Baltimore Bridge Collision and Collapse

The Rocketry Forum

Help Support The Rocketry Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
One aspect of the rebuild that bothers me is there appears to be limited liability placed upon the company that caused the disaster. Whether that be direct liability or through their insurance which also has limited liability. I'm a big fan of individual responsibility and if corporations are considered individuals in many situations then they should be held fully liable for the effects of their actions when an accident happens. Let the feds issue loans to not delay the rebuild but eventually hold those responsible fully liable and extract every dollar possible out of them. Probably won't cover the full cost of the accident and rebuild but at least they are bearing as much responsibility possible. If it bankrupts the company then so be it.
The ship's p&I coverage will pay something. Limited to the value of the ship and cargo, plus the oil spill and salvage coverage. But that will add up to $100M or more, plus the oil and salvage.

The idea of limited liability is so that if a ship runs aground, hits a shopping mall or bridge, etc, if they are held to unlimited liability above the value of the ship, they would simply abandon the ship where it sits and shut down the business. Now the locals are stuck with a bigger mess to clean up and no funds, but what they could recoup from salvage afterwards. By limiting the liability, the ship owner has a financial reason to stay engaged and get his ship back.

And I keep mentioning the "additional oil spill and salvage coverage." By international convention, ships have to have that as additional coverage, and in a certain amount (it's usually quite large) that is keyed to the size and type of the vessel. That's something that has evolved and grown since the mid-1990's post Exxon Valdez.
 
Before I retired I was an analyst in a cabinet level policy shop. When legislators visited the first question always seemed to be "but exactly how much money will this change bring to my district/state?" One factor that led to me to take an extremely early retirement.

To be fair though, when we opt to select out leaders through a political process it is unfair of us to complain when they act like politicians.
 
If this were in the WWII era, the channel would be open by now.
(By Dad was a Navy SeaBee in the Pacific).
I think the 4 bodies still in the wreckage might be a factor is aggressively clearing everything.
 
The idea of limited liability is so that if a ship runs aground, hits a shopping mall or bridge, etc, if they are held to unlimited liability above the value of the ship, they would simply abandon the ship where it sits and shut down the business. Now the locals are stuck with a bigger mess to clean up and no funds, but what they could recoup from salvage afterwards. By limiting the liability, the ship owner has a financial reason to stay engaged and get his ship back.
This makes some sense. They could expand the definition of "additional oil spill and salvage coverage" to include damage to infrastructure or the US require an infrastructure rider for ships entering US ports. That cost would be passed through to the consumer but ultimately we're going to pay for it anyway via tax dollars. A fee passed onto consumers seems more fair to me.
 
Last edited:
the bodies in the water are not part of why they are aggressively clearing the site.
1. they don't know where the bodies are
2. the first priority is to create better access to the site, then to open a limited channel
3. Recovery operations (finding bodies) are done slowly, methodically. Risk is minimized because you aren't going to rescue them. Why risk injury or death when you're just looking for bodies? This approach is different then when you have a live person to rescue, where you'll take many more risks. Even with property conservation (secondary goal) some risk is acceptable. Once you're beyond both, take your time and be safe.

trust me on this, i've got 43 years of firefighting experience, with significant command experience in JIC as the commander of the medical reserve corps as well.
 
That's a pretty good explanation of marine insurance, but he's still just scratching the surface. If you think he was getting into the weeds, you ain't seen nothing! Try taking a college course or two on the subject. Was not my idea of a good time. (No offense to those who live for insurance) Get yourself a good football helmet, with a facemask. You're going to pass out and face plant onto your desk at least once a week. It's dry and complicated and full of a lot of big words that I can't spell.

