Encourage Estes to make a C5-0 Booster Motor!

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there is no certified c5-0. Making that would cost a lot of money. Why would they when the c6-0 is the most popular booster motor?
this would be a bad business decision on their part.

I've not yet seen a well thought out explanation as to why a c6-0 could not be used.

save your time on the petition
 
I've not yet seen a well thought out explanation as to why a c6-0 could not be used.
The reason is that a C5-0 would bestow safe launch speeds on heavier two-stage rockets, no more, no less.

Since Estes are seemingly content to sell the Great Goblin with a thrust-to-weight on their own motors low enough to make it an RSO call at a Tripoli launch (under 5:1 even at max thrust), I doubt they much care about the thrust of the booster of the few multistage rockets they sell, and I doubt we'll see a C5-0, much as I'd personally like one.
 
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there is no certified c5-0. Making that would cost a lot of money. Why would they when the c6-0 is the most popular booster motor?
this would be a bad business decision on their part.

I've not yet seen a well thought out explanation as to why a c6-0 could not be used.

save your time on the petition
C5-3 has a more punch off the pad, I'll never buy a C6-3 again. If my rocket is light I'll want a C6-5 anyway.
 
there is no certified c5-0. Making that would cost a lot of money. Why would they when the c6-0 is the most popular booster motor?
this would be a bad business decision on their part.

I've not yet seen a well thought out explanation as to why a c6-0 could not be used.

save your time on the petition
Respectfully disagree

I'm certainly not an expert on rocket manufacturing, but unless the certification cost is prohibitive, seems like making a C5-0 wouldn't involve much cost. All it is is a C5-3 WITHOUT a delay and a clay cap. Likely my ignorance is showing, does Estes have a dedicated motor packing unit for EACH motor built (i.e., a machine that makes only C6-5s, one for C6-0s, etc.)? They did re-release the C5-3 and dubbed it the "super motor", so did they just have the C5-3 machine sitting idle all those years? I grant that presumably they didn't have to recertify it, since it had already been certified. But is the cost of certification that high?

Regarding the C6-0 being the most popular booster motor, I won't say you're wrong, but I'm curious of your source for this. I personally really like the D12-0. If you are only talking 18 mm motors, yeah, I can see the C6-0 being the most popular, but look at the competition. B6-0 which has same max lift off weight, but less duration. And A8-0, which potentially might stage before the rocket leaves the launch rod! (Note: I DO think the A8-0 would be a great motor for the middle of a three stage rocket. This of course assumes you are staging for the fun of staging and not seeking higher maximum altitude. I think this way because IF you were really looking for altitude, you'd do much better with a simpler and more reliable single stage rocket with a larger motor than going with three stages.)

Max lift off weight for C6-0 (and B6-0) is 113 grams, same as the other C6 motors. That's really limiting for building anything fancy with two stages. The max lift off weight for the C5-3 is 226.7, so twice that of the C6. That leaves room for a lot of creativity in a two stage build which you don't have with the C6-0. Also, two stagers are prone to weathercocking, a phenomenon which is greatly reduced by higher off the pad speeds, which a C5-0 would produce.

For what it's worth, the biggest thing holding Estes back is the absence of launch fields around the country. A campaign to get schools and parks to open their fields for rocketry would make the hobby a lot more viable. Where I live, the local Hobby lobby sells model rockets (a very small selection) but I don't really know where they are flying them.
 
Barbar:
You're right. Development of the motor is cheap. Getting your DOT Classification letter and EX number are also dirt cheap. Getting thru the NAR S&T is easy, no cost there. I'm sure the California State Fire Marshall will certify the motor out of the goodness of his heart.

After you get thru all those freebies, think about the amount of motors you'll sell and how many you'd have to sell to break even.

i'm a little confused
A C5-3 has a peak thrust of 20.41 newtons, total thrust of 7.79 newton-seconds
A C6-0 has a peak thrust of 23.3 newtons and a total thrust of 8.85 newton-seconds

the c6 can obviously lift more weight safely and has more total impulse I'm not sure how you got to double the lift off weight using the C5, but my data comes from the NAR Combined List. their thrust curves and time to peak impulse appears to be the same.....
 
i'm a little confused
A C5-3 has a peak thrust of 20.41 newtons, total thrust of 7.79 newton-seconds
A C6-0 has a peak thrust of 23.3 newtons and a total thrust of 8.85 newton-seconds

the c6 can obviously lift more weight safely and has more total impulse I'm not sure how you got to double the lift off weight using the C5, but my data comes from the NAR Combined List. their thrust curves and time to peak impulse appears to be the same.....
Here are the certification documents from NAR's website:
The C5 has peak thrust of 20.41N, yes, but the C6 has a peak thrust of 14.09N, not 23.3. Where did you find that latter number?
 
uggh there's a cross link on the webpage to quest's c6 i stand corrected on peak thrust.
 
