Diameter difference between Body Tube ID and MMT OD

The Rocketry Forum

Help Support The Rocketry Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

ThisGamerAlex

Active Member
Joined
Jul 17, 2022
Messages
31
Reaction score
3
Location
Barcelona
Hello fellow rocketeers, hope you are doing well. As I kept designing my future rocket, one doubt came into my mind when looking at my BT and MMT. First of all, my BT is 1,968" OD and 1,85" ID; my MMT is 1,574" OD and 1,496" (38mm) ID.

The thing is, there is only left 1 3/8 or 1,377" (3,5 mm) between the BT and the MMT because of the limited dimensions for BT available when trying to get from 5 mm to lower (only found 4mm tube) so that I can use a 38mm motor.

The question (that I think I know the answer, but want to hear you out) is: that's not even close to enough space between both, right?

In case that's not enough space bewteen BT and MMT, how much would be acceptable? I am able to get larger diameters for both tubes (not a lot to choose from tho).

Thanks in advance and have a great day!

~Alex
 
Hello fellow rocketeers, hope you are doing well. As I kept designing my future rocket, one doubt came into my mind when looking at my BT and MMT. First of all, my BT is 1,968" OD and 1,85" ID; my MMT is 1,574" OD and 1,496" (38mm) ID.

The thing is, there is only left 1 3/8 or 1,377" (3,5 mm) between the BT and the MMT because of the limited dimensions for BT available when trying to get from 5 mm to lower (only found 4mm tube) so that I can use a 38mm motor.

The question (that I think I know the answer, but want to hear you out) is: that's not even close to enough space between both, right?

In case that's not enough space bewteen BT and MMT, how much would be acceptable? I am able to get larger diameters for both tubes (not a lot to choose from tho).

Thanks in advance and have a great day!

~Alex
You dont have to have centering rings, at least not wood ones, they can be built up with tape, or glue and paper or whatever material. It is important to get good bonding though. If you have access to a laser cutter, extremely thin centering rings can be cut.
 
You dont have to have centering rings, at least not wood ones, they can be built up with tape, or glue and paper or whatever material. It is important to get good bonding though. If you have access to a laser cutter, extremely thin centering rings can be cut.

NO, NOT with a 38MM motor ! ( OP said he wants to use a 38MM motor )

That is "H"- "J" ( plus a couple of "K" motors ) impulse range . . . Paper, Tape, & Glue is NOT ENOUGH !

We do not know the "experience level" of this person . . . To me, he sounds like an inexperienced flyer, possibly not certified !

Dave F.
 
Last edited:
Hello fellow rocketeers, hope you are doing well. As I kept designing my future rocket, one doubt came into my mind when looking at my BT and MMT. First of all, my BT is 1,968" OD and 1,85" ID; my MMT is 1,574" OD and 1,496" (38mm) ID.

The thing is, there is only left 1 3/8 or 1,377" (3,5 mm) between the BT and the MMT because of the limited dimensions for BT available when trying to get from 5 mm to lower (only found 4mm tube) so that I can use a 38mm motor.

The question (that I think I know the answer, but want to hear you out) is: that's not even close to enough space between both, right?

In case that's not enough space bewteen BT and MMT, how much would be acceptable? I am able to get larger diameters for both tubes (not a lot to choose from tho).

Thanks in advance and have a great day!

~Alex
There is no real minimum space between the tubes for all cases. Heck, you don't really need any space at all. What is your specific concern? When you say that you think there's not enough space, why not? Not enough space for what?

Rich (the first reply above) seems to have assumed that your concern is having enough room for centering rings. Or at least, he's figured that might be it. If that is indeed it, centering rings that are 3.5 mm from the outer to the inner edge are really not such a big deal. With a laser cutter they'd be easy to make from aircraft plywood. With a CNC router or any similar tool they'd be easy to make from plywood, fiberglass, or some other sorts of stuff. They could even be made by hand if you're sufficiently skilled (which I'm not).
1658855038144.png
(That's actual size if printed.)

If that's not the concern, please describe what the concern is.

