Build Thread: High Performance M Motor

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If you're going to turn down the outside anyhow, you don't need the wheels. Just use the brass inserts. Your machines should have some suggestions, too.

Do not use brass buttons on aluminum with a steady or follow rest. They are incompatible from a hardness standpoint and the aluminum will pickup and gall.

Anthony J. Cesaroni
President/CEO
Cesaroni Technology/Cesaroni Aerospace
https://www.cesaronitech.com/
(941) 360-3100 x101 Sarasota
(905) 887-2370 x222 Toronto
 
As the surface of aluminum is actually thin aluminum oxide anyway, I wouldn't believe that anodizing changes the chemical surface properties for bonding very much however it's usually several orders of magnitude more porous on a microscopic scale, that's why you can color it after you anodize. I still would recommend coating the aluminum with a primer/inhibitor/insulator to enhance bonding, but I feel that the anodizing is useful if you're going to reload the motor casing many times. I'm pretty sure the military and commercial stuff are one use applications.

Bob

Bob,

That’s why you etch and de-smutt the aluminum prior to priming and bonding, to remove the oxide. A water break test with distilled H2O is done immediately and then a force dry. Unless the aluminum part to be bonded is held in an inert atmosphere, you have about a ½ hour to get the subsequent steps completed. Done properly, 5000+ psi shear bond lines with high temperature adhesives that will maintain that specification for many years are routine.

Anthony J. Cesaroni
President/CEO
Cesaroni Technology/Cesaroni Aerospace
https://www.cesaronitech.com/
(941) 360-3100 x101 Sarasota
(905) 887-2370 x222 Toronto
 
We've had good luck bonding carbon fiber to aluminum with a high-shear adhesive (e.g. Hysol) and a calibrated bondline thickness. The adhesive bears the load and separates the carbon fiber from the aluminum, thus mitigating the "battery" problem. Granted, we are using this method to bond an aluminum bulkhead into a carbon tube, while your design is the inverse. However, it's definitely possible to get the bond to hold up. We've hydrotested the joints to over 1000 psi in a 4" diameter with success, though we've been having some trouble keeping the carbon fiber cases from leaking. That's a whole 'nother ball of wax... :)

Looking forward to seeing the results. Where are you planning to static test?

David,
Can you tell me a bit more about your bond line? For instance, both tubes were prefabricated and then the Hysol was applied to one or both surfaces and the parts were mated...did you find any particular adhesive gap was best? Although this isn't exactly pertinent directly to my motor, It'd be nice to know how this has worked out for other people.

Also, regarding the hydrostatic testing, did you do this at school and if so, what sorts of barriers did you run into with faculty and stuff? I guess the question really extends to motor-experimentation as a whole... one of my professors is just about done getting an LEUP though we still have to convince the other professors that we wish to pursue motor-fabrication seriously...and not play around. Any suggestions?

We're planning to static test either in a new launch site that we are soon to acquire Claremont!!!! (woot!)... or in the desert somewhere. We have all the permissions for the "gravel pit" in Claremont (fire dept, ca fire marshall, police, cable airport, ontario airport, local faa) though we are still waiting on the regional FAA sign-off in Seattle. Technically, there is no motor size restriction on this site besides the california M motor thing (I assume that rule still exists) so I don't see why we can't use it for static tests (especially hydostatic tests). The location is a half-mile by half-mile square that has been dug down 200ft below the surrounding area... So awesome:cool:

The motor will be completed mid-Summer and we wish to fire it a few times at LDRS Research Days and perhaps fly it in a rocket. We have not thought about the rocket (at all!) so if anyone wants to "borrow the motor" for a flight I'd be up for that. And, of course, we may go to Balls and fire/fly it...though it will be a baby compared to the motors there.

What about the thermal cycling problems that may occur with the aluminum/CF composite? When heated the aluminum will have more thermal strain and a stress will be induced on the joint. Has this been a problem in the past?
 
David, are you using the wax method for filament winding? That is some tricky stuff. JPL tested 50 filament-wound CF pressure vessels that were rated for 5000 psi (for He) and all of them failed before 500 psi. For what I understand, it may have to do with non-uniform stress distribution so local fiber groups fail and move to the next group and those fail and so-on. I dunno.

Ball o wax...
 
For instance, both tubes were prefabricated and then the Hysol was applied to one or both surfaces and the parts were mated...did you find any particular adhesive gap was best?
Yes to all of the above... we fabricated the tube and bulkhead, then bond prepped & applied Hysol to the bulkhead surface, and finally cured the piece. The challenge was maintaining a consistent bondline thickness around the part. Hysol's shear strength is guaranteed for a certain thickness, no more, no less, and so we made extra efforts to keep everything concentric and ensure an even distribution of adhesive.