Better solution: Have Estes make all sorts of rocket engines, including the C5-0 AND the C6-0. More options is better!

If there is only a small market for an engine, no problem. Make it in small production runs, sell it only at estesrockets.com, and increase the price as necessary to make a profit. People who want that engine will buy it. If it becomes a hot seller, then release it to vendors.
Unfortunately it's not that easy. While making them is not so hard, certifying them is. And then there is the issue of customer confusion. Faced with too many choices, customers will work away. Deciding on the right product selection is an artform.
 
It required a worker to drill a hole in the packed propellant slug. They were discontinued because of a fatal accident in their manufacture.

I can respect Estes for prioritizing worker safety over a product line. If they can come up with a way to do it safely, I’m all for it.
I do not recall ever hearing of a fatality that involved the making of B14 motors. There was safety concerns over manually having to drill the deeper core for the B14.
Yes, it did require additional steps which increased the cost of production over other 'B' motors. I worked in two hobby stores in the past and the B14/B8 motors were more expensive than B4/B6 motors.
 
Respectfully disagree

I'm certainly not an expert on rocket manufacturing, but unless the certification cost is prohibitive, seems like making a C5-0 wouldn't involve much cost. All it is is a C5-3 WITHOUT a delay and a clay cap. Likely my ignorance is showing, does Estes have a dedicated motor packing unit for EACH motor built (i.e., a machine that makes only C6-5s, one for C6-0s, etc.)? They did re-release the C5-3 and dubbed it the "super motor", so did they just have the C5-3 machine sitting idle all those years? I grant that presumably they didn't have to recertify it, since it had already been certified. But is the cost of certification that high?
You forget one very important fact.

Machine downtime.

It takes the better part of one day to re-tool one of the six Mable motor machines to make a different rocket motor. After that is completed there has to be hours of testing to get the settings just right for production of the specific motor. After that motor machine finishes it's production run then things have to stop while the machine is re-tooled to make another motor type. All this can result in 3-4 days of downtime when there is no motor production happening on that machine.

That's lost revenue.

Making motors that have a known track record of strong sales (C6-5, B6-4, A8-3) is the better use of machine time.
 
You forget one very important fact.

Machine downtime.

It takes the better part of one day to re-tool one of the six Mable motor machines to make a different rocket motor. After that is completed there has to be hours of testing to get the settings just right for production of the specific motor. After that motor machine finishes it's production run then things have to stop while the machine is re-tooled to make another motor type. All this can result in 3-4 days of downtime when there is no motor production happening on that machine.

That's lost revenue.

Making motors that have a known track record of strong sales (C6-5, B6-4, A8-3) is the better use of machine time.
Good point……..but I still really wanna C5-0!😭
 
There's no point in making a C6-3 or C6-0 anymore. I don't stage but I can't see any benefit of a C6 instead of a C5 booster. The C5-3 is one of my favorite motors for larger 18mm rockets.
What the C5 gains in initial thrust, it more than give back in sustained thrust. It has 17% less impulse.
1702907427473.png
So a C6-0 still has a place in relatively light stage rockets. C6-0 to A8-x is a nice combination, not intrinsically any worse that C5-0 to A8-x would be for many rockets.

More options equals more goodlyness.

Well, I suppose they could modify the thrust curve for even stronger initial thrust and a shorter low thrust period, but I don’t want to ask too much.
I don't know if the initial thrust needs to be stronger... it's just that the tail of the thrust needs to be stronger and shorter duration. It would of course cease to be a C5 at that point, which is fine.
Something like this:
1702908213934.png
(Scale the purple's low thrust period so the total impulse comes out close the the C5; I probably don't have it right.)
 
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What the C5 gains in initial thrust, it more than give back in sustained thrust. It has 17% less impulse.
View attachment 620506
So a C6-0 still has a place in relatively light stage rockets. C6-0 to A8-x is a nice combination, not intrinsically any worse that C5-0 to A8-x would be for many rockets.

More options equals more goodlyness.



Something like this:
View attachment 620510
(Scale the purple's low thrust period so the total impulse comes out close the the C5; I probably don't have it right.)


The 24mm C11 is just about perfect - but it's 24mm:

1702911176839.png
 
It required a worker to drill a hole in the packed propellant slug. They were discontinued because of a fatal accident in their manufacture.
I did not know that. And having done it myself on multiple occasions, I guess this thread is a hint to leave that practice in the past.