We do not know the [your] "experience level"...
That's a fair point. The question could indicate that you don't have experience, but then you could be an absolute master with low power rockets just starting in high power and lacking a local community to learn from. Would I be right in guessing that English is not your first language? That's been known to lead to all sorts of misunderstandings. So please let us know just where you're starting from, what your past experience is, what your current goals are, etc. It's possible that there is a lot more help you'll need and we can provide than advice on MMT to BT spacing. Or maybe not. Who knows? We don't know. Only you know.
 
Last edited:
NO, NOT with a 38MM motor ! ( OP said he wants to use a 38MM motor )

That is "H"- "J" ( plus a couple of "K" motors ) impulse range . . . Paper, Tape, & Glue is NOT ENOUGH !

We do not know the "experience level" of this person . . . To me, he sounds like an inexperienced flyer, possibly not certified !

Dave F.
Yes you can Dave,

Its all in how you buildup the ring and bond it to the tubes. Been there done that got the t-shirt. I have built up rings using card stock and 30 minute epoxy several times, using 1/2" wide 110lb card stock strips laminated around the motor tube, the epoxy penetrates the paper building a laminate structure thats probably as strong as a thin 1/4" thick plywood ring. It was a 38mm motor tube inside a BMS T188 tube, why? because I had the parts and it worked.
 
I've seen "centering rings" made by wrapping turn after turn of masking tape around the MMT until it's a good fit inside the BT. I consider it half-assed for LP application, and I'd never consider it or condone it for even the smallest of HP motors.

So Dave, if something like that is what you took Rich's first post to mean then I would have to agree with you. Otherwise, there are many ways to skin a cat, even if it's a tiger.

But then, we still don't know if that's got anything to do with what the OP is asking about.
 
Yes you can Dave,

Its all in how you buildup the ring and bond it to the tubes. Been there done that got the t-shirt. I have built up rings using card stock and 30 minute epoxy several times, using 1/2" wide 110lb card stock strips laminated around the motor tube, the epoxy penetrates the paper building a laminate structure thats probably as strong as a thin 1/4" thick plywood ring. It was a 38mm motor tube inside a BMS T188 tube, why? because I had the parts and it worked.
Rich,

Did the OP sound like an experienced flyer to you ? From what I read, he did not.

He was very "vague" ( "So that I can use a 38mm motor" ) and did not mention what motor was being considered. The body tube and motor mount tube that he mentioned were not a "standard size" ( "BT is 1,968" OD and 1,85" ID; my MMT is 1,574" OD and 1,496" (38mm) ID." ). We have no idea what materials are being used, either.

To me, he sounded like a new rocketeer, with little "model rocket" experience, who wanted to fly an HPR motor. He never metioned being certified, either.

There are many techniques, used by experienced rocketeers, that newcomers should not try, until they gain experience.

The OP also, in other posts, mentioned Richard Nakka. That indicates to me that he is looking to build his own motor. That, plus his unknown experience level and materials chosen, waves "red flags" for me.

https://www.rocketryforum.com/members/thisgameralex.40278/#recent-content

I chose to err on the side of caution, under the circumstances !

Dave F.
 
Last edited:
Sorry for the delay in answering to all your messages, I try to answer always as fast as possible and I keep recharging for a notification but it seems like I missed it somehow..

It seems like I should have been more clear about my knowledge and what is my problem. So starting out with the info about me, as @jqavins guessed, english is not my first language, it's spanish but I try my best to improve it. I'm 22 yo trying to get into the aerospace engineering career here in Spain. I got really interested in rockets and aviation like 2 years ago and changed my life plans just to be able to work on this field. Unfortunatelly, due to the kinda short amount of time since I "discovered" it and the lack of passion for rocketry on this country, I'm an inexperienced rocketeer.

That said and taking a look at what I want to build, I don't want it to look like I just got into building a rocket without knowing anything, I'm really trying to gather as much knowledge on the subject as I can because I like it and because it's necessary, always safety is first. So please, I know many of you may think I'm crazy or that I'm another dude that will mess it up and give bad name to rocketry because I've very limited experience but don't go really hard on me, I'm trying my best to get into rocketry, talking with the people that know the most and can help me the most.

What I was asking originally is if there is enough room for fitting, for example, the I bolt attached to the forward centering ring. Maybe it's a stupid doubt but because I always see rockets that have a considerable diammeter diff between BT and MMT, that's why I asked if it's a standard or just happens. My skill lvl? Well, my family are carpenters and I've been working there since I was a child so I manage a bit with wood stuff, have some cutting machines etc (sadly not a laser cutter) but I could manage to use one. We do have a vertical CNC machine.

