ARSA Legislative Update (WAS: please FAX and Phone Your Senators NOW!)

[airforce]

I agree with Micros' example.
I also agree that we keep losing more and more of our freedoms.
Balance is a difficult thing to obtain now-a-days.
Randy

 

[KermieD]

Originally posted by Micromister
Just for fun, Lets replace the 9lbs of concrete, a couple pounds for unnecessary Chute and recovery hardware..we can load up 10lbs or so of Sintex or C-4. a simple contact fuse or detenator cap is all the extras needed. Launched from the back of one of those Big Box Trucks we've heard so much about and this little puppy is very mobile! At 40 degrees angle this thing will go ballistic about a mile on that same L motor, much futher on a larger motor. It doesn't have to be guided, it doesn't have to be controlled, it isn't necessary to even be "aimed". Hell, it doesn't even have to hit anything specific, but it will hit something and that my friends is a "TERROR WEAPON". See it's not so much about APCP being an Explosive and it is about being Cheap and dirty DELIVERY Vehicle.

John

Don't forget to regulate your box truck while you're at it. A rocket has never been used in the method you've described. A box truck has. While we're at it, don't forget to regulate the gasoline that fuels it. Anything over 20 gallons gives this dangerous delivery vehicle a range of hundreds of miles. Oh, yes. they make them to run on LP too. Gotta regulate liquid propane.

The point is that a sport or hobby rocket is a terribly inefficient delivery vehicle compared to anything else out there. Even if it were not, anyone who has access to the Semtex or C-4 isn't going to find the choke-point of their plans hinging on a K motor. The regulation of the motor based on the fact that it can be used to fuel a delivery vehicle is both redundant and unreasonable, and opens the door for some truly frightening potential regulation of everything we do.

Let's say I take a van. Add a couple hundred pounds of common fertilizer, a bunch of kerosene and small amounts of a few other ingredients that can still be bought over the counter. My name is Timothy McVeigh and I drive to Oklahoma City. I wipe out half a federal office building and kill scores of men, women and children. How many did you get with your 10 lbs. of C-4 (provided you could get some)? Odds are you got none because you missed your target and if you did, your chances of getting more than 1 or 2 are slim.

The excuse of regulating a substance or item because it can be used as a delivery system is the thought process that's "crazy" to borrow the Senator's term. If someone actually does this, then look to how the perpetrator got a hold of the C-4 or Semtex. Until then, the Senators are peddling a false sense of security while setting a dangerous precedent of regulating materials not for their intended use, but for the potential of abuse. Again, in that case, you need to regulate any petroleum based product on the planet. This isn't a matter of balance. It's a matter of abuse.

More people have been killed with golf clubs than with APCP.

 

[izzy]

there are a few more tidbits in this article:

Hobby rocket plan under fire
By TED MONOSON Star-Tribune Washington bureau

at https://www.casperstartribune.net/a.../wyoming/68daceed4c457533501ba619cea32bae.prt

or https://tinyurl.com/ij83

- iz

 

[Rocketman248]

All I can think during all of this is, in six months I will be leaving New York forever. Almost every one in New York is paranoid about anything that goes whoosh or pop, so they vote for someone that is scared of stuff that goes whoosh or pop. I am sick of it. In six months I will be going into the Navy so I won't be able to do rockets for a while. You can be sure though, that I will not move back to NY when I am done.

I am not at all against the .9 pound limit. It really doesn't change much. It actually allows us to buy some 54mm motors without a permit(54/852) as well as 29 and 38mm single use. As for the 2 pound limit on black powder, that's fine. Who uses more than that?

I still cannot believe that this is taking so long. Most of the senators were on our side once they were educated. Not Schumer and Lautenberg. They are just too stubborn.

Thank you for listening to my rants.


BTW. Thank you Izzy for the regular updates.

 

[airforce]

Kermie,
I agree with your explanation even more!!! Man you're right on,
what the H*** is the matter with me. Our freedoms are a heck of a lot more important then pretend security.
I stand corrected and I feel good about it.
Must be all that cold air, keeps your brain cells active!!

 

[Ryan S.]

the senators are doing it because they want votes. Most of the general population has no idea if rockets are dangerous so if he twists the definition of propellant and what the rockets are used for to suit him it will make the rockets look dangerous. The people will hear him use words like explosive and believe that rockets and propellant are unsafe and could cause them harm so when it comes time to vote and the average joe is standing in the booth thinking about who to vote for and they come to his name they think "I will vote for him, he is protecting us from harm caused by terrorists by banning dangerous rockets"

It is a scam. He is just covering is backside.