Anyway, I don't think General Average would apply here since cargo wasn't lost to successfully protect the ship. Cargo was simply lost or delayed. And yes, the ship owners and operators will be sued by many parties. But they are fighting for a piece of a pie. That pie, big as it may be, is limited in size though. The layers of P&I coverage are what pays for the salvage and oil spill coverage, but I don't think it will cover the bridge replacement. He's kind of lumping that all together, when it is actually separate coverages, with different limits of coverage. On the ships I worked on we had policies and certificates for liability, hull and machinery (the physical ship itself), oil spill, salvage and wreck removal, and a fairly new requirement - crew repatriation and care (in case a company abandons the vessel and crew somewhere, the funds will pay to care for and return the crew home). While they usually were issued by the same P&I Club, the limits were different. So the costs for damages here will fall into different categories and policies. And it will take many years to sort out, as he said.

Again, my disclaimer being that I've had brushes with these issues, but I'm no expert. Could be off on some of this (been involved in claims, but never took out a bridge), but I don't think I'll be too far out of bounds.

The pipeline complication he mentions is interesting. I hadn't heard that one before. Dragging an anchor across all the cables can chew that stuff up too. They might not have been active though. At least not power, or it would have caused a blackout somewhere nearby.
 

This gentleman has little clue about what he's talking about. The Jones Act is not the problem, and in fact is the main reason we have any commercial ships left under US flag. The inland waterways and Great Lakes are in fact a very busy and vibrant, and essential means of transportation that employs many hundreds of thousands of people. You want to remove the Jones Act, ok. You will have cheap, unskilled, underpaid foreign workers with little oversight moving about the same amount of cargo around the country, but doing so with far less legal responsibility and standards that US flag shipping must adhere to. And in the end, transportation accounts for about 2% or less of the cost of goods, so even if it was free, you won't save any money. Don't believe me? Check out what has happened in countries like Japan and some in Europe that had similar protections that were removed. Their domestic fleets go to zero overnight.

Why isn't there even more shipping? Because Americans don't want to wait a week or 10 days for their goods to travel from Baltimore to Chicago. Our road system that was built after WW2 is very fast. People are used to everything, overnight.
 
This gentleman has little clue about what he's talking about. The Jones Act is not the problem, and in fact is the main reason we have any commercial ships left under US flag. The inland waterways and Great Lakes are in fact a very busy and vibrant, and essential means of transportation that employs many hundreds of thousands of people. You want to remove the Jones Act, ok. You will have cheap, unskilled, underpaid foreign workers with little oversight moving about the same amount of cargo around the country, but doing so with far less legal responsibility and standards that US flag shipping must adhere to. And in the end, transportation accounts for about 2% or less of the cost of goods, so even if it was free, you won't save any money. Don't believe me? Check out what has happened in countries like Japan and some in Europe that had similar protections that were removed. Their domestic fleets go to zero overnight.

Why isn't there even more shipping? Because Americans don't want to wait a week or 10 days for their goods to travel from Baltimore to Chicago. Our road system that was built after WW2 is very fast. People are used to everything, overnight.
Yeah, he doesn't have a clue about what's really behind the lack of use of American waterways for freight. His statement that except for the Jones Act there would be thousands of ships carrying a few containers each up and down rivers and bays is silly. You can't make a profit moving a couple of dozen containers on a ship, even if you're paying developing world wages to the crew. You just can't get the crews small enough to make that pencil out.

By the way, anyone who says that they want to get rid of the Jones Act is also saying that they want to move living wage American jobs (shipbuilders, seafarers, repair personnel, designers, etc.) to China, Korea, or India. An awful lot of them to China. If that doesn't sit right with you, then support the Jones Act.

Disclaimer: My job depends on the Jones Act. If that didn't exist, the companies that are my customers would be building their ships in China. Possibly Turkey, but more likely China since I'm on the West Coast.
 
I think the question I'd ask is; how much of the infrastructure (US flagged ships/crew) has been lost over the years due to the Jones Act? I have to admit, I know very little about the Jones Act other than it's military ramifications. sd

To Eric's point, it's fair to say that all of the current fleet/crews is a result of the Jones Act (Jones Act Eligible) but how much more could it be? I read were the overwhelming number of "hulls" for trans in this country are in barges and stays close to the shore (inland waterways). The "international" fleet went from ~200 in the mid-2000s to around ~80 in 2019 (maritime.dot.gov) Not sure the impact there but what little I know about the Jones Act is that all (100%) of US Military cargo has to go on US Flagged ships so that keeps the US Flagged Fleet viable. So basically, from my understanding, a large portion, or most, of commercial maritime cargo in this country is transported under foreign flagged ships already.
 
