Cattle-killing rockets?

[Steve Shannon]

Chat.GPT:

Feeding excessive amounts of fresh alfalfa to cows can potentially be harmful and even lead to health issues, although it might not necessarily result in immediate death. Alfalfa is a nutritious forage, but it can have some drawbacks when fed in excess or under certain conditions:

1. Bloat: One of the primary concerns when feeding cows excessive fresh alfalfa is the risk of bloat. Bloat is a condition where gas accumulates in the cow's rumen (the first compartment of the stomach) and causes the stomach to distend. This can be life-threatening if not treated promptly.
2. Nutrient imbalances: Alfalfa is rich in protein and calcium, which are essential nutrients for cows. However, too much of these nutrients can disrupt the cow's overall diet balance and may lead to health problems such as urinary calculi (bladder stones) due to excess calcium intake.
3. Obesity: Feeding cows excessive alfalfa can lead to overconsumption of calories, potentially causing obesity and related health issues.

To avoid these problems, it's essential to provide cows with a balanced diet that includes a variety of forages and supplemental feed, if necessary. Consult with a veterinarian or livestock nutritionist to determine the appropriate feeding regimen for your cows based on their specific needs, age, weight, and production goals. It's crucial to monitor your cows' health closely and make adjustments to their diet as needed to prevent issues related to overfeeding or nutrient imbalances.

Do the same lookup for “grass tetany”.

 

[Frederocket]

Rockets went up, rockets landed safely, cows reacted negatively. Using context clues, we could assume the rockets landed near cows, and they didn't like it. Thus the directive to not land near livestock...Do we need exact distances for where the rockets landed in relation to the cows? Wind speed and directions? lol

In Red would be helpful...

 

[Art Upton]

They then broke down the fence when one of them said, "Hey over here; Fresh Alfalfa"

Do the same lookup for “grass tetany”.

By Your Command:


Grass tetany, also known as grass staggers or hypomagnesemia, is a metabolic disorder that primarily affects ruminant animals such as cattle, sheep, and goats. It occurs when these animals have a deficiency of magnesium (Mg) in their bloodstream. Magnesium is an essential mineral required for various physiological processes in the body, including nerve function and muscle contraction.

Grass tetany typically occurs in grazing animals during the spring and early summer when they are consuming lush, rapidly growing forage, such as young, green grasses. These types of forage can have low levels of magnesium, and the problem is exacerbated when other factors come into play, such as low magnesium absorption due to high levels of potassium and nitrogen in the diet.

The condition can manifest with symptoms such as muscle tremors, incoordination, twitching, staggering, and, in severe cases, convulsions and death. Affected animals may also exhibit behavioral changes, such as restlessness and aggression.

To prevent and manage grass tetany, farmers and livestock owners can take several measures, including:

1. Providing supplemental magnesium in the form of mineral supplements or fortified feed.
2. Ensuring animals have access to a balanced diet with adequate magnesium levels.
3. Avoiding abrupt dietary changes, especially transitioning animals from dry forage to lush, high-potassium forage.
4. Monitoring animals closely during periods of risk, such as early spring when green grasses are prevalent.
5. Managing pastures to reduce potassium and increase magnesium content in the forage.

Prompt treatment is essential if an animal develops grass tetany. Treatment typically involves the administration of intravenous or intramuscular magnesium solutions to rapidly raise the magnesium levels in the bloodstream.

Preventing grass tetany through proper dietary management and supplementation is crucial for maintaining the health and well-being of grazing ruminant animals.

 

[loopy]

In Red would be helpful...

Pretty hard to get since cows are autonomous creatures that tend to move. Especially when startled. Unless there was someone very close to where it landed as it landed, there's no way to know that information.

 

[Art Upton]

Pretty hard to get since cows are autonomous creatures that tend to move. Especially when startled. Unless there was someone very close to where it landed as it landed, there's no way to know that information.

perhaps the boy that left the gate open could tell us?? Nah ,, I ruled out that reason...

 

[NateB]

The rocket activity probably had only a tangential impact on the cow deaths. However, the farmer bullied the section/NAR into restitution. To keep the peace, and to keep the access to a valuable launch site, the NAR paid up. Personally, I am OK with this, as a cost of doing business.

Another club I was part of had 2 incidents involving property damage to neighbors.

#1. Was relatively inexpensive and unlikely to have been caused by our club activities. However the complaint was made to the club with damages. The club body quickly voted to pay it to keep the peace.

