Altimeters and Cold

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Hospital_Rocket

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I can't find an operating temperature range for barometric altimeters and was wondering if any other cold weather dwellers have experience difficulties. We had our launch today and the temperature hovered around 28 degrees all day. Of our dual deploy rockets we essentially had a 100% malfunction rate on them. All of these were proven performers in past launches.

Any ideas?
 
Solar flare, irregularities in the Borealis, and the termite strike in Malaysia.

But seriously - that sounds like some seriously bad voodoo there. The temperature at MidwestPower 4 hovered at or below freezing most of the weekend, and there were TONS of dual deploy flights that - from an observer's standpoint - went off without a hitch.
 
Here is the part I should have mentioned earlier, we were getting deployments, just at the wrong time. We were getting both charges at apogee, deployments under thrust, or no mains. The results seemed scattered however a 100% failure just seems too weird.

These were all Co-Pilots or RRC2 altimiters. I plan to get in touch with Missileworks next week to see if there is anything weird about the sensor and cold.
 
I had a spate of failures with RRC's last year in wet conditions. Probably due to years of residue being conductive when water is added. (I have a thread on it on N3 somewhere.

Perhaps you had "warm" altimeters introduced in a 28F environment and had a little condensation on the PCB. Just a wild-assed-speculation.....
 
I had a spate of failures with RRC's last year in wet conditions. Probably due to years of residue being conductive when water is added. (I have a thread on it on N3 somewhere.

Perhaps you had "warm" altimeters introduced in a 28F environment and had a little condensation on the PCB. Just a wild-assed-speculation.....

That might be a problem if it were cold altimeters introduced to a warm and humid environment. In any case, a simple conformal coating would prevent the problem.
 
That might be a problem if it were cold altimeters introduced to a warm and humid environment. In any case, a simple conformal coating would prevent the problem.

you're right. The cold up here right now has my brain cells not firing.
 
Here is the part I should have mentioned earlier, we were getting deployments, just at the wrong time. We were getting both charges at apogee, deployments under thrust, or no mains. The results seemed scattered however a 100% failure just seems too weird.

It could still be a cold battery issue. Electronics can do really weird things when they're run on too low of voltage. I'm not familiar with the altimeters, but if they have a charging capacitor on the firing circuits, they could still fire even though the battery voltage was too low to operate the electronics correctly.

Next time drop the battery down your pants for a while to warm it up before installing. Just don't jump around too much, you don't want to explain that one. :D:D:D
 
I've flown at MDRA when it was in the 30's with no troubles..
keep the payload section in your car until you're ready to fly or try running 2 batteries in parallel.



JD
 
I was talking with Patrick M about the CATO launch Saturday and we collectively came up with a hypothesis. Please shoot it down if you can:

My understanding: If you're using a barometric altimeter (vs. an accelerometer based one), the pressure reading is taken by a membrane. If this membrane were to accumulate the tiniest bit of humidity, sitting in your house, and then you walk outside and sit at Sterling in the 24-degree weather for 2 hrs, the humidity would freeze. The membrane would become brittle and could not sense the pressure change.

You may want to write a note to a few of the mfrs, to see if they agree. Also, you may want to check if any of the altimeters that worked properly were accelerometer based.

Just a SWAG hypothesis....
__________________
 
That can very well be the reason? My thought was that the battery just cold too cold? like my car on a Cold winter morning it goes chug chug chug then starts. As the altimeters don’t supply a tone of voltage to the ematch in the 1st place AND the key part "Not" for very Long! I'm thinking it just wasn’t enough juice to light the ematch?
 
https://data.energizer.com/PDFs/alkaline_appman.pdf

You can expect a significant reduction in the performance of alkaline batteries when the temperature drops below freezing.

I didn't want to get stuck on the snow covered "road" through the farm field with my FWD sedan--so I stayed home and worked on converting an old Superroc to a camera carrying rocket.
 
Pressure sensors, at least the Motorola/Freescale parts, are protected by a gel coating. See figure 2 in the MPXA4115 data sheet for a picture. So if frost formed it would not be on the sensing element itself.

CATO held a launch in even colder weather on 21 January. Did similar problems happen then?
 
Does the user manual say anything about operating below sealevel or large temprature swings?

I looked up the METAR data from Sunday for my local airport and noticed that the air pressure was low (between 1002.1mb and 1011.3mb) while the air pressure for sealevel was higher for those same times (1002.8mb and 1011.9mb) I think atleast one altimeter(PML Co-Pilot?) says not to use it above 25,000 feet or below sealevel.

