Accuracy Of Aerotech RMS Drillable Motor Delay Times

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lakeroadster

When in doubt... build hell-for-stout!
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I'm wading into unknown territory. For those of you who have experience with drilling delays on RMS motors, if you carefully drill the delay per Aerotechs instructions, how accurate are the delay times?

+/- 1 second?
+/- 2 seconds?

Thanks in advance.
 
I'm wading into unknown territory. For those of you who have experience with drilling delays on RMS motors, if you carefully drill the delay per Aerotechs instructions, how accurate are the delay times?

+/- 1 second?
+/- 2 seconds?

Thanks in advance.
As accurate as any other AT delay, the delay composition is the same. Drilling the delay "carefully" will get you x-seconds off the delay but the allowable +or- tolerance of the delay remains remains....clear as mud right? (and probably not the answer hoped for)
 
I'm wading into unknown territory. For those of you who have experience with drilling delays on RMS motors, if you carefully drill the delay per Aerotechs instructions, how accurate are the delay times?

+/- 1 second?
+/- 2 seconds?

Thanks in advance.
Here’s the standard they’re tested against:
NFPA 1125 — 8.2.7(1)(b) No time delay shall be measured to have a variation greater than 1.5 seconds or 20 percent (whichever is greater, but not to exceed 3 seconds) from the labeled value.

But keep in mind that pressure affects how fast the delay grain burns and the total length of the delay grain is burning while the motor is burning, unlike end burning black powder motors. If a motor burns half a second longer than tested the delay grain could easily lose a couple seconds of delay time after burnout.
 
From experience most are very close to the designed delay times. There is variation in all delays and good to plan for this.
 
If you really care, it might be worth looking at your altimeter data and measuring the previous delay, in order to close the feedback loop and get dialed in. Presumably, delays from the same production lot with the same storage history launched under reasonably similar conditions will give reasonably similar performance.
 
Unless it's a a very old motor or a long burn, I find motor delays to be very accurate. I drill mine using the old method of a 3/16" drill bit and a machinists ruler to the desired delay time. Most early or late ejection I see are caused by choosing the wrong delay for the rocket and/or the conditions.
 
I've never used one myself, but I have seen experienced people get excellent results using the tool.
 
The delay times are certified at sea level. Delays burning at higher elevation will burn longer due to the lower ambient air pressure, sometimes significantly longer depending on the average flight altitude.
Since I'm at 8,200 feet, is there an adjustment factor I should use?

I guess if there isn't I could always do a bench test and burn one as an offering to the Gods of HPR....
 
Since I'm at 8,200 feet, is there an adjustment factor I should use?

I guess if there isn't I could always do a bench test and burn one as an offering to the Gods of HPR....
It has been done. 🔥
Several years ago Allen Whitmore and I conducted some experiments involving three full length Aerotech delay grains. They were separated as exactly into two pieces as possible and he burned three halves at his altitude (about 400’ MSL) and I burned the other three halves at my altitude (over a mile MSL). In this way we were both burning sections from the same full length grain, without any concern about being from different lots.
We timed the burning from the time one end ignited until sparks emerged from the other end. I used an app called Video Stopwatch which allowed me to put markers down and then see the time elapsed between markers.
The delay grains burned 8% longer at my altitude than at his. The difference was very consistent. Allen published the results as part of a report on variability of delay grains that Allen submitted to the Tripoli Report and the results (more accurately than my memory can do) are there for all Tripoli members to read.

I believe that at your altitude you would see a similar increase, perhaps 12-13% longer than at sea level.

But, what this really highlighted is that even though the delay material burned at a very consistent rate, there are a lot of other things that affect the duration of the delay grain when used in a rocket.
First, the burn duration of most rocket motors is affected in the same way. At higher altitudes they burn at a slightly slower rate. Now that ambient pressure difference is quickly made insignificant by the high pressure within a rocket motor, but its effect is not zero.
Also, the burn rate of a delay grain varies enormously during the “life cycle” of a rocket motor. In a BP motor (which is an end burner) the delay grain doesn’t ignite until the propellant has completed burning. It’s ignited by the tail end of the propellant.
But almost all APCP motors have a core as part of their geometry which means the delay grain is burning the entire time the propellant is burning. The high pressure of the rocket motor means that the portion of the delay grain that burns while the propellant is burning burns at somewhere around five times the rate that it burns once the motor internal pressure has returned to approximately ambient. If something happens to cause a rocket motor to burn 1/5 second longer, that’s a full second that is removed from the portion of the delay grain that’s intended to burn after the motor burns out.
Similarly, if the motor burns faster than designed, the delay will burn longer afterwards.
Finally, if the delay grain isn’t ignited at exactly the same time as the the propellant that can really throw a wrench into the works. That sometimes happens because a person still has some assembly lubricant on their fingers when they handle the delay.
The fact is, that it’s amazing that delays burn as consistently as they do in rocket motors. I don’t think a person has any practical reason to expect that a delay grain will be closer than one or two seconds of the targeted duration, but that really is close enough.
The other thing is that I have noticed that my results with delay grains are now much more consistent than they were when I first started out. I remember being upset about bonus delays. I don’t see that happening for myself anymore. I believe my techniques are more consistent than twenty some years ago.
Finally, if you truly want accuracy in timing, use an altimeter to control deployment.
 
