CTI 38mm CATO Report

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As far as I know, we did not get any reaction from the dealer, we still have 6 of these reloads, and do not know what to do with them.

A spool or saucer design might be impressive and still remain safe, If you can design something that can have an open top to the motor tube/s and be fairly draggy it should either fly ok or just give a stage style firework display still on the pad.
Both options would be impressive to watch without risking damage to a rocket.
 
A spool or saucer design might be impressive and still remain safe, If you can design something that can have an open top to the motor tube/s and be fairly draggy it should either fly ok or just give a stage style firework display still on the pad.
Both options would be impressive to watch without risking damage to a rocket.

I'd be pretty uncomfortable with this, especially on Skidmark motors. On all 4 of the CATOs I saw, the rocket got several feet off the pad and then blew out, throwing flame forward while falling to the ground. If that was a sparky, it'd be throwing sparks and flames in a random direction, likely torching anything nearby. I guess if you launched on salt flats or a frozen lake where there's nothing flammable for hundreds of yards around and people are well back. Even so, sounds pretty sketchy.
 
A spool or saucer design might be impressive and still remain safe, If you can design something that can have an open top to the motor tube/s and be fairly draggy it should either fly ok or just give a stage style firework display still on the pad.
Both options would be impressive to watch without risking damage to a rocket.

We did a spool.....lit it on fire and turned it into a flaming pile of melted plastic.
 
Ok, I was considering the few CATO'S that I have seen where once the forward closure blew there wasn't enough pressure to do much damage, I suppose with a sparky it could be a totally different beast and I hadn't considered the spool melting. Oh well, better to ask a stupid question than to make a stupid mistake.
Hopefully you can get them replaced.
 
What is there to say? I have warrantied x number of this failure, from date codes all over the place. The issue (if I remember right) was the bond between the potting and the closure isn't holding up. This allows the motor to blow by and torches out the front closure.

That's exactly what I saw.


[emoji1010] Steve Shannon [emoji1010]
 
I think the same thing happened at Bong at the May launch. Some how the motor got loose from the rocket and was spinning through the air flames coming out both ends. Its was a sparky never did find out what size it was. The worst part was the motor landed about 10' from the 1st row of parked cars
 
Well, you guys are making me nervous, I have H123 Skidmark dated Nov 04 2015 in my motor stash. I will launch it LDRS in an older rocket and see how it goes. Not much to burn on the Lucern Lakebed.
 
Well, you guys are making me nervous, I have H123 Skidmark dated Nov 04 2015 in my motor stash. I will launch it LDRS in an older rocket and see how it goes. Not much to burn on the Lucern Lakebed.

I've seen literally hundreds of CTI motors fly and I can only remember less than a handful of catos.
 
Well, you guys are making me nervous, I have H123 Skidmark dated Nov 04 2015 in my motor stash. I will launch it LDRS in an older rocket and see how it goes. Not much to burn on the Lucern Lakebed.


I don't like the pro38 design personally. But to be honest the odds of one blowing are very very slim. Pull the nozzle off, make sure the liner seats all the way in, and lightly screw the nozzle in making sure not to cross thread it...and don't take it apart once you build it. You'll be fine.
 
Bummer on your certification flights. Not good when that happens.

Although I don't know if it would have helped in your situation, but there are some things that I do to try and avoid these sorts of motor issues. One thing I do for flights with electronics is to remove the black powder and pot the little chamber with epoxy. Actually, I stick a penny in there first, and then epoxy over the top of it (if you find such a rocket, it's probably mine, so just call me). FWIW, I've never had a failure through the ejection charge area with this modification.

Another thing that I do on Pro54 motors is to glue in the forward closure. Gases can get past the seal at the top of the case. According to CTI, there was a problem with variable liner dimensions which caused the seal not to be tight enough. The problem was apparently fixed, but there are likely still affected motors out and around. The problem shows up as a bulged case at the joint between the liner and the forward closure, but sometimes the case burns through at that point and/or the top of the case just fails. The pics below show what this problem looks like, and an example of a catastrophic failure is at 1:40 in the video.

https://youtu.be/G2BZIpa89lw

When I glue in the closure, I apply glue over the lip (and O-ring if there is one) and try to essentially form a fillet between the bottom of the closure and the liner down to the top of the upper grain. I'm just trying to slow down the gases from getting to the joint just a little so that the gases don't get by during the burn itself. I actually glue in both closures, but it is the top of the motor where the problem typically occurs. I've passed this trick onto many fliers, and I'm not aware of any failures that have occurred on a motor modified this way. I don't know how this would affect a warranty replacement, but my objective is not to have to find out.