You see there are simpler ways to stop terrorism. For example protecting the borders from illegal immegrants and doing thorough backround checks on tourists coming into the US for vacation. If he did this then the terrorists wouldnt be able to get into the country to harm us.

But then he is a politician, this can only be expected

just my two cents...I could go on...but then what I say could become irrelavant

 

[Micromeister]

Kermie:
Those are good examples of a poor argument, every one mentioned is a close proximity delivery device; Vans, cars, Trucks, even Backpacks all have to be postioned before use. Most more likely than not, can only do it once.
Missiles are standoff weapons, if launched with a little forethought they might be able to do quite a few before being located and destroyed. That this hasn't happened is not good enough. If I've thought of it, I'm sure many others have also. I used the Sintex senario because ANYONE can make the stuff in the kitchen with common available materials. Actually it is the Plasti of choice by terroist, I assume for that reason.
Terroist aren't really interested in being accurate, from the stuff we see on TV their not really interested in doing the most damage, They are interested in disrupting everyones lives. It is these FACTS that make the regulation of APCP so important. I live in a big city, I've seen areas that such an event could be staged with horrendous effects. I'd really like to prevent any such thing from ever happening.
Until 9-11 NOONE had ever flown a Plane into a high raise building on purpose before either!

I've recently be informed by folks in several "sensative" industries that they are secure with the measures in place to repell a truck or car bomb attack but NOT so for a smallish missile attack. some said a small (10lb warhead) short range missile would not could be devastating to their compounds, Exactlty what we are discussing here. This is not "Crazy" at all. Putting our heads in the sand and saying it's not a SO, it's not reliable.. or so inefficeient a method these sicko's won't use it, now that is the crazy.
Regulation may not completely stop these guys, I know they make their own ID's, So forgeing a L-2 or L-3 card would be a snap, With a little work they might even be able to Fake a LEP but I don't think there going to want the FED lnspecting their digs unannounced. Sensable regualtion of these thing is required. I'm hoping it will not be to sever. But the NAR and TRIPOLI are doing serious damage to the hobby's rep by their short sighted, approach.

If we don't have guns we'll beat each other to dead with a club! JEM.
There are way to many bad guys out there that just want to hurt the USA, to ignore this potential.

 

[airforce]

I just want to launch my freakin little rocket!!

History has taught us that if the government gets involved, well, most of us will get screwed.

Close the borders so I can launch my rockets!!
No one gets in unless they have an NAR card and have purchased at least one item from every vendor on this Forum, or two from Fliskits. Why two you ask, because I'm making the rules now.

See how easy my world would be. Let us not get to serious or the MODERATORS will become TERMINATORS. I think they like that!!! just kidding buddies...

 

[Micromeister]

I"m with Ya Airforce!
Close the border, Nar cards ect.

 

[rstaff3]

Any comment I make now will be against TRF's rules.

Peace

 

[KermieD]

Originally posted by Micromister
Kermie:
if launched with a little forethought they might be able to do quite a few before being located and destroyed.

I've seen the Bee Two. You ain't getting more than one in a box truck along with launch gear.

Terroist aren't really interested in being accurate, from the stuff we see on TV their not really interested in doing the most damage, They are interested in disrupting everyones lives.

You just can't make 10 lbs. of a homemade explosive cause that much disruption.

I've recently be informed by folks in several "sensative" industries that they are secure with the measures in place to repell a truck or car bomb attack but NOT so for a smallish missile attack. some said a small (10lb warhead) short range missile would not could be devastating to their compounds

By your own argument, these "sensitive" industries are not the targets. It's the football stadiums and ballparks, etc. that are at risk. These are quite accessible to trucks. Besides, they're probably talking about 10 lbs. of really high explosives if you are going to use small missiles to describe damage that would be "catastrophic" to almost any "sensitive" facility, not homemade junk.

These "FACTS" are merely your interpretation of what is and is not reasonable for a terrorist to use. In reality, terrorists are practical and will choose the method and target that will cause the GREATEST disruption with the LARGES chance of success. Causing any sort of meaningful disruption of our lives is just not feasible using small J motors. Just remember that in order to get to that Bee Two with its 9 lb. front end, you have to get a successful cluster launch of at least 10 J motors (no, I didn't do the math, but that's close) to match the M to send that thing going. There aren't a whole lot of guys who have been in this hobby for years who stand a good chance of doing that.

 

[rstaff3]

Off topic but descriptive of what we are up against?