Any other info that you may want to know about me or my project, just tell me. I'm still designing it so changes can be easily made, the motor will be between a G and H 38mm but as said, it's not definitive yet.

Thanks for the kind and supportive comments always, take care.
~Alex
 
Well, first off, welcome to the hobby and the forum. You're definitely doing the right thing by asking questions and being safe. What I've already said about this question is true of lots of questions you are likely to ask: be as specific as you can, since this will help us to help you.

Next, some general advice:
  • I'd recommend building a few kits of lower power rockets and then working your way up. The rocket kits designed around 18 mm A, B, and C engines may seem like little toys, but the fact is that you can learn a lot by building a few of those while the risks and costs are a lot lower than jumping up to G and H motors and a rocket build for them.
  • Is there any amount of enthusiasm for the hobby in your area? We encourage people to join a local club if there is one, since that would hook you up with a place to launch and with people to learn from in person.
  • Here in the US, and in Canada, and in many countries there are rules about high power rocketry. Here that basically means anything using H motors and bigger (though there are some other situations that make a thing count as high power also). I don't know what EU or Spanish rules exist, but you'd best find out.
Now, back to your original topic. Some rockets are made with no motor tube inside the body tube at all, known as "minimum diameter" rockets. While they present some interesting design challenges in high power, you can see that there is no real minimum gap.

Attaching one's parachute harness to the forward centering ring is just one of many ways to attach it. You're right that it's a nice way, and you're right that with only 3.5 mm it's not suited to this design. So you'll use another method.

Any more such concerns you may have along similar lines will bring a similar answer: there's always another way to do it. There's nothing wrong with your tube sizes.
 
Unfortunatelly, due to the kinda short amount of time since I "discovered" it and the lack of passion for rocketry on this country, I'm an inexperienced rocketeer.

~Alex
As I thought . . . The important things are "safety first", getting experience with small rockets and motors, followed by moving into fly larger rockets.

Dave F.
 
Well, first off, welcome to the hobby and the forum. You're definitely doing the right thing by asking questions and being safe. What I've already said about this question is true of lots of questions you are likely to ask: be as specific as you can, since this will help us to help you.

Next, some general advice:
  • I'd recommend building a few kits of lower power rockets and then working your way up. The rocket kits designed around 18 mm A, B, and C engines may seem like little toys, but the fact is that you can learn a lot by building a few of those while the risks and costs are a lot lower than jumping up to G and H motors and a rocket build for them.
  • Is there any amount of enthusiasm for the hobby in your area? We encourage people to join a local club if there is one, since that would hook you up with a place to launch and with people to learn from in person.
  • Here in the US, and in Canada, and in many countries there are rules about high power rocketry. Here that basically means anything using H motors and bigger (though there are some other situations that make a thing count as high power also). I don't know what EU or Spanish rules exist, but you'd best find out.
Now, back to your original topic. Some rockets are made with no motor tube inside the body tube at all, known as "minimum diameter" rockets. While they present some interesting design challenges in high power, you can see that there is no real minimum gap.

Attaching one's parachute harness to the forward centering ring is just one of many ways to attach it. You're right that it's a nice way, and you're right that with only 3.5 mm it's not suited to this design. So you'll use another method.

Any more such concerns you may have along similar lines will bring a similar answer: there's always another way to do it. There's nothing wrong with your tube sizes.
Thanks for the welcoming and kind message. I'll try my best to always be as specific as possible.

I know that the best way to get into rocketry would be to start with some kits, building up my knowledge and crafting skills with time and experience, I really do, and I feel "wrong" for doing it this way and not the way it's common (it's the way it is for a reason, that's for sure). Why do I want to do it this way and stick with it, atleast for this project? Because (this is something I explained on my introduction post to the forum, in case someone wanna read it more in detail) in November I'll be presenting a research project called "design and construction of an experimental rocket". I really want to be who has investigated, designed and constructed the hole rocket and motor (as far as possible), to know why things are the way they are. Also, this project would serve myself as my introduction to rocketry, bearing in mind that if everything goes according to plan, in september 2023 I should be starting the aerospace engineering career.
I know that there are dangers 1) by building an experimental rocket --> handmade motor, and 2) starting from this point, but after a long time trying to decide to do this or that or this way or another, I decided to do this but with the most research possible and doing it safely. I started doing my research around november last year till now, and since may/june I spend almost every day working on this.

