Epoxy sensitive

[cecil]

If you know you're sensitive to isocyanate epoxies, is there any alternative to such products or are PAPR's or systems that use out-of-shop air the only options?

cecil

 

[fyrwrxz]

If you know you're sensitive to isocyanate epoxies, is there any alternative to such products or are PAPR's or systems that use out-of-shop air the only options?

cecil

Cecil- checkout this relatively new formulae for Rocketpoxy here: https://www.glenmarc.com/adhesives.htm under G5000
Granted I do not know your use, but this is a relatively benign adhesive for constructing our birds.
Similar is Proline 5000-also a good high temp resistant 2 part epoxy. I believe both are available from Wildman Rocketry in less than industrial sizes.

 

[cecil]

Cecil- checkout this relatively new formulae for Rocketpoxy here: https://www.glenmarc.com/adhesives.htm
Granted I do not know your use, but this is a relatively benign adhesive for constructing our birds.
Similar is Proline 5000-also a good high temp resistant 2 part epoxy. I believe both are available from Wildman Rocketry in less than industrial sizes.

Thanks Dave,

I'll discuss these with the manufacturers. It would be good to know whether anyone else who is sensitive to isocyanate epoxies has used these products without problems. My use is to create the strong bonding between elements that make up the big birds of high power rockets.

Thanks,

cecil

 

[JohnCoker]

I have not yet become sensitized, but I have started using a PAPR respirator when using epoxy (as well as other toxic chemicals).

If "Rocketpoxy" is less toxic than other types, that would be a good selling point, but I suspect they're all about the same. Note that the toxic chemicals are not in the epoxy itself, but in the hardener. So when you look at the MSDS, make sure to look at it for both parts.

 

[grouch]

I am extremely careful about epoxy contact but I guess I need to be more conscious with what I am breathing. Since I prefer paper kits, If I ever do develop sensitivities I will just switch to wood glue. In fact, that switch may happen out of shear practicality pretty soon anyway.

 

[cecil]

I have not yet become sensitized, but I have started using a PAPR respirator when using epoxy (as well as other toxic chemicals).

If "Rocketpoxy" is less toxic than other types, that would be a good selling point, but I suspect they're all about the same. Note that the toxic chemicals are not in the epoxy itself, but in the hardener. So when you look at the MSDS, make sure to look at it for both parts.

I saw your 3M PAPR on your safety video. What filter(s) do you use and are they isocyanate specific?

Also, I ran across Fixit Epoxie Clay, read its MSDS, and talked to the manufacturer. I was assured the product has no isocyanates at all. But, there is the question of strength which a user would have to comment on.

BTW, I have found your videos to be the best on YouTube (apropos high-powered rocketry) for thoroughness and professionalism.

 

[cecil]

I am extremely careful about epoxy contact but I guess I need to be more conscious with what I am breathing. Since I prefer paper kits, If I ever do develop sensitivities I will just switch to wood glue. In fact, that switch may happen out of shear practicality pretty soon anyway.

Isocyanates can really damage any moist membrane; asthma attacks after sensitization will stop following cessation of use of the epoxy, but the lung damage is irreversible (no way to remove polymer depositions from the lungs).

 

[troj]

What size/types of rockets are you looking to build? There are lots of things that can be done without the use of any epoxy.

-Kevin

 

[markkoelsch]

I would use a filter rated for organic vapors. When not in use store the cannisters in a sealed plastic bag to help their life span.

I looked into this at one time, and that is what you should use.


Mark Koelsch
Sent from my iPhone using Rocketry Forum

 

[cecil]

What size/types of rockets are you looking to build? There are lots of things that can be done without the use of any epoxy.

-Kevin

Kevin,

This should give you a pretty good idea: [video=youtube;c8dovKYULEQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8dovKYULEQ[/video]

Can't imagine anything like this on wood glue. If the rocket were all aluminum and a lot more expensive, then perhaps. I'm really looking forward to your suggestions.

cecil

 

[Rocketjunkie]

Isocyanates are used to cure HTPB, not epoxy. Most epoxy hardeners are amines.

 

[cecil]

I would use a filter rated for organic vapors. When not in use store the cannisters in a sealed plastic bag to help their life span.

I looked into this at one time, and that is what you should use.


Mark Koelsch
Sent from my iPhone using Rocketry Forum

Mark,

Maybe not:

One more quick note on filtering options – Positive Air Pressure Respirator (PAPR) systems such as the 3M GVP-PSK Paint Spray System are a step up from regular respirators. These are highly mobile and push air up to the mask with a small fan instead of the wearer having to pull the air through the respirator cartridges. It makes it easier to breathe, and there is no fear of having the fumes or particles sucked into the mask as you work. Like the 6001 Organic Vapors cartridges, this system will handle most solvent-based paints, but it isn’t going to work with paints containing isocyanates, at least not in a measurable, long-term way. https://blog.pksafety.com/which-filters-are-best-for-automotive-work-and-spray-painting/

cecil

 

[markkoelsch]

You did not mention paints in your original post. For that I have no idea as I have not done the research, but for the epoxies commonly used in the hobby I stand by the organic vapor rated cartridge. The positive pressure systems are nice, but for most are probably expensive and possibly more than they need.