Pythagorean Theorem - 24 words
Lord's Prayer - 66 words
Archimedes' Principle - 67 words
Ten Commandments - 179 words
Gettysburg Address - 286 words
Declaration of Independence - 1300 words
U.S. Government regulations on the sale of cabbage - 26,911 words

(unverified stats )

 

[Micromeister]

Kermie:
Apparently you were not paying attention! the Bee-Two Flew with 9lbs of concrete to 3000' on a single L motor, Not and M, N, or O or any clusters. All the distance,facts weights presented are based on the flying weight of the BEE-TWO from the article. By the way I'm not sure were you get your info but 10 lbs of sentex is about the same as 25 sticks of tnt, thats a pretty high explosive. Argue if you must but at least do so with good info, not just speculation. My only reason for bringing this up is others out here need to here the other side. Not ever rocketeer is against the BATFE reg's. My example is just that, an example. If they want a more streamlined and compact missile it would be very, very easy, and that 10lb blob of material will fit in a space about 4inches by 12 or 14" depending of the taper. Get a hold on you emotions and try to imagine what one of these would do dropping in on a football or baseball game, no warning, no sound, just a big BANG. it's very simple ballistics, with a CAD delivery vehicle.
All this is to say I hate the idea of additional regulations and redtape...Government oversight as much as the next guy ... but, If we have to go thourgh a few hoops to get our permits, if it's gona keep these sick-o's from buying motors of the shelf, Well So be it. Suck it up an move on!
I'm sure there is always going to be ways of attempting to sweep away any though of misuse but, We are in the minority, So get used to it, unless I miss my guess, APCP regulation is going to pass and be here to say. If we fail to trottle the leaders of our Orginizations, It may be worse. Seeing the resent fall out for the Senators outside the committee, we may have opened pandora's box. I hope not but, we all know the only reaction government usually makes is Over reaction.

 

[n3tjm]

The problem is they are playing What Ifs... Why not ban gasoline... just in case somebody wants to use that as a bomb?

If they have access to high explosives... I am sure getting a hold of a rocket motor would not be an issue for them... and they would not bother with any permits...

And renting a truck to deliver the bomb is a lot cheaper and faster than building a rocket that won't decentergrate with the power it takes to deliver the payload the distance you are talking about.

Besides, your missing the point. Why do you need an Explosive Permit for something that is not explosive? I wouldn't mind getting a background check for "High Power Rocket license" to access powerful motors that are not explosives. I got a background check for my conciled weapons permit... same deal, and GUNS cause more distruction than a mear rocket.

Not everybody can get a permit. I looked into getting a permit, but place my APCP in either AMW or CMASS magazine... but the ATF agents will still search my home address. My folk would not apreciate that. So, untill I can afford moving out and livin in my own place... I have to fly hybrid.

 

[KermieD]

Micro:

That 3,000 ft launch on an L is straight up. At your 40 degree launch angle, that thing augers into the ground barely a few hundred yards away. Again, we come back to the reality that for a foreign terrorist, it's easier, more reliable, and more effective to get an earlier generation military rocket to do the job than to make and detonate a hobby rocket, or, if we're talking about a football or baseball game, a box truck loaded with fertilizer and kerosene. Even an R/C plane is a more effective delivery method (sorry to the R/C guys, but it's true). Also, again, we're talking about small J motors here in the legislation, not even L's or M's.

The other problem that occurs if you're trying to create a homemade rocket is the issue of creating an explosive that a) won't detonate when you launch your rocket and b) will detonate when you reach your target. Most homemade explosives are too sensitive to survive a launch and if they're not, you have the problem of effectively detonating them at the right time.

Oh, yeah. By the way, Semtex is about 140-150% TNT, IF you get it to detonate effectively. That's just not as easy to do as you imply. A 10" diameter capsule is the most effective container. The rate of the explosion goes down the narrower your container gets, so your more streamlined missile becomes less effective. Besides, if you're looking at the cookbooks to make Semtex, you're also probably have the wherewithal to make your own motor (it's in all the same cookbooks). If anything, allowing someone to buy hobby motors makes it more possible to trace the possible end user of the motor.

9/11 and the OKC bombings occured as they did because in both cases the terrorist chose the most effective way to cause the most havoc possible with the greatest chance of success. A hobby rocket just doesn't fit that description.

The real issue is that APCP is being regulated as an explosive, not as a fuel, while it is a fuel and not an explosive. As such, it should legally require separate legislation to outlaw it. If your argument is that it's a delivery vehicle, then it doesn't even belong in the ATFE's basket, nor does it belong in the SEA.

