
Jim Hinton said:
I stand corrected. I somegow got the impression that it was a transfer bar gun. I own a 'Hawes Sauer' single action in 44 mag that is a transfer bar gun. Very well made, they are now discontinued ( I think). Rugers became transfer bar guns in the early 70's. They are denoted by the 'New Model' designation.

Jim
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I'm in favor of the ability to carry it safely with all six chambers loaded, FWIW.
 
ThirstyBarbarian said:
Good on you for admitting a mistake. That’s rare these days. This case does have a lot of rumors, misinformation, and personal agendas attached to it.
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I went on the company website and discovered that Pietta has indeed produced a transfer bar gun, but thr Great Western 2 is more of a true Colt SAA clone, complete with all of those safety issues. My identification of the firearm is also based on second hand information, so take it all with a grain of salt. I could be even more full of crap than usual.

Jim
 
Jim Hinton said:
I went on the company website and discovered that Pietta has indeed produced a transfer bar gun, but thr Great Western 2 is more of a true Colt SAA clone, complete with all of those safety issues. My identification of the firearm is also based on second hand information, so take it all with a grain of salt. I could be even more full of crap than usual.
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I don't pay that much attention to the Italian replicas and thus found it amazing that any Italian company had actually created a replica with transfer bar or similar safety. I do know that at least one of the companies made a SAA clone with a longer than normal base pin with the ability to push the base pin farther into the frame such that the end would project out the back enough to block the hammer from falling completely.

Back to some of the other content in the thread- since the original Colt SAA the hammer has had multiple notches that could theoretically catch the hammer if it was released accidentally, but I've always read that these notches are fragile and not to be relied on. There is a comment that the prop gun was modified, maybe this was done intentionally so that actors wouldn't further damage the hammer, or maybe it wasn't modified but instead was broken by incorrect handling. Without the safety notches working a SAA design could certainl fire without pulling the trigger. Further I don't know how the other Italian models implemented a transfer bar but there are safety mechanisms that have a somewhat similar operation but do not have a transfer bar. A transfer bar is named appropriately- it transfers the hammer impact to the firing pin. Smith and Wesson revolvers have a trigger-actuated bar that does the opposite- in one position it blocks the hammer from falling completely so if the trigger is pulled completely the bar is pulled out of the way of the hammer fall. The bar prevents the gun from firing accidentally but it does not transfer anything to the firing pin.
 
Ok, I'll be the one that says it.
The first special prosecutor removed herself from the case after getting how many$$$???
The FBI now claims that the newly found gun, not missing anymore, has been modified to fire by itself. I'm surprised Baldwin has not claimed "I wasn't even holding the gun when it fired".
Now this young girl takes the full brunt of the case after it being decided that the person, with the gun in his hand, has no blame. That goes against absolutely everything we are taught about gun safety. I took gun safety when I was 11 years old. You never point a gun at anything you do NOT want to kill. You treat a gun as it is ALWAYS loaded, with live ammo. Now, the door is open for actors, to kill people with no recourse.
Just goes to show you what money can do.
My little town of New Market, MN, a young boy, 15, was killed by a drunk driver while riding his bike. Drunk left the scene, was caught later. He owned a lot of the land this town was built on, his family very prominent in this county, owns many business and liquor stores. He was sentenced a couple weeks ago. He got 30 days in jail.
Few years back, Amy Sensor, wife of MN Viking Joe Sensor, did the same thing. Hit and killed someone and left the scene. If I remember correctly, she got 15 months, served 11 of it.
Just goes to show you what money can do.
Ok, I'm ready, let the attacks begin. As long as you do NOT attack me with a revolver that has been modified to fire by itself.
 