Sent from my iPad using Rocketry Forum

 

[JohnCoker]

The positive pressure systems are nice, but for most are probably expensive and possibly more than they need.

It depends what you mean by "need". A PAPR is comfortable and doesn't impair visibility, which means I can quickly put it on and it's not annoying to wear. If the system isn't convenient and comfortable enough for you to be willing to put it on, even for "quick things," then it's nearly useless.

 

[Area66]

Here another solution; I build a fume hood that cost me way less than a $ 1300 PAPR , organic vapors cartridge have a short life, you need to change them often, beside they can desorb when not in use releasing the chemical in the room.

 

[cecil]

Isocyanates are used to cure HTPB, not epoxy. Most epoxy hardeners are amines.

Good to know. Thanks

 

[cecil]

Here another solution; I build a fume hood that cost me way less than a $ 1300 PAPR , organic vapors cartridge have a short life, you need to change them often, beside they can desorb when not in use releasing the chemical in the room.

I've been thinking of that as well. What kind of fan did you choose for your hood? Is it "explosion proof," a question I ask because I mix my own propellants.

 

[cecil]

Mark,

Maybe not:

One more quick note on filtering options – Positive Air Pressure Respirator (PAPR) systems such as the 3M GVP-PSK Paint Spray System are a step up from regular respirators. These are highly mobile and push air up to the mask with a small fan instead of the wearer having to pull the air through the respirator cartridges. It makes it easier to breathe, and there is no fear of having the fumes or particles sucked into the mask as you work. Like the 6001 Organic Vapors cartridges, this system will handle most solvent-based paints, but it isn’t going to work with paints containing isocyanates, at least not in a measurable, long-term way. https://blog.pksafety.com/which-filters-are-best-for-automotive-work-and-spray-painting/

cecil

The allergic reaction is the same whether the isocyanates are in paints or epoxies.

 

[Area66]

I've been thinking of that as well. What kind of fan did you choose for your hood? Is it "explosion proof," a question I ask because I mix my own propellants.

I will take pics later, I have 2, the small one is 2x3x4 feet and explosion proof, the larger not and it's still under construction.

 

[fyrwrxz]

Cecil- I was going to suggest a flow bench. Mine was pretty jury rigged out of 12 coreless DC muffin fans mounted on the back of a salvaged ESD stainless steel work bench. These have a shelf about 4' off the work surface with a flor lite built in. I used a 'sneeze guard" from a restaurant supply house and made up duct work (I had access to tons of sheet aluminium at the time) and ducted it thru a carbon filter to the outside. Cut down central A/C filters were mounted in front of the fans to reduce the vortex effect so I could use it for painting if I needed to for fine scale modeling and changed them out as needed. I'm pretty much a junkyard dog and made it up as I went along. Sold it to the guy that bought my house as the next one had no garage.

 

[cecil]

I will take pics later, I have 2, the small one is 2x3x4 feet and explosion proof, the larger not and it's still under construction.

Can't wait to see them. I appreciate the efforts all you guys make. Quite amazing. I'm not used to it.

 

[cecil]

Cecil- I was going to suggest a flow bench. Mine was pretty jury rigged out of 12 coreless DC muffin fans mounted on the back of a salvaged ESD stainless steel work bench. These have a shelf about 4' off the work surface with a flor lite built in. I used a 'sneeze guard" from a restaurant supply house and made up duct work (I had access to tons of sheet aluminium at the time) and ducted it thru a carbon filter to the outside. Cut down central A/C filters were mounted in front of the fans to reduce the vortex effect so I could use it for painting if I needed to for fine scale modeling and changed them out as needed. I'm pretty much a junkyard dog and made it up as I went along. Sold it to the guy that bought my house as the next one had no garage.

Wish you were here to advise!

 

[Winston]

Kevin,

This should give you a pretty good idea: [video=youtube;c8dovKYULEQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8dovKYULEQ[/video]

Can't imagine anything like this on wood glue. If the rocket were all aluminum and a lot more expensive, then perhaps. I'm really looking forward to your suggestions.

cecil

That's very impressive. Anyone got a link to a web page with photos and tech info about it? I can't find one.

 

[cecil]

Winston,

Scroll down for a bit more information, then, of course, there's the organization itself which may help you out.

https://www.nzrocketry.org.nz/index.php?page=workshops-2