Yes, we are in the minority, but freedom or the lack thereof shouldn't be legislated based on the number of people whose freedom is compromised. This is where we ended up with segregation laws and the Japanese internment camps in WWII, and this is why there are a dozen better delivery methods that will continue to go unregulated. As long as it's only a small group of people, their rights and freedoms are inconsequential. As long as you don't trample the freedom of at least one percentage point of the population, you can go right on ahead.

Also, it's as Doug said. We can't ban substances based on potential abuse of these substances. If this is the case, we have to ban fertilizer, any petroleum product, or firearms in general. This is precisely why the ATF's Congressional mandate on explosives states "any substance who's primary purpose is to function by explosion".

I now have a friend about 20 miles away who has storage he's willing to let me use as contingency storage, so I will probably do my hoop-jumping one way or the other before next flying season so I can get down to business to fly my TRF rocket on a K again (this time hopefully successfully) next spring or summer.

It *is, however, absolutely silly to say that my H or I motors that I'd like to fly locally in the meantime are potential terrorist weapons. I think the legislation that exempts up to small J motors is a very realistic and well reasoned compromise between the need for "perceived safety" and the freedoms of rocketeers, and not "crazy" as the Senators would suggest.

 

[Chilly]

And a picture is worth a thousand words (insert your preferred cliche here)...
We all know this is a lot of bullhockey, and the scientific facts back us up. But that's not what makes law or sways public opinion.
My friends and coworkers have seen me reading HPR magazines or looking up stuff on the 'net, and they almost always jump to the same conclusion right away - that it would be really easy to turn this stuff into a home-grown tactical missile. It's hard to downplay the effect of seeing the latest Gates bros. or Wedge Oldham clustered-N monstrosity if you're not really familiar with what goes into it. It takes 5 seconds for that image to burn into their brains, and ten minutes for me to explain why it would be useless to turn one of those into a guided weapon.

The old saying, I believe, is that rockets are easy. Warheads are easy. GUIDANCE is hard. We have our work cut out for us in educating the public. Hopefully this Schumer/Lautenberg disgrace won't slow things down. The one thing our favor is that neither one of them, nor their party, has shown that they can be taken seriously on national defense.

 

[swimmer]

Allowing obvious lies, half-truths and ignorant statements to be cloaked as truth, without rebuttal, no matter what the cause will do more harm to our society than any quantity of rocketry propellant.

Schumer and Lautenberg should be invited to participate in our Forum.

My .02 worth...

Swimmer

 

[MarkABrown]

Micromister, you may be willing to roll over and surrender your freedoms but I am not. Kermie and Doug have explained very eloquently to you why these motors should not be regulated. It is not a matter of keeping track of these items that upsets people. I'd be willing to say that nearly every rocketeer would be willing to have every rocket motor purchase tracked if it didn't require $100 permit, background checks and explosive storage requirements. The fact is that real rocketeers aren't going to use the motors for terrorist activities and the real terrorists aren't going to go ask Ross at Magnum to supply them with an "M" motor so they can launch it at the White House! You keep telling everyone to accept the regulation, suck it up and move on. I think you need a reality check to see that any regulation imposed on us will not make us one bit safer from terrorism. Instead of telling everyone to look at it from your point of view, why don't you set aside your clear anti-HPR bias and try to see things from the HPR rocketeers point of view?

 

[lamart72]

It seems to me that possibly these Politicians are against this so that they can tell their constituents " Look at me! I am working really hard to prevent terrorism!"

 

[airforce]

How do you spell dipstick....
p.o.l.i.t.i.c.i.a.n.

I don't know, it just came to me.

 

[Ryan S.]

In the end I agree with Lamar but I will put in my point of veiw.

For H-K motors you should not have to get a LEUP. This is simply because these motors are not strong enough to lift an explosive to cause enough damage for the whole process to be worth while for a terrorist.

Theoretically, Microminister is right, I mean yes a large rocket could carry an explosive payload but the cost/ Damage ratio would be soo low it would be impractical. I mean, You need to learn about how to build rockets. Build one with all the materials. Get a certification and then learn how to build the motor build a launch stand and get a launch area that wont attract attention. The list goes on and on. It is very impractical.

While there should probably be regulations on huge motors...not on the little ones...there is no need of it.

Like I said the polotics dont care...they just want votes. They arent being rational

 

[gerbs4me]

I totally agree with Ryan S
the only reaction the gov. made was overeaction

 

[jetra2]

6/19/2003
Committee on the Judiciary. Reported by Senator Hatch with an amendment in the nature of a substitute. Without written report


I saw this on the S.724 status page. What does the bolded area mean??