I'm aware that at least one amateur rocketry group exists here in Spain (a Tripoli prefecture) but they don't seem to be really active (not saying they are, just seems like to me) and tend to do launches really far away from where I live, given that I'm currently studying again, it's impossible for me to go to those launches. This said, I'll try to gather more info about it and join it if I can, but given that I like the experimental side of rocketry, maybe that will be an inconvenience.

I have searched for the rules and legality of rocketry here in Spain but I've found that for the moment it's an unregulated subject. They do regulate drones, aeromodelling, etc but not rocketry. So what I'll do is follow the official safety rules followed in the US to do it the best I can.

I'm aware of minimum diameter rockets and I have been questioning if mine should be designed as one but I think I'll stick with a "normal". One of the main doubts I have at the moment is about the motor retaining system I should use, but that's another topic I'll probably post about later (I feel like I'm posting too much and feel kinda bad). Thought there maybe was a jump from a min dia rocket to an stablished difference in diameters.

Then my question is: in case I don't change the tubes, what method could I use to link the lower BT to the av bay (I'll mostly sure add one)? I've seen that some people glue the shock cord to the BT itself but it could maybe unglue with the ejection force or brake the wall if thin enough, right?

Thanks again for your comment! :) I appreciate it.

~Alex
 
I'm aware that at least one amateur rocketry group exists here in Spain (a Tripoli prefecture) but they don't seem to be really active (not saying they are, just seems like to me) and tend to do launches really far away from where I live, given that I'm currently studying again, it's impossible for me to go to those launches. This said, I'll try to gather more info about it and join it if I can, but given that I like the experimental side of rocketry, maybe that will be an inconvenience.
Tripoli Spain . . .

http://www.tripoli-spain.org

Dave F.
 
For harness attachment, two methods other than gluing directly to the body tube come quickly to my mind. There are many more methods that other people will surely jump in with.
  • You could install an "open bulkhead". By that I mean the same thing as a centering ring for a smaller MMT, but without a tube inside it. Then attach a U bolt to that just as one would to the forward CR with a smaller motor.
  • You could take a notch out of the forward CR. (This is probably what I would do.) Since the ring's material width is 3.5 mm, make the notch the same 3.5 mm in length, leaving an open square. "Wouldn't that weaken the centering ring?", I hear you asking. Once the CR is epoxied into place it won't matter; you'll be losing 3.5 mm of circumference, and will still have about 120 mm left. While assembling the motor mount, run a 3 mm cord through the gap then form it into a loop around the MMT, under the CR and epoxy the loop into place against the lower face of the CR, embedded in the fillet you'll be putting there. Then once the whole motor mount assembly is epoxied into the body tube (which will include epoxy around the cord in that notch) the cord will be very well secured.
    • I think a 3 mm cord of the right material should be plenty strong enough, but if you're worried about that here's a variant. You could do the same thing in two places on the forward CR (which would make it into two pieces) and use a shorter (not very short) piece of the 3 mm cord coming up one notch and back down the other. Tie a heavier cord to the middle of that. Then all the deployment load is shared by two 3 mm lines. This also has the advantage of putting the main cord in the middle of the BT, which reduces the risk of zippering a little.
 
Last edited:
I've seen "centering rings" made by wrapping turn after turn of masking tape around the MMT until it's a good fit inside the BT. I consider it half-assed for LP application, and I'd never consider it or condone it for even the smallest of HP motors.

So Dave, if something like that is what you took Rich's first post to mean then I would have to agree with you. Otherwise, there are many ways to skin a cat, even if it's a tiger.

But then, we still don't know if that's got anything to do with what the OP is asking about.

Come on Joe, half assed? You have to look at the entire design, and how it is implemented. What if the design is a through-the-wall fin design that utilizes masking tape centering rings?

I use masking tape when the centering ring is only about 1/8" or less in annular width. I then use Gorilla wood glue on both sides of the tape, making fillets that are the same height as the centering ring.

It's a proven technique that works and there's nothing half-assed about it.