Would they be more liable if it was found that before departure they were having problems at the dock, said they were solved but were not really totally solved? In other words they left knowingly that there were questions as to whether the problem was really solved.
 
Would they be more liable if it was found that before departure they were having problems at the dock, said they were solved but were not really totally solved? In other words they left knowingly that there were questions as to whether the problem was really solved.
I read another article which said the judge could dismiss their claim for various reasons, one of them being negligence. From what I read this is just the first step in a long legal battle. I don't see how the judge could even rule prior to the NTSB releasing the final report from the investigation. If the report's conclusion is anything other than the ship was in good working order, being operated properly and this was just a fluke failure then I don't see how he could accept their limited liability claim. But I'm not a lawyer so what do I know.
 
I think the question I'd ask is; how much of the infrastructure (US flagged ships/crew) has been lost over the years due to the Jones Act? I have to admit, I know very little about the Jones Act other than it's military ramifications. sd

To Eric's point, it's fair to say that all of the current fleet/crews is a result of the Jones Act (Jones Act Eligible) but how much more could it be? I read were the overwhelming number of "hulls" for trans in this country are in barges and stays close to the shore (inland waterways). The "international" fleet went from ~200 in the mid-2000s to around ~80 in 2019 (maritime.dot.gov) Not sure the impact there but what little I know about the Jones Act is that all (100%) of US Military cargo has to go on US Flagged ships so that keeps the US Flagged Fleet viable. So basically, from my understanding, a large portion, or most, of commercial maritime cargo in this country is transported under foreign flagged ships already.
Nearly all of the cargo entering the US from foreign ports travels on foreign-flag ships. There are a few exceptions, but they're mainly US-government/military cargoes. The real question is about domestic cargo movement and domestic fishing boats, tugboats, etc. Looking at the sectors in turn...

There's an enormous amount of cargo transported on the Mississippi River system, like 175 million tons/year to and from the Upper Mississippi (above St. Louis) alone. Likewise on other major river systems like the Columbia. Most of that is commodities (grain, stone, coal, etc.) that nobody's in a big hurry to get. There are some moves to put more containers on barges, but there is a real issue of how quickly people want their stuff. You can move it vastly more efficiently on the water, but people will pay for second day delivery so it goes by air or truck. I would guess that river transportation has only grown during the Jones Act era, but mainly because agricultural yields are so much higher.

Coastwise trade (ie along the coast, not on a river) is a more mixed bag. It's a little hard to separate out what's related to the Jones Act, what's related to the decline of American industrial supremacy (at the end of WWII we had something like 60-70% of the world's total shipbuilding capacity), and what's related to changing technology and consumer demand (see speed of delivery above, also just-in-time and other abominations invented by CPAs). We've lost a lot of coastal trade, but was that due to the Jones Act or due to better railways? There aren't hundreds of passenger ferries on Puget Sound anymore, but that's more about bridges and roads. Passenger liners were killed by cheaper air travel.

Another challenge is that transferring between modes is relatively time consuming and expensive. To take a ridiculous example, you wouldn't truck a container to the river, put it on a barge, transport it 25 miles upstream, and put it on another truck for final delivery. You'd just drive it the whole way. At some point, if the water doesn't go where you need it to, it's easier/cheaper to use other modes.