The important parts of the bond are the bondline thickness, and the bond prep. We use an acid etch method similar to that described by Anthony.

Also, regarding the hydrostatic testing, did you do this at school and if so, what sorts of barriers did you run into with faculty and stuff?
For hydrotests, we go out behind our lab building into the dumpster-bunker (you know... one of those cinder block-walled places that they keep dumpsters that looks like it could withstand nuclear war, sans roof) and test in there. There happens to be a hose hookup nearby, and our hydro pump isn't too heavy, so it's no big deal to carry around. Since there's very little energy involved if the part in question fails, we haven't had any issues hydrotesting on campus.

I guess the question really extends to motor-experimentation as a whole... one of my professors is just about done getting an LEUP though we still have to convince the other professors that we wish to pursue motor-fabrication seriously...and not play around. Any suggestions?
Get your California Pyrotechnic Operators license. You can start directly with a Class 2 license for working with solids, and then move later to a Class 1 license for liquid work. When firing, we operate under the supervision of multiple pyro ops at the MTA. And we document *everything*. This gives the impression that we are serious about what we do... and most of the time, we are!

Technically, there is no motor size restriction on this site besides the california M motor thing (I assume that rule still exists)
If you are operating under the rules for "experimental rockets/unlimited", to the best of my knowledge, there is no impulse limit. (*I might be wrong on this, but 19 CCR § 1010-1019 seems to agree with me). However, the ER/U rules are a bit stricter than for simple high power motor tests and flights. We've flown motors larger than the 2300 lb-sec M limit with no problems under ER/U.

What about the thermal cycling problems that may occur with the aluminum/CF composite? When heated the aluminum will have more thermal strain and a stress will be induced on the joint. Has this been a problem in the past?
We're still waiting to make it through an entire burn to find out ourselves :D It's an interesting challenge trying to prevent the case from leaking. I think we've got the problem licked, though, so we're gonna try again in May...

are you using the wax method for filament winding?... For what I understand, it may have to do with non-uniform stress distribution so local fiber groups fail and move to the next group and those fail and so-on. I dunno.
We convolute wind our tubes from unidirectional Cytec prepreg. Your theory about local failures seems to be correct based on our testing, however we have designed the tubing with such a safety margin that small failures of the fiber matrix are of little consequence to the pressure capabilities of the tube. During hydrotesting, we often hear the tubes creak a bit as assorted fibers fail; even testing the same section multiple times to over 2000 psi, we've yet to blow a tube up.
 
4" composite motor case tubes? If so you have got my attention. What type of case did your "O" motor utilize? If composite are you using CF/epoxy or a hybrid composite? If composite tube how does it compare weight wise to 6061 alloy? Phenolic liner?

Yes. I'm glad. The O motor on the TDK blog used an aluminum case, no big deal. It's carbon prepreg. Way lighter than 6061. Yes, and some other stuff I think I might get in trouble if I talked about.

The carbon case development is going on at the USCRPL blog: https://www.uscrpl.com/updates If my attention span were longer, I'd update it more often. (Ain't that the story of my life...)
 
Thanks David.

I'll look into the pyrotechnic operator's license.

Does anyone have experience with Pyropaint? I just purchased a pint of silicon carbide paint (for $83) to coat the inside of my graphite nozzle. The nozzle is going to be nice and contoured via CNC and I would like to make them multi-use. The coating will be applied while rotating to ensure a radially-equal distribution.

The specifications sheet says that it resists oxidation up to 2550 F and is designed for graphite to prevent oxidation and damage due to aluminum slag. It also, apparently, is thermally reflective...which should help with heat transfer to the graphite.

The problem is that we are running our motor hot on high metal content and while graphite can withstand 4000+F in an inert environment, its limitation in an oxidizing environment is 800 F.

Any experience with this stuff?
 
Does anyone have experience with Pyropaint? I just purchased a pint of silicon carbide paint (for $83) to coat the inside of my graphite nozzle. The nozzle is going to be nice and contoured via CNC and I would like to make them multi-use. The coating will be applied while rotating to ensure a radially-equal distribution.

The specifications sheet says that it resists oxidation up to 2550 F and is designed for graphite to prevent oxidation and damage due to aluminum slag. It also, apparently, is thermally reflective...which should help with heat transfer to the graphite.

The problem is that we are running our motor hot on high metal content and while graphite can withstand 4000+F in an inert environment, its limitation in an oxidizing environment is 800 F.

Any experience with this stuff?
I wouldn't bother with the coating. Graphite is good to ~5500F in a non-oxidizing environment which is what you should have if your maximizing your ISP because the exhaust should be fuel rich.

I've never seen aluminum slag damage a HPR graphite nozzle. In theory molten alumina can react with carbon to make aluminum and carbon dioxide, but in a small motor you can't trap molten alumina so it should be a non-issue.