I also have a C6 that I sawed down the length so the hundreds of kids I helped fly could see the innards.
 
What the C5 gains in initial thrust, it more than give back in sustained thrust. It has 17% less impulse.
View attachment 620506
So a C6-0 still has a place in relatively light stage rockets. C6-0 to A8-x is a nice combination, not intrinsically any worse that C5-0 to A8-x would be for many rockets.

More options equals more goodlyness.



Something like this:
View attachment 620510
(Scale the purple's low thrust period so the total impulse comes out close the the C5; I probably don't have it right.)
I'd be happy with the original Centuri C5. I have no real complaints with the newish Estes C5 except that that I have not seen any in semi-local hobby stores, and I have not purchased or flown any. I have the same complaint with other new Estes motors and Quest motors. I would like to see more motor options, but I would make distribution and getting more motors on local shelves and hooks the real priority.
 
I do not recall ever hearing of a fatality that involved the making of B14 motors. There was safety concerns over manually having to drill the deeper core for the B14.
Yes, it did require additional steps which increased the cost of production over other 'B' motors. I worked in two hobby stores in the past and the B14/B8 motors were more expensive than B4/B6 motors.
You know what, I haven’t looked into contemporary news stories or accident reports or anything like that. I think I remember reading it from somebody who probably just knew this guy who knew this guy who knew this guy who knew this guy’s cousin who was the involved, so you could very easily be correct.
 
maybe you could convince AT to make a qjet booster that could light a estes sustainer. Imagine a D22-0 instead of a c6-0.........

i know that's dreaming!
 
I'd be happy with the original Centuri C5. I have no real complaints with the newish Estes C5 except that that I have not seen any in semi-local hobby stores, and I have not purchased or flown any. I have the same complaint with other new Estes motors and Quest motors. I would like to see more motor options, but I would make distribution and getting more motors on local shelves and hooks the real priority.
AC Supply is your best friend here....or at least they have been for me in getting C5-3s, A3-2T and A3-6Ts, and assorted Q-Jets.

I may have already said this, but the current C5 time-thrust curve looks so much like the A10 time-thrust curve that I'd be afraid that the models we'd put them in would get a good punch off the pad, but then barely maintain velocity, not accelerate after that initial kick. I see this behavior flying my Checkmate all the time. Some A10s have such a weak "tail" that the model visibly seems to slow down before zipping off when it stages to an A3. FlightSketch accelerometer data shows this pretty clearly, too as a section of barely 1G during the tail of the A10's burn.
 
AC Supply is your best friend here....or at least they have been for me in getting C5-3s, A3-2T and A3-6Ts, and assorted Q-Jets.

I may have already said this, but the current C5 time-thrust curve looks so much like the A10 time-thrust curve that I'd be afraid that the models we'd put them in would get a good punch off the pad, but then barely maintain velocity, not accelerate after that initial kick. I see this behavior flying my Checkmate all the time. Some A10s have such a weak "tail" that the model visibly seems to slow down before zipping off when it stages to an A3. FlightSketch accelerometer data shows this pretty clearly, too as a section of barely 1G during the tail of the A10's burn.
I am familiar with AC Supply. Nevertheless, the rocket motor supply chain to LHSs still needs improvement. I'd be perfectly happy with reliable 18mm and 24mm upscales of the A10. Use a simulator and avoid doing stupid things,
 
I am familiar with AC Supply. Nevertheless, the rocket motor supply chain to LHSs still needs improvement. I'd be perfectly happy with reliable 18mm and 24mm upscales of the A10. Use a simulator and avoid doing stupid things,
Well....it's nice that you still have an LHS to which supply needs to be sent. Well, I suppose HobbyTown USA stores sort of count, and it is true that I've seen none of the recently-released motors in the one nearest me. But I would feel kind of funny asking them to stock C5-3s and A3-6Ts when I've been getting them from ACS mostly. I think I got a few A3-6Ts from jonrocket.com and a few from RocketryWorks before he closed it down.
 
AC Supply is your best friend here....or at least they have been for me in getting C5-3s, A3-2T and A3-6Ts, and assorted Q-Jets.

