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  1. #1
    Join Date
    20th January 2009
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    Salem, MA
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    http://www.motorcato.org/

    Malfunctioning Engine Statistical Survey (MESS) has a new home http://www.motorcato.org/

    The Malfunctioning Engine Statistical Survey (MESS) is a joint organization program that allows NAR Standards & Testing, Tripoli Motor Testing and the CAR Motor Certification Committee to track field trends in the reliability of sport rocket motors. Please use this new website http://www.motorcato.org/ to report all Malfunctioning Engines and obtain the latest Manufacturer's Safety Notices.

    Bob

    Last edited by bobkrech; 3rd May 2013 at 02:32 PM.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    18th March 2012
    Location
    Huntsville, AL
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    9,095
    I find it interesting how this was posted 25 minutes ago and it has 2000+ views...


    Matt, Tripoli #14257
    L1 11/13/16
    L2 2/25/17
    L3 Spring 2018....
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  3. #3
    Join Date
    18th July 2009
    Location
    "Central" NJ
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    787
    Quote Originally Posted by blackbrandt View Post
    I find it interesting how this was posted 25 minutes ago and it has 2000+ views...

    Everyone flies motors, wether MMX or O. Its one of them hobby-wide things that almost (not including EX) everybody needs to /should know about.
    Tom
    NAR #83620 L2 soon to be L3 :rolleyes:

  4. #4
    Join Date
    19th January 2009
    Location
    Eugene, OR
    Posts
    588
    If you have suggestions for improving the motorcato.org website, please send them my way.

    John

  5. #5
    Join Date
    27th November 2011
    Location
    Eastern Canada
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    2,185
    I get this message when I click on the link:

    Ouch!

    We're working on some issues, our site will be back online be end of day 10/9/2013. Thaanks for your patience.
    What's up with that, Oct 9th was a few days ago? Anyway, I recently flew a motor that CATO'd. I hope it will back online soon so I can report it.
    CAR S 1096 Level 3 | My YouTube channel
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  6. #6
    Join Date
    20th January 2009
    Location
    Salem, MA
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    It's being fixed. The NAR website is being "fixed" but it appears that they broke something that was working.

    Sorry about that.

    Bob

  7. #7
    Join Date
    18th January 2009
    Location
    Saugus, MA
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    Quote Originally Posted by rocketgeek101 View Post
    I recently flew a motor that CATO'd. I hope it will back online soon so I can report it.

    You can still use the MESS form on the NAR website.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    19th January 2009
    Location
    Eugene, OR
    Posts
    588
    The motorcato.org website issue has been corrected.

    John

  9. #9
    Join Date
    10th January 2012
    Location
    Athens-- No, the other one, in SE Ohio
    Posts
    1,320
    I find this an interesting topic, and one that I NEVER concidered before buying a lot of unused, unopened low power sport rocket engines off a closing hobby shop.
    How do I find out if any of the 17 packages that I have bought as one large lot, are part of a recall?
    Is there a master list or website that I should be checking? Or is the concern solely for higher power engines and the more advanced end of the hobby?
    "What else am I going to do with all this trivia I have stored up in my head?" -- Mark Evanier, Jack Kirby biographer, circa 1996

  10. #10
    Join Date
    19th January 2009
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    8,470
    Model Rocket Motors are very rearely "recalled".

    There have been a few that were decertified and those notices are listed in the "chronological list of motor certification announcements issued by NAR Standards & Testing" section of the NAR website.

    http://www.nar.org/SandT/STchrono.html

    I know that the very old Estes E15 motors are highly suspect as are any C5-3 motors made with a manufacturing year code of "X".

    All other small motors are fine for decades and decades and decades of storage at normal temperatures. I just bought over a thousand motors from a large distributor who had a very old oversupply of Estes mini motor bulk packs. I knew they would be fine and I flew an assortment from the 4 different date codes that I noted in the large purchase and they all worked great.

    We often have folks show up at club launches with Estes motors from the late 1970's and they work fine.

    For Estes motors to fail, they need to have a manufacturing defect (built in since they were made - which is very rare) or they need to be exposed to severe temperature cycling which affects the ability of the cardboard casing to "hold onto" the propellant grain formed inside when the motor was made. And then you typically need to fire the motor 75F colder than the top temperature that it ever experienced. And even then, not all motors will fail - usually that is worse for the larger sized motors and not for the small motors.