It has been done. 🔥
Several years ago Allen Whitmore and I conducted some experiments involving three full length Aerotech delay grains. They were separated as exactly into two pieces as possible and he burned three halves at his altitude (about 400’ MSL) and I burned the other three halves at my altitude (over a mile MSL). In this way we were both burning sections from the same full length grain, without any concern about being from different lots.
We timed the burning from the time one end ignited until sparks emerged from the other end. I used an app called Video Stopwatch which allowed me to put markers down and then see the time elapsed between markers.
The delay grains burned 8% longer at my altitude than at his. The difference was very consistent. Allen published the results as part of a report on variability of delay grains that Allen submitted to the Tripoli Report and the results (more accurately than my memory can do) are there for all Tripoli members to read.

I believe that at your altitude you would see a similar increase, perhaps 12-13% longer than at sea level.

But, what this really highlighted is that even though the delay material burned at a very consistent rate, there are a lot of other things that affect the duration of the delay grain when used in a rocket.
First, the burn duration of most rocket motors is affected in the same way. At higher altitudes they burn at a slightly slower rate. Now that ambient pressure difference is quickly made insignificant by the high pressure within a rocket motor, but its effect is not zero.
Also, the burn rate of a delay grain varies enormously during the “life cycle” of a rocket motor. In a BP motor (which is an end burner) the delay grain doesn’t ignite until the propellant has completed burning. It’s ignited by the tail end of the propellant.
But almost all APCP motors have a core as part of their geometry which means the delay grain is burning the entire time the propellant is burning. The high pressure of the rocket motor means that the portion of the delay grain that burns while the propellant is burning burns at somewhere around five times the rate that it burns once the motor internal pressure has returned to approximately ambient. If something happens to cause a rocket motor to burn 1/5 second longer, that’s a full second that is removed from the portion of the delay grain that’s intended to burn after the motor burns out.
Similarly, if the motor burns faster than designed, the delay will burn longer afterwards.
Finally, if the delay grain isn’t ignited at exactly the same time as the the propellant that can really throw a wrench into the works. That sometimes happens because a person still has some assembly lubricant on their fingers when they handle the delay.
The fact is, that it’s amazing that delays burn as consistently as they do in rocket motors. I don’t think a person has any practical reason to expect that a delay grain will be closer than one or two seconds of the targeted duration, but that really is close enough.
The other thing is that I have noticed that my results with delay grains are now much more consistent than they were when I first started out. I remember being upset about bonus delays. I don’t see that happening for myself anymore. I believe my techniques are more consistent than twenty some years ago.
Finally, if you truly want accuracy in timing, use an altimeter to control deployment.
A lot to digest here.
Thanks for taking the time to explain all this Steve. :computer:
 
First, the burn duration of most rocket motors is affected in the same way. At higher altitudes they burn at a slightly slower rate. Now that ambient pressure difference is quickly made insignificant by the high pressure within a rocket motor, but its effect is not zero.
Has this been actually measured? Theoretically, there shouldn't be a difference in chamber pressure if there's a de laval nozzle producing a choked flow, but I suppose theory and practice don't always align.

TP
 
Has this been actually measured? Theoretically, there shouldn't be a difference in chamber pressure if there's a de laval nozzle producing a choked flow, but I suppose theory and practice don't always align.

TP
Where’s the embarrassed emoji? There it is: 😳
I don’t know if it has been measured and you caught me making an assumption beyond the extent of my knowledge, so maybe I’m wrong.
 
Has this been actually measured? Theoretically, there shouldn't be a difference in chamber pressure if there's a de laval nozzle producing a choked flow, but I suppose theory and practice don't always align.

TP
Several factors can affect chamber pressure. Temperature, propellant burn rate, propellant composition, throat diameter, throat erosion rate are the primary ones.
 
I'm starting to understand why electronics play such a big role in HP Rocketry... measuring altitude with an accurate device, and deploying recovery using said device, provides a much higher level of accuracy than assuming the longevity of burning propellants.
I think it was my third or forth zipper/broken shock cord that made me come to the same conclusion. That was on my L1 rocket. Added an avbay and a Stratologger and never looked back. Still flying my Nuke Pro Max "Duke Nukem".
 

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