I may have already said this, but the current C5 time-thrust curve looks so much like the A10 time-thrust curve that I'd be afraid that the models we'd put them in would get a good punch off the pad, but then barely maintain velocity, not accelerate after that initial kick. I see this behavior flying my Checkmate all the time. Some A10s have such a weak "tail" that the model visibly seems to slow down before zipping off when it stages to an A3. FlightSketch accelerometer data shows this pretty clearly, too as a section of barely 1G during the tail of the A10's burn.
Hmmmm, quite possible I am not thinking this right.

concur with both you and @jqavins that there IS a weak tail that might not be optimal. But from your statements “barely maintain velocity” and “barely 1 G during the tail”, I’m thinking’, “as long as velocity is maintained, if you got off the pad okay (when velocity is slowest) your rocket SHOULD be fine as long as it doesn’t significantly DEcelerate. If your accelerometer is measuring “1 G”, wouldn’t that rocket be at constant velocity (assuming that it’s relatively vertical)?

again, agree with @jqavins , IF you have a rocket that CAN get off the pad adequately with either C6-0 or non-existent C5-0, due mainly to (I think) the fewer newtons in the C5-0 and possibly the higher initial velocity from the C5‘s larger “spike” increased drag, the C6 is more efficient and is going to stage higher. But my target is not “rockets that could fly on both.” I’m thinking there are rockets that are too heavy (over 113 grams, per Estes motor chart) for the C6 to GET them off the rod with a stable velocity. Once it is safely off the rod, even If the motor tail can only manage 1 G, I theeeeenk velocity should be constant, so what started safe SHOULD stay safe. Even if the tail is less than 1G, is the tail THAT long that the ensuing deceleration would drop it BELOW safe speed during that 1.7 seconds seconds after the spike?

@BEC , you said your Checkmate “visibly seems to slow down” before staging, I haven’t flown accelerometers, so I is ignorant, but does your Data show it is “slowing down” or that is “no longer accelerating”?

the first is potentially a serious Problem. The second is, at worst, inefficient.

I like staging just for the point of staging, not for altitude (the latter with MODEL rockets is generally more easily achieved, at least in low power realm, with single stage bigger motor.). Okay, I do want it to at least get OFF the rod BEFORE it stages (had one that didn‘t, spent 5 or 10 minutes looking for the booster before I thought to look ON the pad!), and I don’t know, at least up 50 to 100 feet before it stages. More than that, meh, doesn’t add much for ME. I kinda like to SEE the staging, and if it is much higher than that, doesn’t add anything and kind of takes away something.

so I think that those of us whining for a C5-0 are doing so because we think it would help use with 18mm mounts that for whatever reason can’t be upgraded to 24mm (which I agree is clearly the way to go IF you can, as @jmasterj said), and that are either heavier than 113 grams and or extra draggy (which stagers tend to be the FarSide is an excellent example.) Are we wrong about that Due to the “weak tail”?
 
😜 concur with both you and @jqavins that there IS a weak tail that might not be optimal. But from your statements “barely maintain velocity” and “barely 1 G during the tail”, I’m thinking’, “as long as velocity is maintained, if you got off the pad okay (when velocity is slowest) your rocket SHOULD be fine as long as it doesn’t significantly DEcelerate. If your accelerometer is measuring “1 G”, wouldn’t that rocket be at constant velocity (assuming that it’s relatively vertical)?
Agreed, but for a small point of information. An accelerometer is generally going to read 0 on the pad; even though it's experiencing 1 G, that's subracted out. So if the reading is 1 G, you're accelerating. But I do think you've got the right idea, just not the right words.

again, agree with @jqavins , IF you have a rocket that CAN get off the pad adequately with either C6-0 or non-existent C5-0, due mainly to (I think) the fewer newtons...
BZZZT! Pedant here. The C5 provides more Newtons (N), i.e. higher thrust (initially). It provides fewer Newton-seconds (Ns), i.e. less impulse. Come on, this is pretty basic for someone who builds rockets for NASA. 😜
in the C5-0 and possibly the higher initial velocity from the C5‘s larger “spike” increased drag
Not sure, but I believe drag is very rarely an important consideration at the speeds one gets off the rod.
the C6 is... going to stage higher.
Yes, under those conditions, that's likely to be true. With your preference to see the staging, that might be a reason for you to like the hypothetical C5-0.
Okay, I do want it to at least get OFF the rod BEFORE it stages (had one that didn‘t, spent 5 or 10 minutes looking for the booster before I thought to look ON the pad!)
🤣
 
here's another monkey with a wrench:

If estes brand rockets that are 2 stage or more are designed to fly with the C6-0, then what problem with ESTES rockets would ESTES be solving with the c5-0? the problem seems to be with scratch built or other manufacture's rockets, which isn't ESTES' problem......

reducing their interest in solving other manufacture's problems.
 