Fishing boats are a rare case of a very clear cause and effect. Back in the early 70's, the US did a land grab and claimed all of the marine resources out to the 200-mile limit. Prior to that, it was 12 miles. When that happened, there was a boom in the US fishing industry. We currently have domestic factory trawlers where we only had Russian or European boats. A lot of fisheries saw a lot of growth. Unfortunately, the fish stocks didn't hold up to the increased pressure, so the fleets have shrunk somewhat, and/or gotten older as the economics haven't favored replacement. You might remember @Capt. Eric saying that 25 years is really old for a container ship. Most of the fishing boats I work on are >40 years old. There are a few boats out there built in WWII. Actually, there are a couple of lovely old wooden halibut boats built in the 20's still active in Alaskan waters.

Tugboats never left. It's theoretically possible that there might be more tugs without the Jones Act, but the business is still pretty good.
 
I read another article which said the judge could dismiss their claim for various reasons, one of them being negligence. From what I read this is just the first step in a long legal battle. I don't see how the judge could even rule prior to the NTSB releasing the final report from the investigation. If the report's conclusion is anything other than the ship was in good working order, being operated properly and this was just a fluke failure then I don't see how he could accept their limited liability claim. But I'm not a lawyer so what do I know.
Most of the limitations of liability have a standard of seaworthiness. That has to be at least tangentially related to the accident. For example, a navigation light being out is no good, but you couldn't use that to declare a boat unseaworthy if it capsized and sank. It would be very relevant in a collision, though. And just because something's broken doesn't necessarily mean that the boat was unseaworthy. For example, if one of the generators was acting up at the dock, and the Dali was able to sail on the working ones, it's not necessarily unseaworthy to leave with the one generator under repair on board. It might make an accident slightly more likely if one of the other generators had an unexpected failure though. On the other hand, if three out of four generators were down for repair and they were just barely able to hold the electrical system together to get off the dock, that would be a much better claim of unseaworthiness. It's somewhat subjective, and incorporates issues of crewing, maintenance, current condition, etc. That lawsuit will take at least 5 years to sort out, and 10 wouldn't surprise me.

Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer. Don't take my advice.
 
I think the question I'd ask is; how much of the infrastructure (US flagged ships/crew) has been lost over the years due to the Jones Act? I have to admit, I know very little about the Jones Act other than it's military ramifications. sd

To Eric's point, it's fair to say that all of the current fleet/crews is a result of the Jones Act (Jones Act Eligible) but how much more could it be? I read were the overwhelming number of "hulls" for trans in this country are in barges and stays close to the shore (inland waterways). The "international" fleet went from ~200 in the mid-2000s to around ~80 in 2019 (maritime.dot.gov) Not sure the impact there but what little I know about the Jones Act is that all (100%) of US Military cargo has to go on US Flagged ships so that keeps the US Flagged Fleet viable. So basically, from my understanding, a large portion, or most, of commercial maritime cargo in this country is transported under foreign flagged ships already.
You're not wrong, but with a big caveat. The vast majority of cargo coming into and out of the US is carried by foreign flagged ships. But all cargo carried between US ports is carried on US flagged vessels (that is one of the main provisions of the Jones Act). Also US military and government cargo, plus 50‰ of food aid shipments, is to be on US vessels, so long as a suitable vessel is available. There are some US vessels trading foreign, and they often carry some cargo that is US government or military goods, plus there is a small subsidy that some qualify for. That helps support the US industry.

Back to the barges you mentioned, yes, most river traffic is by barge. They work well as they draw less water in the shallow rivers, are flexible as far as how many barges are used, depending on the cargo quantity, and with smaller crews & easier regulations, they are cheaper to operate. Most oil product around the coasts is carried by ships though.

If anyone remembers the 1st Gulf War in 1990/91, we were barely able to handle that sea lift to support our operation. And these days, with fewer ships, albeit larger ones, it would not go as well. Even back then, a handful of foreign ships were chartered, and one refused to proceed into the war zone, requiring it to be diverted and the cargo transferred to another vessel. Such delays are not desirable during a war effort. So that is why the US military is so worried about the decline that you accurately point out.