It's very different than in a scramjet where you have an oxidizing environment and carbon goes away real quick however SiC is not the answer.

Bob
 
I wouldn't bother with the coating. Graphite is good to ~5500F in a non-oxidizing environment which is what you should have if your maximizing your ISP because the exhaust should be fuel rich.

I've never seen aluminum slag damage a HPR graphite nozzle. In theory molten alumina can react with carbon to make aluminum and carbon dioxide, but in a small motor you can't trap molten alumina so it should be a non-issue.

It's very different than in a scramjet where you have an oxidizing environment and carbon goes away real quick however SiC is not the answer.

Bob

Bob,
What you say makes sense. I'm a bit worried, however, about oxidizing radicals... not to mention throat erosion. I'd like the throat to maintain tolerance well throughout the burn and since the graphite I have is something like 12% porous (though I may impregnate it and bake it) I'm worried that the surface roughness will lead to enhanced erosion and increased friction factor.
 
Bob,
What you say makes sense. I'm a bit worried, however, about oxidizing radicals... not to mention throat erosion. I'd like the throat to maintain tolerance well throughout the burn and since the graphite I have is something like 12% porous (though I may impregnate it and bake it) I'm worried that the surface roughness will lead to enhanced erosion and increased friction factor.
Dave

Your working too hard. Your worrying too much.

The stuff you have is fine. That's the same grade https://www.aeroconsystems.com sells for nozzles. You can even buy it from https://www.mcmaster.com Machining it will close the pores especially if you polish it.

Your biggest challenge is trying to get the specific impulse out of the propellant. I'd make some small 29 or 38 test motors using standard parts such as https://www.aeroconsystems.com/motors/diy.htm or Loki, AMW casings and nozzles and see if the boron does anything. I'm guessing it won't do much.

Bob
 
Hey guys,
I just finished threading the motor tube and finishing the surface. It is very thin walled, as designed, and will be reinforced with the CF sleeve as previously mentioned.

The forward closure is nearing completion. It needs to be bored out a bit more and increased in depth a tenth of an inch or so.

Below are two recent pictures. One is the motor tube on its side with the forward closure and the other is standing up (w/ closure) next to an Aerotech 54/2560 casing.

Things to do:
Machine aft closure
Hydrostatic test "test piece" (miniature motor section with identical ends)
CF the motor tube
Waterjet insulator disks
Make propellant mandrels
Make grains

Photo0153b.jpg

Photo0154b.jpg
 
Hey guys-

So I successful did the carbon fiber reinforcement on the motor. There is a thin glass sleeve between the carbon fiber and aluminum. The aluminum was super-cleaned and sandblasted to increase bond surface area.

Some Physical Specs:
1000 psi nom, 1200 psi MEOP.
Nominal Alum wall thickness: 0.080 inch
Thread Relief wall thickness: 0.037 inch
Thread Type: 20 TPI, 10 count. 80% peak.
Nominal CF thickness: 0.035 inch
Length: 28.25 inch
ID: 3.000 inch

Performance Specs (as of last simulation):
N2600 (7%) or M2600 (108%). I think we're at 11000 Ns right now.
Isp: 254 sec
Volumetric Loading Factor: 0.94
"Graham Score": 0.853

Pictures attached...

View attachment BurnSim L.15 w.06 d.18 N5 L3.7 GS.8532.jpg

Photo 61.jpg

Photo 73.jpg

Photo 74.jpg
 
Just what you need another opinion....

I cant speak to the propellant but as far as the motor case, in a past life i worked on high pressure (9,000 psi working pressure) composite pressure vessels. Let me hit the issues one at a time, as a side note there is more than one way to solve ANY problem, here goes,

Prep of the surface, anodize followed by the correct primer will give you the best bond. One of the keys is to prime VERY SOON after anodize. Another key point is using the correct type of anodize, the typical 'car wheel' anodize will help with corrosion but not with the bond. Primer, i'm not sure what the West System primer is, i use a few primers from 3m that are designed to increase bond strength plus provide additional corrosion protection. Remember, the reason for the primer is to keep the freshly anodized surface ready for bond, if it wasn't for the corrosion issues you could skip the primer PROVIDED you go immediatly from anodize to overwrap.

Knurls = bad, A knurled surface isn't helping you, there are ways to mechanically lock things in but the knurled approach doesn't really help things.

Adhesives vs laminating resins vs wet infusion resins (filament winding - RTM), the resins used to wet out fibers for processes like winding are not good adhesives, they weren't designed to be, conversely bonding adhesives don't work out well for wetting out fibers. I think it was Anthony Cesseroni that pointed out a vail or scrim is used as the dielectric between the graphite and aluminum, this is frequently done using a supported film adhesive that acts as the bonding adhesive. A properly designed bond with the proper materials can reach 5,000 shear (double lap) hover, the B allowables are MUCH lower to account for variability and the true loading conditions.