Jason

 

[n3tjm]

Originally posted by MarkABrown
Instead of telling everyone to look at it from your point of view, why don't you set aside your clear anti-HPR bias and try to see things from the HPR rocketeers point of view?

Folks, we need to remember to keep things friendly here. This issue is fustrating everyone, and everyone has their own point of view and opinions. I have found on this forum, and in my club that this confict is causing bad vibes among rocketeers.

Remember, its a matter of perspective. A non HPR person does not know the reality of HPR.. I personally find that H and I rockets behave simular to LPR rockets.. but when aproaching J motors... interesting things start to happen. You find that epoxy fillits arn't enough. You find that fiberglassing is crucial, electronics a very good investment, and sheer pins for the nose is a must... no matter how tight I friction fit the nose, the main still comes out at apogee... These are just a few examples. LPR person may think that HPR is a bigger version of a LPR bird... not understanding its a different ball game. Its more than a L motor stuck in a rocket...

Micromister, forgive me if I am wrong in my assumption that you never done HPR.

 

[airforce]

No bad vibes here, I just want to launch my rockets.

I'm done with this thread as of,,,,,,right now.

 

[gerbs4me]

no bad vides here either
I just want to launch my rockets too

 

[daveyfire]

I usually hate getting in on politica discussions... but...

As eloquently stated by Doug and Kermie, regulating rockets as delivery systems is stupid. You don't suppose that people would see you setting up a 6" diameter 10 foot tall rocket in the parking lot (or somewhere nearby) of the stadium you want to attack? There are so many things out there that can be more destructive... heck it's possible to take out a building with a bag of flour, a fan, and a match. I agree with Ryan S., the politicians are just covering their backsides to make it look like they are helping the country.

[rant mode]

Now I ask you, what will there be left of our freedoms when Ryan, Matt, myself, and all the other younger rocketeers get the chance to vote? Where will our hobby have gone in those years? And what can we do about it? I hate feeling utterly powerless to do something to help. I'm a minor for the next three years. Grrrr.

[/rant mode]

Thanks for listening guys. Let's keep it friendly.

 

[iceage]

MY EYEEESS... MY EYEEEEEEEEEEESSS....

Thyne arguments doth temp me, like a red wine baguette doth tempest a French Foreign Legionnaire in Iran. I must stay strongeth like thee glasseth fin can and resisteth yon sultry temptations... I have sworn verily to treat ye TRF as a newborn babe, utaintedeth by my sullied r.m.r. past. BUT,... thee seeketh to tempteth we merry men of thee later day (aftereth happy houreth) reformed saints close-to-on-topic guild (not to be confused with thee Finding Nemo guild) who not knowingly mixeth thee political twinst thee technical!!! I smell fresh blood.... FREEEEEEEEEEEDDDOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMmmm... cough, cough, plop...

what was the air speed of an unladen Swallow?

 

[Stymye]

All emotions aside ..we are a small ..very small,,, minority.in this debate.the battle is esentially over!!!!!..what we feel or think will not make one bit of difference at this point .and yes I am reluctantly throwing in the towel

the big dogs in washington have stepped in and they WILL get their way....the Batfe is peanuts compared to the people who have stepped onto the arena this past week ..and they have made it clear(in oh so many terms) !!!that If we want to persue this issue any furthur ..that they will squash this hobby .AND by the way ,,they are not just picking on rocketeers but the R/C sport just as strongly

They have assembled a Very strong case and will have no problem convincing the general public likewise if need be..

It was not easy for me personally to accept how things have changed in the last few weeks.I feel its unfair and heartless

the best course I think ..is to take the licking and go from there

lets lick our wounds and go onward

 

[Ryan S.]

That is too bad. I find the goverment in this Country very interesting. It evolved from the goverments of Greece and Rome where in the beginning the people sat on the hill and told the rulers what they wanted.

This worked very well until there were so many people that the hill didnt work because not all the people could fit on the hill so we elected representitives to voice what we wanted.

Now these representitives do what they want not what we want. Here in MA the people voted for english immersion, where before children came into the classroom they had to learn how to speak english. This kept the classes running smoothly and more effiecantly. Well, now the reps are voting to overule the peoples votes. If they think there shouldnt be english immersion then the whole thing gets overulled and anyone can walk into a classroom no matter what language they speak

The goverment just went ahead here and took our motors away from us. They didnt get the facts they didnt ask us, they just went ahead and did it. Just taking away our liberties.

They will find a danger in everything, its just a matter of time. Soon we will be living in plastic bubbles where everything we do is regulated.