    See explanation below at bottom of my signature.




    Quote Originally Posted by Kirk G View Post
    I find this an interesting topic, and one that I NEVER concidered before buying a lot of unused, unopened low power sport rocket engines off a closing hobby shop.
    How do I find out if any of the 17 packages that I have bought as one large lot, are part of a recall?
    Is there a master list or website that I should be checking? Or is the concern solely for higher power engines and the more advanced end of the hobby?

  11. #11
    Join Date
    21st October 2013
    Posts
    245
    Quote Originally Posted by shreadvector View Post
    For Estes motors to fail, they need to have a manufacturing defect (built in since they were made - which is very rare) or they need to be exposed to severe temperature cycling which affects the ability of the cardboard casing to "hold onto" the propellant grain formed inside when the motor was made. And then you typically need to fire the motor 75F colder than the top temperature that it ever experienced. And even then, not all motors will fail - usually that is worse for the larger sized motors and not for the small motors.
    I thought that you could also damage a BP motor by dropping it, or is that a misconception on my part? As a child, I remember "destroying" (by soaking them in water) Estes engines if I detected lose propellant in the package. Was I being overly cautious? (I never did experience a CATO.)

  12. #12
    Join Date
    19th January 2009
    Location
    Southern California
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    8,470
    Dropping them does nothing (OK, the most that can happen is that part of the clay cap on the delay might get dislodged). Proven by scientific method in several R&D reports. You must hit them HARD with a hammer to crack the grain.


    And it is "cato" and not "CATO".

    It has never been an acronym, it has always been shorthand slang. See my signature for explanation of the term.
    Quote Originally Posted by himitsu View Post
    I thought that you could also damage a BP motor by dropping it, or is that a misconception on my part? As a child, I remember "destroying" (by soaking them in water) Estes engines if I detected lose propellant in the package. Was I being overly cautious? (I never did experience a CATO.)

  13. #13
    Join Date
    21st October 2013
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    245
    Quote Originally Posted by shreadvector View Post
    Dropping them does nothing (OK, the most that can happen is that part of the clay cap on the delay might get dislodged). Proven by scientific method in several R&D reports. You must hit them HARD with a hammer to crack the grain.


    And it is "cato" and not "CATO".

    It has never been an acronym, it has always been shorthand slang. See my signature for explanation of the term.
    Ah, then that was probably broken clay I saw in the package, and not propellant. Thanks for dispelling TWO of my misconceptions!

  14. #14
    Join Date
    5th March 2017
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    Pittsboro, NC
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    429
    Is the MESS report only for HPR-sized engines or does it cover A through D sized engines as well?
    NAR# 103899

    "As I hurtled through space, one thought kept crossing my mind—every part of this rocket was supplied by the lowest bidder".
    — John Glenn, Jr.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    18th January 2009
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    11,705
    all of them
    Dick Stafford
    The member formerly known as the Pointy-Haired Moderator.
    The Original Rocket Dungeon
    Volunteer compiler of product news for ROCKETS Magazine

  16. #16
    Join Date
    23rd July 2011
    Location
    Butte, MT
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    And for a wide range of problems, not just catos. If you find a problem with the instructions or if you receive a motor that has quality control problems, we need to know those kind of things also.
    The other day someone told me he only turns in MESS reports when he doesn’t receive satisfactory customer service. That’s exactly the wrong attitude. MESS reports are for the benefit of all flyers, not a means of exacting revenge.


    Steve Shannon
    Steve Shannon
    L3CC, TAP, Director, Tripoli Rocketry Association

  17. #17
    Join Date
    5th March 2017
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    Pittsboro, NC
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    Quote Originally Posted by rstaff3 View Post
    all of them
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Shannon View Post
    And for a wide range of problems, not just catos. If you find a problem with the instructions or if you receive a motor that has quality control problems, we need to know those kind of things also.
    The other day someone told me he only turns in MESS reports when he doesn’t receive satisfactory customer service. That’s exactly the wrong attitude. MESS reports are for the benefit of all flyers, not a means of exacting revenge.