Their interest is in selling products. If there are enough scratch built rockets and other companies' kits that would benefit from a C5-0 to make manufacturing them profitable, then it's in their interest interest to do so. But are there enough? I honestly doubt it, but it never hurts to ask.
 
here's another monkey with a wrench:

If estes brand rockets that are 2 stage or more are designed to fly with the C6-0, then what problem with ESTES rockets would ESTES be solving with the c5-0? the problem seems to be with scratch built or other manufacture's rockets, which isn't ESTES' problem......

reducing their interest in solving other manufacture's problems.
I agree they have little incentives other than the John Langford's love of the hobby and keeping hobbyists excited about Estes. That may not be enough to make a C5-0 worthwhile to them (I suspect it is not, or we would have seen it already).

I'm curious about the C5-3 itself though. Since releasing the C5-3, have they released any rockets that require it rather than the C6?
 
I agree they have little incentives other than the John Langford's love of the hobby and keeping hobbyists excited about Estes. That may not be enough to make a C5-0 worthwhile to them (I suspect it is not, or we would have seen it already).

I'm curious about the C5-3 itself though. Since releasing the C5-3, have they released any rockets that require it rather than the C6?
Officially, no. In practice, I think I heard that the Falcon flies better with it.
 
I do not recall ever hearing of a fatality that involved the making of B14 motors. There was safety concerns over manually having to drill the deeper core for the B14.
Yes, it did require additional steps which increased the cost of production over other 'B' motors. I worked in two hobby stores in the past and the B14/B8 motors were more expensive than B4/B6 motors.
If the core in B14 motors was drilled, I have to wonder: why? For literally hundreds of years, skyrocket motors used a metal base, shaped to form the nozzle, and a long spindle on the base that formed the core. Being much larger than other nozzle throats, the B14 nozzle required its own metal base anyway. Why not include the long spindle and press the motors in the time-honored fashion?
 
I have often wondered the same thing. Or, if the price of the extra tooling was prohibitive at the time, would it be worth looking at that proposition anew? (Or have they, in fact, looked at it anew and rejected it again?) I would love to get my hands on some B14-0s, and some B14-x engines for payloaders, and I'd be willing to pay more for them than for B6s (up to a point).
 
here's another monkey with a wrench:

If estes brand rockets that are 2 stage or more are designed to fly with the C6-0, then what problem with ESTES rockets would ESTES be solving with the c5-0? the problem seems to be with scratch built or other manufacture's rockets, which isn't ESTES' problem......

reducing their interest in solving other manufacture's problems.
I know of at least one kit, the MIRV , that was a stager, one booster, 3 sustainers. As an aside, it had unique geometric custom nose cones , so Estes does continue to play around with retooling (I think @neil_w talked about this issue in another post, so good on Estes, they do try new stuff.) per catalog, expected mass 134 grams

https://www.spacemodeling.org/jimz/publications/estes_2015_catalog_37.png
If you read Estes Motor Chart , says

“Do not fly a rocket/ engine combination that exceeds maximum lift off recommendations”

https://estesrockets.com/cdn/shop/p...b668-4671d8166203.jpg?v=1678818915&width=1206
@BEC has seen some of these fly well. Mine was miserable, severe weathercocking off the pad, ironically found the booster but all three sustainers cruise missiled into oblivion. To be fair, I think my finishing technique put me a bit over stock expected weight, but I think manufacturers need to build in a bit of cushion for non-glider and non-helicopter rockets.

I have read similar stories on Estes Loadstar, which is stock built supposed to be 103 grams, but it IS a payloader. It also has typical huge booster fins, so not sure the C motor recommended limit is applicable to such draggy rockets.

So Estes HAS produced some stagers that are borderline at best. An 18 mm booster that gives more punch off pad would open options for both Estes and scratch builders to come up with some more cool designs. If they had a C5-0, I’d definitely buy a rereleased MIRV (and they already have the molds for the cones and the booster fincan/manifold.
 
here's another monkey with a wrench:

If estes brand rockets that are 2 stage or more are designed to fly with the C6-0, then what problem with ESTES rockets would ESTES be solving with the c5-0? the problem seems to be with scratch built or other manufacture's rockets, which isn't ESTES' problem......

reducing their interest in solving other manufacture's problems.
My personal experience with Estes 18mm two-stagers is that the boosters are underpowered and barely— if that — can get the rocket and the mass of an additional motor to an adequate velocity to ensure stability by the time it leaves the rod. If you want to lift a few grams of payload, it’s even sketchier. For anything other than a minimum diameter build, I’d use a 24mm booster to be sure of getting enough punch at liftoff. A C5 would make a lot of sense for a stock 18mm booster.
 
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