David Schwantz said:
Ok, I'll be the one that says it.
The first special prosecutor removed herself from the case after getting how many$$$???
The FBI now claims that the newly found gun, not missing anymore, has been modified to fire by itself. I'm surprised Baldwin has not claimed "I wasn't even holding the gun when it fired".
Now this young girl takes the full brunt of the case after it being decided that the person, with the gun in his hand, has no blame. That goes against absolutely everything we are taught about gun safety. I took gun safety when I was 11 years old. You never point a gun at anything you do NOT want to kill. You treat a gun as it is ALWAYS loaded, with live ammo. Now, the door is open for actors, to kill people with no recourse.
Just goes to show you what money can do.
My little town of New Market, MN, a young boy, 15, was killed by a drunk driver while riding his bike. Drunk left the scene, was caught later. He owned a lot of the land this town was built on, his family very prominent in this county, owns many business and liquor stores. He was sentenced a couple weeks ago. He got 30 days in jail.
Few years back, Amy Sensor, wife of MN Viking Joe Sensor, did the same thing. Hit and killed someone and left the scene. If I remember correctly, she got 15 months, served 11 of it.
Just goes to show you what money can do.
Ok, I'm ready, let the attacks begin. As long as you do NOT attack me with a revolver that has been modified to fire by itself.
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In 2021 the FBI could not get the gun to fire without pulling the trigger. The attorney at the time said the gun was 'broke' and the FBI could not get it to fire at all.
Now the mystery modification appears. Reminds me slightly of the magic bullet in 1963. Now its the magic modification.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/14/entertainment/rust-shooting-gun-trigger/index.html
 
David Schwantz said:
Ok, I'll be the one that says it.
The first special prosecutor removed herself from the case after getting how many$$$???
The FBI now claims that the newly found gun, not missing anymore, has been modified to fire by itself. I'm surprised Baldwin has not claimed "I wasn't even holding the gun when it fired".
Now this young girl takes the full brunt of the case after it being decided that the person, with the gun in his hand, has no blame. That goes against absolutely everything we are taught about gun safety. I took gun safety when I was 11 years old. You never point a gun at anything you do NOT want to kill. You treat a gun as it is ALWAYS loaded, with live ammo. Now, the door is open for actors, to kill people with no recourse.
Just goes to show you what money can do.
My little town of New Market, MN, a young boy, 15, was killed by a drunk driver while riding his bike. Drunk left the scene, was caught later. He owned a lot of the land this town was built on, his family very prominent in this county, owns many business and liquor stores. He was sentenced a couple weeks ago. He got 30 days in jail.
Few years back, Amy Sensor, wife of MN Viking Joe Sensor, did the same thing. Hit and killed someone and left the scene. If I remember correctly, she got 15 months, served 11 of it.
Just goes to show you what money can do.
Ok, I'm ready, let the attacks begin. As long as you do NOT attack me with a revolver that has been modified to fire by itself.
Click to expand...

You aren’t going to get any pushback from me on the idea that rich people get away with crimes that the rest of us wouldn’t. That definitely happens. Usually it has more to do with great lawyers than outright corruption, but not always. I don’t know if that’s a factor in this case or not.

What I will push back on is the part about gun safety. Yes, the handling of the gun went against everything you learned about gun safety. You were taught never to point a gun at anything you don’t intend to kill and always treat a gun as if it is loaded. That’s what I was taught too. Everyone was taught that. But I think we’ve already gone ‘round and ‘round on this about half a million times that in order to make movies involving guns, some of the rules about safe gun handling are replaced by a different set of safety rules on a movie set. And it’s the responsibility of the armorer to make sure that the guns and ammunition on set are managed in such a way that it’s safe to violate the rules you were taught. If the armorer says it’s safe to treat a gun as if it is not loaded or point the gun at a person, then they’ve taken the responsibility to guarantee it is safe for you to violate the normal safety rule. That’s why the armorer is still on the hook. She didn’t do her job to ensure the gun was unloaded and could be safely handled as if unloaded.
 
In today's society, there are no victims. There are "results". It's the result that matters. I'm sure given all the activity, misinformation and legal wrangling going on, the cheapest result for NM was to drop the case.

The "Rust" crew is already back on set finishing the film. Ironically, not in New Mexico. Couldn't do that without Alexander Rae Baldwin, III.
 
David Schwantz said:
Now this young girl takes the full brunt of the case after it being decided that the person, with the gun in his hand, has no blame. That goes against absolutely everything we are taught about gun safety. I took gun safety when I was 11 years old. You never point a gun at anything you do NOT want to kill. You treat a gun as it is ALWAYS loaded, with live ammo. Now, the door is open for actors, to kill people with no recourse.