    Steve Shannon
    Thanks for clarifying. I've had abysmal luck with the mini motors (e.g. 1/2A3-2T and A10-3T) exploding and destroying my small glider engine pods 3 times in two consecutive launchings. Not very good odds.
    NAR# 103899

    "As I hurtled through space, one thought kept crossing my mind—every part of this rocket was supplied by the lowest bidder".
    — John Glenn, Jr.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    11th January 2013
    Location
    S.Tpa
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    883
    Not to beat a dead horse into the ground regarding Estes E9 / E12 catos - But rereading this thread and the current E12-0's thread , it got me wondering a few things ?
    1) Is there a list somewhere of the accumulated mess reports that can be viewed ?
    2) It appears this mess list has been gathering data since at least 2013- does it go back further than that- record wise ?
    3) At what point does it become more cost effective for Estes to actually DO something about known issues, rather than keep replacing kits and motors ?

    Dont get me wrong , I have had 3 E9 failures in the last 5 or 6 years (see avatar pic) and Estes has more than made them right. Heck one was a scratch built , not even their kit - and they gave me a rocket of choice plus replacement motors I like the ease and cost of the E9 and have several rockets that fly really well on them, but not enough to risk another bird. Shame really.
    I have gone to find myself, If I return before I get back- Keep me here.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    17th February 2018
    Location
    NY
    Posts
    7
    I have been out of the sport for 40 years, just found my old motor stash of FSI F-100 motors and some Enerjet. Do you think they will work after 40 years in storage?

  20. #20
    Join Date
    30th January 2016
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    US > OK > NE
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    What kind of storage? That's the key, old barn? Guest room closet?

  21. #21
    Join Date
    23rd July 2011
    Location
    Butte, MT
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy Greene View Post
    Not to beat a dead horse into the ground regarding Estes E9 / E12 catos - But rereading this thread and the current E12-0's thread , it got me wondering a few things ?
    1) Is there a list somewhere of the accumulated mess reports that can be viewed ?
    2) It appears this mess list has been gathering data since at least 2013- does it go back further than that- record wise ?
    3) At what point does it become more cost effective for Estes to actually DO something about known issues, rather than keep replacing kits and motors ?

    Dont get me wrong , I have had 3 E9 failures in the last 5 or 6 years (see avatar pic) and Estes has more than made them right. Heck one was a scratch built , not even their kit - and they gave me a rocket of choice plus replacement motors I like the ease and cost of the E9 and have several rockets that fly really well on them, but not enough to risk another bird. Shame really.
    Andy,
    All of the MESS submissions accumulate in a single database. Copies of that database are sent to the chairs of the three organizations’ motor testing committees.
    The database is not available outside of that group. I think the reason for that is because it is very incomplete and inconsistent. For one thing, all it represents is the number of reported failures without saying anything about how many of each motor type has been sold. It may be difficult to draw a correct conclusion.
    Although I’ve seen the data, I don’t remember how far back it goes.
    As I recall, the anecdotal reports of E9 failures on TRF far outnumber those in the database.
    We three organizations will be having a meeting in April. MESS Reports are on the agenda but I doubt we’ll come to a conclusion but we might be able to begin the discussion.
    Steve
    Steve Shannon
    L3CC, TAP, Director, Tripoli Rocketry Association

  22. #22
    Join Date
    11th January 2013
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    S.Tpa
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Shannon View Post
    Andy,
    All of the MESS submissions accumulate in a single database. Copies of that database are sent to the chairs of the three organizations’ motor testing committees.
    The database is not available outside of that group. I think the reason for that is because it is very incomplete and inconsistent. For one thing, all it represents is the number of reported failures without saying anything about how many of each motor type has been sold. It may be difficult to draw a correct conclusion.
    Although I’ve seen the data, I don’t remember how far back it goes.
    As I recall, the anecdotal reports of E9 failures on TRF far outnumber those in the database.
    We three organizations will be having a meeting in April. MESS Reports are on the agenda but I doubt we’ll come to a conclusion but we might be able to begin the discussion.
    Steve
    That certainly is a long overdue start Steve , thank you for the reply .
    I have gone to find myself, If I return before I get back- Keep me here.

  23. #23
    Join Date
    17th February 2018
    Location
    NY
    Posts
    7
    dhbarr
    They were stored in a closet

  24. #24
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    30th January 2016
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    US > OK > NE
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    Quote Originally Posted by ALPHAROCKETGUY View Post
    dhbarr
    They were stored in a closet
    If I had 40yo FSI motors in a house closet, I wouldn't hesitate to put them back in the sky where they belong.

  25. #25
    Join Date
    17th February 2018
    Location
    NY
    Posts
    7
    They were the highest power I could get my hands on back then.


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