Before we run into the weeds any further, I'll just end this by saying that the Jones Act is actually a collection of laws passed about 100 years ago (and updated a few times since) that was meant to support the US merchant marine, shipyards, the steel industry, defense, and other industrial interests. Some parts of it are rather complicated, and a little dated and obscure, but on the whole, it's basic tenets have helped far more than they have hurt. That's why Congress continues to support it in a bipartisan way that few other issues are. There are some interests that try to get support for its repeal, but they are mostly ship owners who wish to bring in cheap ships and crews to make a buck. Before you jump on that bandwagon, please read up on it and get all the facts, rather than take the word of a lobbyist or others with a hidden agenda, or who are misinformed.

And like boatgeek's disclaimer, I sailed on US merchant ships for over 35 years (including cadet time) as a deck officer. The last 16 years as Capt. I retired at the end of 2020.
 
I made the mistake of leaving out passenger boats. That industry has fundamentally changed in the age of the Jones Act. 100 years ago, most passenger boat/ship travel was to get someplace. There were some pleasure trips, but water was convenient transportation in an era when roads were much sparser, especially in the West. For example, my wife's grandmother's family had homesteaded on a lake in NW Washington. She rode the mail boat twice a day to get to school and home. While there are still ferries now, the industry is much more geared toward sightseeing/dinner cruises/gambling/recreation in general than it was before.

And of course, there's some national pride and public perception that happened over time. in 1950, I can guarantee that people would look a little askance at getting on a big passenger ship flagged in the Bahamas. What standards are they skirting by not being US or UK flag, they'd ask. Now, people only wonder whether their cruise ship has the right number of water slides and poolside bars.
 
I found this video from someone who knows about the subject regarding potential reconstruction of the bridge. (Casey isn't a structural engineer but he has been involved in a lot of similar projects. I'm a structural engineer an although I understand how all of the different structural systems work I've never been involved in a large highway bridge construction project.)

 
I hope this is the plan.
Not sure the span needs to be wider, MV Dali was 158 feet across the beam, the center span was something like 1200', thats 500' approximately of clearance on either side of the ship. If Dali had been transiting the span sideways then there would have been very little clearance (Dali is 948ft long roughly). This was an accident....so lets make something bigger just because even if its not needed. On the other hand I can see changing the design from a Continous Truss (what the bridge was) to a two pier cable stayed span so that in the event a pier was hit only half the span would have been lost, and possibly fewer lives. These ships are large but when working as they should they are also surprisingly maneuverable for their size.
 
Not sure the span needs to be wider, MV Dali was 158 feet across the beam, the center span was something like 1200', thats 500' approximately of clearance on either side of the ship. If Dali had been transiting the span sideways then there would have been very little clearance (Dali is 948ft long roughly). This was an accident....so lets make something bigger just because even if its not needed. On the other hand I can see changing the design from a Continous Truss (what the bridge was) to a two pier cable stayed span so that in the event a pier was hit only half the span would have been lost, and possibly fewer lives. These ships are large but when working as they should they are also surprisingly maneuverable for their size.
Anything less than 3-4 times the ship's beam is going to be a problem. Not to say they can't fit some good fenders at the current spacing, but they can't go less than 500-600 feet clear. Even that might give them some pause. We have a project currently running where a barge is being taken through an opening 1.5 times the beam. That took two tugs tied up hard to the barge and a lot of simulator time to make it work.

If there's any more restriction to the channel than what's there at present, the pilots will need a say.
 
Not sure the span needs to be wider, MV Dali was 158 feet across the beam, the center span was something like 1200', thats 500' approximately of clearance on either side of the ship. If Dali had been transiting the span sideways then there would have been very little clearance (Dali is 948ft long roughly). This was an accident....so lets make something bigger just because even if its not needed. On the other hand I can see changing the design from a Continous Truss (what the bridge was) to a two pier cable stayed span so that in the event a pier was hit only half the span would have been lost, and possibly fewer lives. These ships are large but when working as they should they are also surprisingly maneuverable for their size.
The clearance should be measured from the protective barrier, not the bridge pillars.
 

Latest posts

Back
Top