Jim

Alex Case.jpg

Burned O ring.jpg

Jims Case.jpg
 
That sort of negates the advantage of cti reloads the fact that you simply slide them in and fly...bummer...
 
That sort of negates the advantage of cti reloads the fact that you simply slide them in and fly...
FWIW, I've flown a lot of Pro54 and seen this or a similar problem only a couple of times -- once on a K300 long-burn and once on a K740 C-star. CTI replaced the case both times. Of course, we have no way to know how often this happens or if it favors particular propellant loads -- C-star seems prone to expose problems. I'd take CTI at their word that they've fixed the problem unless you run across an older reload. (And this is unrelated to the specific Pro38 problem in this thread, which seems to be defective delay grain bonding or a bad batch of adhesive.)
 
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That sort of negates the advantage of cti reloads the fact that you simply slide them in and fly...bummer...

I like to take the "preventative maintenance" steps that I mentioned at home. But both can be done at a launch with 5-minute epoxy. You can take some epoxy along with you to the launch if you're buying motors there - or not - it's your choice.

Jim
 
I have flew a lot of Pro54s and have never glued the FWC. The only failure I have had was a rear case burn through. Not sure if I pinched the o ring or what happened.
 
I can't find a photo of the F51 CATO results, but they are exactly as OP describes: the whole front is missing, and instead of a 1/16" touch hole you see a hole as wide as the inner lip of the front closure.

Here's a video of the accident flight, and a link to a thread with more photos: https://www.rocketryforum.com/showt...eas-for-managing-CG-shift&p=693104#post693104

Ari.

[video=youtube;W05SNuZzTL0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W05SNuZzTL0[/video]

IMG_3019.jpg

Screen Shot 2014-04-05 at 11.21.25 PM.png
 
Similar problem for me this January at MDRA. In my case it was an I195-Red Lightning. Booster and shock cord torched (since rebuilt). Since all my rockets have redundant dual deploy I'm going to try Jim's penny trick next time. I think it would have saved this rocket.


Black Brant CATO Booster small.jpgBlack Brant I195 CATO.jpg

Don
 
I'd be pretty uncomfortable with this, especially on Skidmark motors. On all 4 of the CATOs I saw, the rocket got several feet off the pad and then blew out, throwing flame forward while falling to the ground. If that was a sparky, it'd be throwing sparks and flames in a random direction, likely torching anything nearby. I guess if you launched on salt flats or a frozen lake where there's nothing flammable for hundreds of yards around and people are well back. Even so, sounds pretty sketchy.

We had enough distance between the rocket and the people. The motor burnt through immedietly after liftoff, so it happened only a few meters from the ground.


But we should make a distinction between failure-modes: The 4 abovementioned and my example (3x H123SK) was a burnthrough of the delaygrain, no liner failure or something like that.
In these motors, the delay grain seems to burn faster than the propellant itself, and we found here that they all come from a few batches from a small time period.
I saw a lot of CTI motors, and very seldom a failure, they are in general very safe to handle for me.
But on this event we had 3 failures in a row, all the same motor, all the same failure, all the same batch.
The H225 has the same failure, also in a row, a batch made 9 days later than our motors. Could be possible, that they all used the same delay grain mix.

That is not normal, and may show a general fault in these motors from these batches, or more precise, a fault in the delay mixture in these reloads.
Maybe they used normal propellant for that instead of a slow burning mix. **** happens.
I personally would not use a motor from september/october 2015 until this is investigated.

Louis
 
If you have a problem with any rocket motor, you need to do several things ASAP after the event.

Make a notation of the details of the motor. Motor label information includes manufacturer, motor label info (impulse range, average thrust, and delay), and the lot number or date of manufacture. The motor diameter, number of grains and propellant type are also useful. Please jot down a description summarizing what happened.

Log into Motorcato.org and fill out the on-line form. This informs NAR, TRA and CAR that you had a problem with a motor.

Contact your dealer and report the motor failure whether or not the motor was under warrantee or not. (For Estes motors, call or e-mail Estes customer service instead of contacting the dealer.)

Go to the manufacturers website's contact us page and report the motor failure to them regardless of whether or not it says to contact your dealer. This informs the manufacturer just incase the dealer does not.

Bob
 
At the weekend launch I was just at, there were 4 CATOs on 38mm Cesaroni motors. Three of them (all within about 3 hours) were 2G H225s, and one (the next day) was a 3G I, I believe either the I175 or I345. Two of the H's took out L1 cert rockets, and the I finished the job on one that had been rebuilt overnight. One of the H's and the I will get MESS reports. All three H's had date codes within a month of 9/1/15. I don't know about the I.