Actually the Assistant Director also took the blame and pleaded Guilty as he handed the actor a loaded gun and stated it was safe, you missed that. On a Movie with an Armorer, the Armorer takes the blame. Everybody who works in Film knows this, especially the Armorer. There are 2 people at fault, one pled guilty and the other still has charges pending. The young girl broke the 3 most basic rules of guns on a film set, she's lucky to only face Manslaughter charges.
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bjphoenix said:
I don't pay that much attention to the Italian replicas and thus found it amazing that any Italian company had actually created a replica with transfer bar or similar safety. I do know that at least one of the companies made a SAA clone with a longer than normal base pin with the ability to push the base pin farther into the frame such that the end would project out the back enough to block the hammer from falling completely.

Back to some of the other content in the thread- since the original Colt SAA the hammer has had multiple notches that could theoretically catch the hammer if it was released accidentally, but I've always read that these notches are fragile and not to be relied on. There is a comment that the prop gun was modified, maybe this was done intentionally so that actors wouldn't further damage the hammer, or maybe it wasn't modified but instead was broken by incorrect handling. Without the safety notches working a SAA design could certainl fire without pulling the trigger. Further I don't know how the other Italian models implemented a transfer bar but there are safety mechanisms that have a somewhat similar operation but do not have a transfer bar. A transfer bar is named appropriately- it transfers the hammer impact to the firing pin. Smith and Wesson revolvers have a trigger-actuated bar that does the opposite- in one position it blocks the hammer from falling completely so if the trigger is pulled completely the bar is pulled out of the way of the hammer fall. The bar prevents the gun from firing accidentally but it does not transfer anything to the firing pin.
Click to expand...
Uberti is the big Italian manufacturer of clone firearms, they make the SAA clones with the base pin that can act to block the hammer fall. I shoot Cowboy Action, it's not unusual for a shooter to be on the timer and all you hear is click, click, click, (muttered obscenities), click, click. Those sneaky safeties they install on current production copies can definitely cause issues. On the other hand, such a device could have worked out great on a certain movie set. I own two AWA Ubertis that are so equipped. The base pin tends to stay put as long as it isn't consciously engaged. Definitely a firearm for keeping an empty under the hammer though.

Jim
 
I think he will be acquitted. NM variants of involuntary manslaughter may be different but from my reading of the definition I am not sure he is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

Text below from Justia.

The first type of involuntary manslaughter occurs when a defendant recklessly or negligently commits an act that results in the death of another person. Recklessness usually means that the defendant was aware of the risk that they were creating, while negligence usually means that the defendant was not aware of the risk but reasonably should have been aware of it. The level of negligence required for involuntary manslaughter is higher than normal civil negligence and requires that the defendant have acted in a very unreasonable manner.
 
jderimig said:
I think he will be acquitted. NM variants of involuntary manslaughter may be different but from my reading of the definition I am not sure he is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

Text below from Justia.

The first type of involuntary manslaughter occurs when a defendant recklessly or negligently commits an act that results in the death of another person. Recklessness usually means that the defendant was aware of the risk that they were creating, while negligence usually means that the defendant was not aware of the risk but reasonably should have been aware of it. The level of negligence required for involuntary manslaughter is higher than normal civil negligence and requires that the defendant have acted in a very unreasonable manner.
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Yes but he was more than an actor - he was also the producer, which gives him ultimate responsibility for what goes on in the production of the movie. That raises the bar higher IMHO. But yeah. He's Alec Baldwin. :confused:
 
Blast it Tom! said:
Yes but he was more than an actor - he was also the producer, which gives him ultimate responsibility for what goes on in the production of the movie. That raises the bar higher IMHO. But yeah. He's Alec Baldwin. :confused:
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I am not saying he's innocent. His civil accountability is without question. I am just not sure its criminal. (Boeing's CEO was not held criminally responsible for the deaths due to 737MAX crashes).

The state would either have to prove recklessness (he was aware of the risk) or that he acted in a VERY unreasonable manner according to the definition above if applies. I think there might be reasonable doubt there. Not a good look for the state.

The fact that the prosecutor went back and forth on this shows that even the prosecutor at some point had reasonable doubt. I think a trial will end in acquittal (or hung jury) if it goes to trial or as @boatgeek predicted it will be pleaded down to something benign.
 
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