Back in my pressure vessel days, we would design the proper mix of angles so the that shear stresses between the liner (metal part) and the casing (composite part) were low. This always required a combination of more than one angle, multiple layers, and the correct ratio of angles. We usually ended up with a hoop wrap (90 degrees) and an axial wrap, +/- 20 degrees or something like that.

Residual stresses / autofrettage. Back to the bond and the actual vs theoretical stress transfer. There are a bunch of little things that can reach out and bite you here. Fiber wrap, I was working a program for a Navy program, during testing the pressure vessels failed WAY before they should have, big problem! I took one and cut it apart just to see if someone was doing something dumb, The metal failed with a hoop crack at a strange angle, I had never seen a failure like this, I removed the metal and found that the tech that did the winding was having a hard time getting the first filament winding to start (getting the end of a wet noodle to hold in place), so what he did was to tie it off on one end, run a single strand across the metal and then start winding from the other end. This single group of fibers caused a bridge that all the other layers crossed causing the metal to fail at a significantly low number of cycles. The point, the orientation and quality of the wrap is critical.

When I use metal as a liner, I (almost) always autofrettage the liner. This process takes the metal beyond the yield point but less than failure point, pre-loading the composite and keeping the metal in COMPRESSION during loading. This step is important in getting multiple cycles out of the case. The autorettage step is done hydrostatic (gas + yield = bad) and during the step the residual strain is measured by weighing the vessel before and after while filled with water. This should be done at a pressure GREATER than the use pressure. If the weight is the same, there was no yield, the weight (volume) should be higher by a calculated amount. Subsequent test take the vessel to the use pressure plus a factor of safety, during these test the volume MUST BE THE SAME before and after or don't use it. This is called a hydro test.

Cure temperature, you need to use a resin with a Tg high enough that you don't cause it to fail AFTER a flight. You will find out you have a problem the next time you try to launch. Another issue here is the residual stressis after cure, A resin that vitrofies at a low temperature will have lower stresses even if it is cured to a higher temperature. My guess is that you should be curing with a temperature of 350 or so during your processing, look at the CTE difference before you pick your cure schedule, it is likely you will have a long cure at a lower temperature, and then a post cure at a higher one. Really depends on the resin, curing agent, and processing methods. We are not in the 'West System' category any more.

To get the benefit of the system you need to look at what the aluminum is contributing. In a pressure vessel the axial stresses are half what the hoop stresses are. For you application, a simple solution may be to design the aluminum to take all the axial loads and then add hoop wrapped composite to take the remaining hoop stresses. In this case the composite is fully contributing and so is the aluminum. It reduce the criticality of the bond as another benefit. You can hoop filament wind using a lathe without too much trouble.

Just wanted to touch on a few things, I'm sure there are a few other opinions....

Composite cases, simple and fun!!!
 
Wow, Kramer! A wealth of information!

I thoroughly read your reply. Great stuff.

I actually didn't anodize at all. In fact, I did the exact opposite. The surface was cleaned then sandblasted and within a few minutes epoxy was applied to the surface. A glass sleeve was applied between the carbon and aluminum to try to mitigate the galvanic potential problem. Sigh... now that you tell me all of your wisdom I'm not so sure in my process.

The resin we selected was contributed by PTM&W. I talked to one of the technical managers over there, told him what we were doing, and he recommended this particular laminating epoxy. It has an elevated cure and service temperature and has quite incredible mechanical properties and workability. They were kind enough to send us a quart for FREE! Yay PTM&W!

Regarding knurling: We ended up not going this. The largest mechanical alteration we did was the sandblasting, which in a previous flat-panel test showed incredible bond results. The surface adhesion was greater than the laminate strength...which is very strong for a laminate. The datasheet can be found here:
https://www.ptm-w.com/dynamicdata/data/docs/pt2846 bulletin.pdf

Next time, if I have the resources, I'll give some serious thought to the methods you've just described. For now, think of me as a poor student. ;)
 
oh shoot... one more thing:
our effective fiber angle is around 60 degrees. I believe optimal is about 63 degrees.... so shear stress will be minimal.
 
Couple of things,

The folks at PTMW are good people to work with, they should have gotten you 'appropriate materials' Call me and I can set you up with an oven for postcuring.

What you did want that bad (really), clean blast and then clean isn't a bad way to go if you QUICKLY put the adhesive on. The fiberglass sleeve should work ok.

I would look at a the autofrettage process to set the aluminum

Mike
 
Here is a nice higher-res pic of the reinforced motor tube with thermal liner inside. The linear is a 3" PML coupler tube.

Threads are (10) 20-pitch threads.

(sorry for the JPG compression...100kB limit)

See my website for even better photos.

DSCN1813b.jpg
 

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