This was pulled from the PML Co-Pilot instructions on their site:

Barometric Limit Alarm
The Co-Pilot also features a Barometric Limit Alarm. The continuous sounding of the beeper easily identifies this alarm mode.
While the Co-Pilot is in the pre-launch mode it tests the barometric sensor reading for basic integrity. If the reading is below 0' MSL
or above 14000' MSL the alarm will sound. This extreme reading indicates a failed sensor (unless of course you’re attempting to
launch from those base elevations; if that is the case you cannot do so as the Co-Pilot will not operate).

Also, from the PerfectFlite MAWD manual:

Do not expose altimeter to sudden temperature changes prior to
operation. The resulting circuit drift could cause premature ejection.

For METAR data, see: https://adds.aviationweather.noaa.gov/metars/ More than likely you'll want the translated version unless you can read METAR data directly (pilots can, most others need it translated) You'll also need to know the airport code. For example, most larger airports use a 3 letter code (O'Hare is ORD) but that is the truncated version. You'll need to know the full 4 letter code. O'Hare is KORD (most large airports just add a K in the front) If you don't know the full 4 letter version, more than likely you'll be able to find it via google.

-Aaron
 
CATO held a launch in even colder weather on 21 January. Did similar problems happen then?

There was not a whole lot of electronics at that launch. We noticed this time there was a weirdly high failure rate

Does the user manual say anything about operating below sealevel or large temprature swings?

I looked in the Co-Pilot manual and could not find a operating temperature range. That was what triggered the discussion.

I did not notice the failure alert and need to test that soon.
 
Does the user manual say anything about operating below sealevel or large temprature swings?

I looked in the Co-Pilot manual and could not find a operating temperature range. That was what triggered the discussion.

I did not notice the failure alert and need to test that soon.


From Missile works manual for RRC2x (rev c):

  • Always allow the unit and the battery system to adjust to ambient temperature conditions prior to connecting,arming and flying.
  • Avoid exposure of an armed unit to high intensity light (including direct sunlight), heat, cold, wind, or other extreme environmental conditions.

That manual also states the same thing about below sea-level as the PML-CoPilot. Not odd since it is the same altimeter in different form factor.
 
I had launched my horizon at this one and have 2 altimeters a PF Maud and an RRC2 the RRC2 fired the drouge charge but not the main. The PF Maud did not fire ether charge. Both altimeters had 9.6 volt Nickel hydride batteries charged the night before.

I posted on the other thread on this but after reading this post I see more info to things that lead up to it. I didn't think about the batteries, though new and fresh charged. I have seen strange things with batteries and temperatures before. The rocket was stored in my house so it was an extreme change in temp plus being in the truck with the heat on. It was only out of the truck for less than a half hour before it was launched.

I think there was a few factors stated here are the cause of the failures. When I got the rocket home and brought it in the house it was instantly covered in condensation. I was reading about the mars lander and they use a heater in there electronics to keep them stable, batteries must be a priority also. You know they are using space and efficiency carefully.

I think a Gizmo is called for here lol. I bet with a board that could be stacked on top of the altimeter could be made into a heater. A 9 volt battery could heat nichrome wire and controlled with a 555 timer be made to keep it at a low watt rate. Just a rough thought on it lol!
 
I wonder, if I just wrapped one of those chemical hand warmer pads in a Ziploc and tossed it in the AVBAY, would it help?
 
I wonder, if I just wrapped one of those chemical hand warmer pads in a Ziploc and tossed it in the AVBAY, would it help?

If that (temp) is the problem, a small light bulb in the alt bay should do the trick.
 
I got a few lights and sockets from the rat shack and I am going to see what it does for temp and how long it last. I also have an indoor out door thermometer so I can see the difference from in the bay to outside of it.

Al, I have some of those hand warmers, I will test them out too.
 
Aren't the Barometric altimeters suppose to be temperature compensating, or is that only with the better models?


JD

Does the user manual say anything about operating below sealevel or large temprature swings?

I looked up the METAR data from Sunday for my local airport and noticed that the air pressure was low (between 1002.1mb and 1011.3mb) while the air pressure for sealevel was higher for those same times (1002.8mb and 1011.9mb) I think atleast one altimeter(PML Co-Pilot?) says not to use it above 25,000 feet or below sealevel.