003.JPG002.JPG
 
For harness attachment, two methods other than gluing directly to the body tube come quickly to my mind. There are many more methods that other people will surely jump in with.
  • You could install an "open bulkhead". By that I mean the same thing as a centering ring for a smaller MMT, but without a tube inside it. Then attach a U bolt to that just as one would to the forward CR with a smaller motor.
  • You could take a notch out of the forward CR. (This is probably what I would do.) Since the ring's material width is 3.5 mm, make the notch the same 3.5 mm in length, leaving an open square. "Wouldn't that weaken the centering ring?", I hear you asking. Once the CR is epoxied into place it won't matter; you'll be losing 3.5 mm of circumference, and will still have about 120 mm left. While assembling the motor mount, run a 3 mm cord through the gap then form it into a loop around the MMT, under the CR and epoxy the loop into place against the lower face of the CR, embedded in the fillet you'll be putting there. Then once the whole motor mount assembly is epoxied into the body tube (which will include epoxy around the cord in that notch) the cord will be very well secured.
    • I think a 3 mm cord of the right material should be plenty strong enough, but if you're worried about that here's a variant. You could do the same thing in two places on the forward CR (which would make it into two pieces) and use a shorter (not very short) piece of the 3 mm cord coming up one notch and back down the other. Tie a heavier cord to the middle of that. Then all the deployment load is shared by two 3 mm lines. This also has the advantage of putting the main cord in the middle of the BT, which reduces the risk of zippering a little.
I like all those ideas but the one that got me the most is probably the last one. Speaking of the last option, would it be a good idea to use a quicklink to attach the heavier cord to the middle of the other?
 
Come on Joe, half assed? You have to look at the entire design, and how it is implemented. What if the design is a through-the-wall fin design that utilizes masking tape centering rings?

I use masking tape when the centering ring is only about 1/8" or less in annular width. I then use Gorilla wood glue on both sides of the tape, making fillets that are the same height as the centering ring.

It's a proven technique that works and there's nothing half-assed about it.
All right, I give. The one I saw had tape wrapped to build up from a BT-20 to a BT-60 if I remember right, so almost 7/16 thick. And no fillets. And it had aged to where the tape's glue dried and the layers were separating (yours are probably wound much tighter). That was half-assed at best. This was in a box of rockets needing repair to then be given away by the club to kids. I pulled the motor mount out - literally, just pulled - then unwrapped the tape and put proper centering rings on.

Yours are different in at least three material ways.
  1. (I assume) tighter and neater winding of the tape onto the tube, which would prevent layer separation even of the tape's glue deteriorates.
  2. Wood glue fillets the same height as the tape wrap mean that even if the tape were beamed out the glue itself would probably serve as adequate solid centering rings.
  3. The fin tabs would hold the MMT in place even if the tape and fillets were all beamed out.
Anyway, if that's a tried and true method, then I've learned something today. Which make this a good day.
 
The one I saw had tape wrapped to build up from a BT-20 to a BT-60 if I remember right, so almost 7/16 thick. And no fillets. And it had aged to where the tape's glue dried and the layers were separating (yours are probably wound much tighter). That was half-assed at best.

Agreed... not a very robust design. Maybe it was to absorb the motor kick.... :shocked: lol
 
I don't know about the tape around the motor tube thing, although people continue to insist that you can wrap masking tape around the back end of the engine to form a thrust ring to transfer thrust from engine to engine mount tube. If it works there it should work between motor mount tube and airframe. Granted I don't know what the recognized limit is for tape around the motor, I don't think I've seen anybody use it on an M for instance.

If I was building a motor mount with only 3mm between motor mount tube and airframe I would probably roll something like 1" wide paper around the motor mount tube with plenty of glue to build up an OD that would fit within the airframe. I would do 2 rings, one front and one back. Then I would smear plenty of epoxy inside the airframe where the front ring would be, slide the motor mount in about halfway, force more epoxy inside the airframe from the back then push the motor mount in the full amount. This would build up epoxy in front of the front ring and also in front of the rear ring. This seems like it would be sufficient but I've never launched anything larger than I motors.

If a person wanted maximum strength in this situation I would recommend gluing the fins to the motor mount tube, slotting the airframe for the fins, then you could build up glue fillets to the motor mount and also to the airframe.
 