On all four motors, the rocket got about 10 feet off the pad when the nose cone blew off and a wide flame came out the top of the rocket. The motors were not ejected. The recovered motors had a ~1" diameter hole where the delay grain used to be. No touch hole for the ejection charge or anything. It looked like the entire assembly was burned out at the diameter of the glue ring that holds the delay grain in. Initial looks said that there was a little more burning on one side, so maybe the burn-through started there. The forward o-ring was intact and undamaged.

That said, people in our group flew 38mm 2G red and blue with no issues, and I flew a 5G pink with no motor issues. I'll get pictures of the damage as soon as I can.

If four motors failed, there need to be four MESS reports, one for each failed motor. The purpose for the MESS report is to provide a statistical sampling.


[emoji1010] Steve Shannon [emoji1010]
 
If four motors failed, there need to be four MESS reports, one for each failed motor. The purpose for the MESS report is to provide a statistical sampling.


[emoji1010] Steve Shannon [emoji1010]


All four motors having MESS reports filed would be nice, I think Boatgeek is saying that he only knows of the one flier who is going to file the MESS reports. The launch we were at when the 4 failures happened was a fairly large launch (over a hundred or so fliers) they had 471 flights over 3 days of which 178 were HPR (according to the newsletter). We all agree that the reports are important to file, but sometimes getting people to file them is a waste of effort since they do it if they want too.
 
All four motors having MESS reports filed would be nice, I think Boatgeek is saying that he only knows of the one flier who is going to file the MESS reports. The launch we were at when the 4 failures happened was a fairly large launch (over a hundred or so fliers) they had 471 flights over 3 days of which 178 were HPR (according to the newsletter). We all agree that the reports are important to file, but sometimes getting people to file them is a waste of effort since they do it if they want too.


Myself and Rich A. have both submitted reports to www.motorcato.org. Not sure if it will result in anything but I agree the information is good to get out there.

Kenny
 
Once a MESS report is filed what happens next? Is the info passed on to the motor maker? Or does info just set there until there a number of failures happen? If a MESS report is filed and nothing happens with it why file one?
 
This happened to a friend of mine in January, and a different friend managed to capture the entire event in slow motion. Our best guess is that it was a problem with the adhesive used to hold the delay grain rather than the delay grain itself. If you watch the video, you can see that the forward closure failed almost instantaneously. I don't think even Vmax burns that quickly.

The video (title is wrong by the way, it was an I180 skid): [video=youtube;VD-tm5wdqQg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VD-tm5wdqQg[/video]

Here's a picture of the forward closure after the burn:CTI_forward_closure_failure.jpg It looks very similar to the forward closure pic posted earlier. And yes, he did submit a MESS report.
 
This happened to a friend of mine in January, and a different friend managed to capture the entire event in slow motion. Our best guess is that it was a problem with the adhesive used to hold the delay grain rather than the delay grain itself. If you watch the video, you can see that the forward closure failed almost instantaneously. I don't think even Vmax burns that quickly.

The video (title is wrong by the way, it was an I180 skid): [video=youtube;VD-tm5wdqQg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VD-tm5wdqQg[/video]

Here's a picture of the forward closure after the burn:View attachment 293150 It looks very similar to the forward closure pic posted earlier. And yes, he did submit a MESS report.

In May 2013, CTI had a problem with casting tubes that had "an oily substance" on them, which led to a recall. (Source motorcato.org website).
What if that happened to the delay casting tubes?
 
Once a MESS report is filed what happens next? Is the info passed on to the motor maker? Or does info just set there until there a number of failures happen? If a MESS report is filed and nothing happens with it why file one?

As long as they hide the results from the public, I refuse to file them. Be open and honest with the reports, or they are useless to me.

Say what you want, but it's a broken system meant only to protect the motor manufactures, not promote safety. If it was about safety, they'd post the reports and let us make our own choices. See- Estes E series motors. BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM "nothing to see here folks....."
 
As long as they hide the results from the public, I refuse to file them. Be open and honest with the reports, or they are useless to me.

Say what you want, but it's a broken system meant only to protect the motor manufactures, not promote safety. If it was about safety, they'd post the reports and let us make our own choices. See- Estes E series motors. BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM "nothing to see here folks....."

+1, I like to see stats, since motors with abnormal tendencies towards catos I would not buy ala Estes E9 motors are one example, anything with an AT RMS EZ delay being another.
 

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