#2. Involved a small fire and crop damage. The cause was obvious. The farmer was understandably upset and all invovled parties were discussing what would happen next. The club immediately offered full compensation for the affected portion of the field and filed an insurance claim. The farmer was expecting push back that didn't occur and just wanted compensation for the loss profit.

Good communication prevented lossing property to use, then you learn from the failure to prevent it from happening again.

 

[Art Upton]

Another club I was part of had 2 incidents involving property damage to neighbors.

#1. Was relatively inexpensive and unlikely to have been caused by our club activities. However the complaint was made to the club with damages. The club body quickly voted to pay it to keep the peace.

#2. Involved a small fire and crop damage. The cause was obvious. The farmer was understandably upset and all invovled parties were discussing what would happen next. The club immediately offered full compensation for the affected portion of the field and filed an insurance claim. The farmer was expecting push back that didn't occur and just wanted compensation for the loss profit.

Good communication prevented lossing property to use, then you learn from the failure to prevent it from happening again.

What was the obvious cause that was not caused by your club ?

 

[NateB]

#2 was a small fire in a field accidentally caused by the club. It was witnessed and put out as quick as it could, but still resulted in damage. That damage was paid for as it should have been and all parties ended up being happy. I think the farmer was more worried there would be a fight about it.

#1 was property damage that occurred several miles away and was most likely falsely attributed to us. It wasnt enough to deal with insurance and the body of the club voted to be neighborly and send a check to keep the peace.

 

[Steve Shannon]

By Your Command:

I apologize. I should have said please. Thanks for doing this.

 

[rcktnut]

I started a thread in the NAR member forum asking for more info. Will see what comes up.

 

[loopy]

perhaps the boy that left the gate open could tell us?? Nah ,, I ruled out that reason...

That’s actually another reason they may not be saying much…To protect the person that left the gate open…

But again - a startled cow isn’t going to hang out next to whatever started it.

 

[Buckeye]

That's such "bullshit".

Let's not blame the farmer @Buckeye . He let folks fly on his property.

Yes, that's a fair point. "Bullying" was not a good way to say it. In other words, the cattle-owner had the leverage in the situation, even if the rocket activities were not 100% at fault and there was blame to go around. After reading @NateB comments, the NAR probably jumped in quickly to settle the claim even if the root cause for cattle deaths was sketchy. To keep the peace.

 

[CalebJ]

Accidental post

 

[CalebJ]

Yes, that's a fair point. "Bullying" was not a good way to say it. In other words, the cattle-owner had the leverage in the situation, even if the rocket activities were not 100% at fault and there was blame to go around. After reading @NateB comments, the NAR probably jumped in quickly to settle the claim even if the root cause for cattle deaths was sketchy. To keep the peace.

 

[bjphoenix]

They then broke down the fence when one of them said, "Hey over here; Fresh Alfalfa"

Some aspects of the story sound a bit suspicious. I've known of past instances where a club was operating on a farmer's land, maybe with a rental agreement or maybe just for free, when the landowner decided to end the arrangement and made up some damage allegations to make the club leave and/or pay up.

 

[Frederocket]

Pretty hard to get since cows are autonomous creatures that tend to move. Especially when startled. Unless there was someone very close to where it landed as it landed, there's no way to know that information.

Wow, I guess you are suggesting only the cows would know and not the individuals attending the launch..

 

[loopy]

Wow, I guess you are suggesting only the cows would know and not the individuals attending the launch..

I'm suggesting that unless you are standing close to the cows or the rocket landing, you won't know how far it landed from the cow. If a cow is spooked, it moves. Or...it moooooves.... So, when you get to where the rocket is and the cow has moved, you can measure how far the rocket is from the cow NOW, but not where the cow was when the rocket landed. Visual obstacles can prohibit getting a good idea of the event as hit happens from a distance. Even if the view is not obstructed, it's hard to tell. From my experience and what I tell people looking for their rockets - it's always about 10 yards past where you think it landed...they walk another 30-50 feet, and there's the rocket.
So - yeah...unless you're close to where the incident happens WHEN it happens, you're not going to know how far away it landed. Unless you actually see it land on top of the cow...then you'd have a pretty good idea.

 

[Art Upton]

I apologize. I should have said please. Thanks for doing this.