If I was building a motor mount with only 3mm between motor mount tube and airframe I would probably roll something like 1" wide paper around the motor mount tube with plenty of glue to build up an OD that would fit within the airframe. I would do 2 rings, one front and one back.
If I were doing that, I'd also make darn sure the paper strip is pulled quite tight during winding to ensure the layers are packed tight against each other. I'd keep the outer surface of the strip clean as it's would on, so I could apply tape holding that tension while the glue dries or cures. But then, really, I wouldn't do it with paper at all; 3.5 mm is plenty of meat to make a plywood centering ring.
Then I would smear plenty of epoxy inside the airframe where the front ring would be, slide the motor mount in about halfway, force more epoxy inside the airframe from the back then push the motor mount in the full amount. This would build up epoxy in front of the front ring and also in front of the rear ring.
I and many other people install motor mount assemblies that way all the time. You stand the rocket up after inserting the motor mount so the glue settles down against the CRs, forming natural fillets.
If a person wanted maximum strength in this situation I would recommend gluing the fins to the motor mount tube, slotting the airframe for the fins, then you could build up glue fillets to the motor mount and also to the airframe.
Also what people do regularly when the strength it adds is needed, whether for the fins themselves or for the MMT or both.
 
In the end what I have done is change the BT to one of 6mm OD so that now I have 8mm from ID of BT to OD of MMT. Do you consider this enough for a regular shock cord attachement with an I bolt threaded through the forward centering ring? I think it still may be not enough. Would you recommend me going for a larger diameter BT? I'm concerned about the increase in diameter because of the drag it generates in comparison with the motor's impulse.
 
If not, I could also use this method. Sticking the shock cord to the MMT (either through the forward centering ring or not) with epoxy. Anyway, I'm scared of the only 1mm in thickness of the MMT... I don't know what is the usual thickness for those but I'm afraid of mine breaking or bending. Do you recommend to get one with more thickness (maybe something like 1,5mm) ?
 
What motor(s) are you considering? Remember, no matter what forces are on the rocket, the motor tube will never see more than the motor's maximum thrust. Imagine holding your rocket nose down and placing a weight across the aft opening of the motor tube which weighs the same as the motor's maximum thrust.

Just for example, for something like a CTI I566 (38 mm, three grain Vmax propellant) that means putting a 65 kg weight on it. For their I55 (also 38 mm, also three grain, Mellow propellant) it's under 7 kg. So you really need to pick your motor before making these sorts of major decisions.
 
Well, OK, the motor tube can see more than the maximum motor thrust in the special circumstance of sudden deceleration in a particular orientation. I stand corrected. But I should say that, in said circumstance, there are bigger things to worry about.
 
Hey, look what I found!

Look at Figure 9. The top row of the table is for cardboard tube. The tests were done with a different size tube than what you'r using, but the first column, maximum compressive stress, should be pretty much scalable. So for 38 mm ID and 1 mm thickness, you have 77 mm2, which gives you a maximum load of 847 N. Knock some off for design margin and you can judge for yourself what the maximum peak thrust you'd like to apply to that. If you cut it by half, about 425 N peak thrust, you've got lots of choices in 38 mm motors.
 
Last edited:
What motor(s) are you considering? Remember, no matter what forces are on the rocket, the motor tube will never see more than the motor's maximum thrust. Imagine holding your rocket nose down and placing a weight across the aft opening of the motor tube which weighs the same as the motor's maximum thrust.
Actually, the motor tube would never "see" a motor's maximum thrust, unless the rocket was restrained from moving.

Dave F.
 
If not, I could also use this method. Sticking the shock cord to the MMT (either through the forward centering ring or not) with epoxy. Anyway, I'm scared of the only 1mm in thickness of the MMT... I don't know what is the usual thickness for those but I'm afraid of mine breaking or bending. Do you recommend to get one with more thickness (maybe something like 1,5mm) ?
If you want to epoxy the shock to the motor mount tube, be sure that it extends down to a point where the tube is "supported" by the motor case.
Typical HPR cardboard motor tube, for H to K motors, is 1 to 1.5mm thick.

1.0 mm is plenty for G motors.
Alex is concerned about the tube failing, if he glued the shock cord to it, when the deployment shock loads are transferred through the shock cord.

Dave F.
 
Back
Top