This was pulled from the PML Co-Pilot instructions on their site:





-Aaron
 
Aren't the Barometric altimeters suppose to be temperature compensating, or is that only with the better models?


JD

Yes they are. Those same sensors are used in automotive MAF sensors and they have to work in a wide range of air intake temps that a car might see or you will throw an emissions fault check engine light.

Based on pure unadulterated speculation I am leaning towards a battery, capacitor or other chip (less likely) being affected by the cold.

Edit: Also the 0 MSL limit is crazy. It is very easy to get high pressure at close to sea level altitude to push the pressure above standard sea level pressure. If there is roll over or sign problem in the code this could be responsible for the strange failures.
 
Yes they are. Those same sensors are used in automotive MAF sensors and they have to work in a wide range of air intake temps that a car might see or you will throw an emissions fault check engine light.

Based on pure unadulterated speculation I am leaning towards a battery, capacitor or other chip (less likely) being affected by the cold.

Edit: Also the 0 MSL limit is crazy. It is very easy to get high pressure at close to sea level altitude to push the pressure above standard sea level pressure. If there is roll over or sign problem in the code this could be responsible for the strange failures.
I second your speculation that there is a temperature sensitive component other than the pressure sensor in the altimeter, or that there is a firmware programing error in the altimeter.

Most modern altimeters draw little power when recording data: most like the RRC2-mini and the MAWD draw 10 ma in normal operations. The issue is whether or not the altimeter will brown out when a pyro event is triggered.

An e-match is going to draw several amps when initiated, and if the uC is not brownout protected, the battery voltage will drop and uC may reset or go into an undefined state. (It is important to note that voltage is the critical factor for the uC, not current.) If the occurs both FETs might be switched on and the pyros activated or not depending on the available current. (It is important to note that current, not voltage determines if the e-match fires.)

This could be a battery issue. An 8-cell 9.6 volt NiMH transistor battery form-factor battery is probably not as good as a 6-cell 7.2 NiMH transistor battery form-factor battery which will supply more current because it has a lower impedence when used in a single battery altimeter configuration. Pyros fired at higher voltage draw more current and drop the battery voltage by a greater amount than those fired at a lower voltage, so the higher voltage, higher impedence battery being asked to supply more current than the lower voltage lower impedence battery whihch is never a good situation to be in. In cold weather you ideally want to use two batteries: one for the flight computer and a second for the pyros and the one for the pyros needs to be a low impedence battery.

Additionally I might have some concern about the temperature ratings of the capacitors and the chips. While most chips perform just fine below the minimum rated temperature, elecrolytic capacitors can have issues, particularly if they were ones manufactured after the capacitor plague of the late 90's.

Lastly it's always possible that there is a firmware error. No altimeter should be using absolute pressure alone to determine altitude AGL. The pressure ratio of the pressure at altitude vs the pressure on the ground can be modeled precisely with the US Atmosphere to yield altitude AGL, and the ratio should be used to avoid problems due to the +/-~6% atmospheric pressure variability due to weather on a given day.

Bob
 
Funny you should use that analogy, my car has that problem & I have been chasing for awhile. The part changer ( mechanic) wants allot for a stupid part that I already replaced 2 years ago.


JD



Yes they are. Those same sensors are used in automotive MAF sensors and they have to work in a wide range of air intake temps that a car might see or you will throw an emissions fault check engine light.

Based on pure unadulterated speculation I am leaning towards a battery, capacitor or other chip (less likely) being affected by the cold.

Edit: Also the 0 MSL limit is crazy. It is very easy to get high pressure at close to sea level altitude to push the pressure above standard sea level pressure. If there is roll over or sign problem in the code this could be responsible for the strange failures.
 
I'm willing to bet that our altimeter failures were due to LOW current caused by COLD Batteries! MY suggestion? Get one of those Hunter type Gel packs that you Break and they heat up OR one of Those Back pain Patches that heat up and wrap or tape it over the battery while IN the E-bay.
 
Normal electrolytics should be just fine in the weather you encountered--but Tantalums are much better if you are going to fly on the coldest days of winter in Connecticut, which typically bottom out at around -5 degrees Fahrenheit.

Another suspect may be power connections involving plastic--plastic stiffens up at low temperatures. I've broken a bunch of plastic stuff, including the PVC jacket of coaxial cable, trying to use ham radio gear in cold New England weather. I doubt altimeters can handle intermittent connections.
 
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