Ha, no worries, "By your command" is a Cylon Phrase from Battle Star Galactica

 

[Frederocket]

I'm suggesting that unless you are standing close to the cows or the rocket landing, you won't know how far it landed from the cow. If a cow is spooked, it moves. Or...it moooooves.... So, when you get to where the rocket is and the cow has moved, you can measure how far the rocket is from the cow NOW, but not where the cow was when the rocket landed. Visual obstacles can prohibit getting a good idea of the event as hit happens from a distance. Even if the view is not obstructed, it's hard to tell. From my experience and what I tell people looking for their rockets - it's always about 10 yards past where you think it landed...they walk another 30-50 feet, and there's the rocket.
So - yeah...unless you're close to where the incident happens WHEN it happens, you're not going to know how far away it landed. Unless you actually see it land on top of the cow...then you'd have a pretty good idea.

It appears there has been subject content drift.. If I remember, we were talking about what really happened and the lack of complete information details from NAR regarding the incident.. OTH, regardless of that being said, your statement in this post is mostly true, regardless of the drift..

 

[gldknght]

Exactly. I don't think any of us are clammering to know the details of the settlement, but rather "how is this incident rocketry-related, and how do we prevent it in the future?" There is a big difference between somebody accidentally leaving a gate open and a cattle stampede caused by a model rocket parachute landing.

The rocketry activity apparently had the permission of the landowner whose cattle were "sharing" the site, and NAR safety codes were followed (else the insurance would not apply). Then the President declares that "Rockets should not land among livestock on or adjacent to a launch site." Why? ...

And how in the world are we supposed to keep our rockets from landing in the midst, or adjacent to, a herd of cows? They move around. Slight variations in wind speed or direction can cause somewhat unpredictable landing spots.

Obviously, cattle gates should always be left as they are found, whether open or closed. If it was a gate issue, why not simply say so? Why the comment made by our president?

 

[jsdemar]

My source told me a rocketeer entered a pasture to retrieve a rocket and left the gate open. The cows got out and went into a field of green alfalfa. The cows ate the alfalfa and it created alcohol when it reacted with their stomach acid. A vet was called, but he wasn't able to save all the cattle.

This is exactly what happened. Someone didn't follow the site rules and left a gate open. One of our club members was on RSO duty at NSL when the farmer came over to talk about the incident.

End of thread.

 

[Art Upton]

"The Time has come to do what we need to do at this time , because the Time is right to do so..."

 

[rcktnut]

Well I got an answer on the NAR members forum and here it is:

On behalf of the NAR board executive committee: Some rockets, launched appropriately, landed near some cattle in a neighboring field. Some cattle spooked and ran through a fence into a nearby alfalfa field. A number of the cows ate too much alfalfa and foundered, unfortunately, causing them to die. A number however, were also rescued by a local vet. Obviously, the NAR always tries to be a good neighbor. Unfortunately, sometimes unforeseen things happen, which is why we have insurance. We very much appreciate the understanding and cooperation of the farmer involved as well as the fine work done by our insurance representative.

 

[jsdemar]

Well I got an answer on the NAR members forum and here it is:

On behalf of the NAR board executive committee: Some rockets, launched appropriately, landed near some cattle in a neighboring field. Some cattle spooked and ran through a fence into a nearby alfalfa field. A number of the cows ate too much alfalfa and foundered, unfortunately, causing them to die. A number however, were also rescued by a local vet. Obviously, the NAR always tries to be a good neighbor. Unfortunately, sometimes unforeseen things happen, which is why we have insurance. We very much appreciate the understanding and cooperation of the farmer involved as well as the fine work done by our insurance representative.

Maybe that version helps allow the insurance to cover the incident. The gate was left open. There was no spooking by rockets.

 

[rcktnut]

Well I got an answer on the NAR members forum and here it is:

On behalf of the NAR board executive committee: Some rockets, launched appropriately, landed near some cattle in a neighboring field. Some cattle spooked and ran through a fence into a nearby alfalfa field. A number of the cows ate too much alfalfa and foundered, unfortunately, causing them to die. A number however, were also rescued by a local vet. Obviously, the NAR always tries to be a good neighbor. Unfortunately, sometimes unforeseen things happen, which is why we have insurance. We very much appreciate the understanding and cooperation of the farmer involved as well as the fine work done by our insurance representative.

Maybe that version helps allow the insurance to cover the incident. The gate was left open. There was no spooking by rockets.

And this thread continues: I'll be accepting the answer I got from the NAR. I really did not think that cows/cattle spooked that easy but:

Cows can also be spooked by seeing something they’ve never seen before, like balloons or even flapping paper, so be wary when conducting novel activities around cows.

 

[Buckeye]

This is exactly what happened. Someone didn't follow the site rules and left a gate open. One of our club members was on RSO duty at NSL when the farmer came over to talk about the incident.

End of thread.

Hardly! The thread is getting really good, now! What you claim is not what the NAR President and NAR Board are saying. Somebody is not telling the truth.

Maybe that version helps allow the insurance to cover the incident. The gate was left open. There was no spooking by rockets.

Insurance fraud, too?

So, Cowgate (see what I did there?) and the hotel damage both occurred at NSL? What a PR nightmare for NAR. No wonder the Pres is fumbling the communications.

 

[jsdemar]

So, Cowgate (see what I did there?) and the hotel damage both occurred at NSL? What a PR nightmare for NAR. No wonder the Pres is fumbling the communications.

I think both issues are settled and I don't see any evidence of a PR problem with the general public or the NAR membership. A few people here have too much time on their hands. Go build/fly some rockets.

 

[Art Upton]

FYI, John H. is a very respectable Business man ... Lets not pile on him without real facts. He holds his own as did Ted and Trip as NAR presidents...

EDIT: those are the NAR presidents that got their L3 certs.

I was reading Trip's articles in newsletters and magazines in my 12-15 years of age in early 70s.

The best point of my Rocketry was not my L3 cert, but being the NAR TAP [L3CC] for Trips L3 flight signoff .... the first NAR president to do an L3 and probably even L2 before that...

 

[SolarYellow]

My source told me a rocketeer entered a pasture to retrieve a rocket and left the gate open. The cows got out and went into a field of green alfalfa. The cows ate the alfalfa and it created alcohol when it reacted with their stomach acid. A vet was called, but he wasn't able to save all the cattle.

This is exactly what happened. Someone didn't follow the site rules and left a gate open. One of our club members was on RSO duty at NSL when the farmer came over to talk about the incident.

End of thread.

Well I got an answer on the NAR members forum and here it is:

On behalf of the NAR board executive committee: Some rockets, launched appropriately, landed near some cattle in a neighboring field. Some cattle spooked and ran through a fence into a nearby alfalfa field. A number of the cows ate too much alfalfa and foundered, unfortunately, causing them to die. A number however, were also rescued by a local vet. Obviously, the NAR always tries to be a good neighbor. Unfortunately, sometimes unforeseen things happen, which is why we have insurance. We very much appreciate the understanding and cooperation of the farmer involved as well as the fine work done by our insurance representative.

You have the actual story and the official story. The problem I see is that the official story is misleading as to the nature of the cow's movement and leaves out the actual failure/error that allowed the incident to happen.

"Some cattle spooked and ran through a fence..."

doesn't deliver the same message or lesson, nor indicate the same type of preventive measures as,

"...left the gate open."

In particular, the NAR language implies the cows broke down an intact fence. That's a very different situation than cows deciding to pass through a gate that was left open, even if they do the cow galumphing thing and sorta trot/run through the gate.

I wasn't there, but I can certainly see cows getting it in their heads to go through an open gate without having to have a rocket land among/near them. If the gate was left open, they may have decided to go through it with or without the rocket landing near them. On the other hand, maybe they were minding their own business and continuing to graze until a strange person walked in amongst them and they decided to leave the area, and also saw the open gate to the alfalfa field.

So we're all sitting around typing six pages into the web talking about it. I think the reason some of us are this interested/concerned is that we recognize we have little control over where our rockets come down, and it may not be in our power to prevent them coming down near some cows, if there are any around. And since launching MPR/HPR rockets works better in rural/agricultural environments, there are often some around where many of us launch.

It seems pretty clear that the solution to this particular problem would have been simply to leave gates how you find them. Not difficult, something any of us, or a ten year old child, can do. But the message from NAR doesn't present that simple solution, so we've all been sitting around wondering how to keep this from happening to us.

So yeah, NAR could be a LOT more helpful by making their messaging reflect the actual problem and thereby also communicating how to prevent it from happening again, anywhere and everywhere.

 

[FredA]

So yeah, NAR could be a LOT more helpful by making their messaging reflect the actual problem and thereby also communicating how to prevent it from happening again, anywhere and everywhere.

AMEN - stop beating around the bush and spit it out.