Experimental and adventurous spirit

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Tonimus

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Greetings, everyone! I'm still pretty new around the forum here. Just getting back into rocketry after quite a dry spell. I first got into it about 20 year ago and even that recently, people were building strange things, launching them with all manner of motors. Anything you could think of got a motor strapped to it and would be launched. Little stuff, big stuff... We used to do stuff that would be considered "dangerous" by todays standards. I see a lot of cautionary remarks floating around. Anyone with enough sense is going to have a reasonable amount of caution when sticking the equivalent of an e-match in a tube of black powder and setting it off.

I used to see fins shredded, recovery failures, catos, etc. at every big launch I went to. It was part of the learning process. I understand that the internet is spreading a lot of knowledge around, but nothing compares to first hand experience when building something with your own hands, especially when it's something you've modified or built yourself. There's always that "will it work?" factor.

So I ask of you, where has the experimental and adventurous spirit gone? Is everyone really worried about what might happen? Are there still people out there who don't see a failure as a bad thing, but an opportunity to learn? And I'm not talking about you experimental motor guys.
 
Anything you could think of got a motor strapped to it and would be launched.
That still happens at BALLS launches. I'm not sure it is the good thing you make it sound like, however; one man's adventurous is another's foolhardy. Maybe the hobby has grown past fireworks and people are trying to do more interesting things?
 
Greetings, everyone! I'm still pretty new around the forum here. Just getting back into rocketry after quite a dry spell. I first got into it about 20 year ago and even that recently, people were building strange things, launching them with all manner of motors. Anything you could think of got a motor strapped to it and would be launched. Little stuff, big stuff... We used to do stuff that would be considered "dangerous" by todays standards. I see a lot of cautionary remarks floating around. Anyone with enough sense is going to have a reasonable amount of caution when sticking the equivalent of an e-match in a tube of black powder and setting it off.

I used to see fins shredded, recovery failures, catos, etc. at every big launch I went to. It was part of the learning process. I understand that the internet is spreading a lot of knowledge around, but nothing compares to first hand experience when building something with your own hands, especially when it's something you've modified or built yourself. There's always that "will it work?" factor.

So I ask of you, where has the experimental and adventurous spirit gone? Is everyone really worried about what might happen? Are there still people out there who don't see a failure as a bad thing, but an opportunity to learn? And I'm not talking about you experimental motor guys.

It's a matter of risk versus reward... and the unavoidable fact that we DO live in a more litigious, more scrutinized society nowadays...

The "adventurous spirit" is still there, if you know where to look for it, and depending on how you define it. If you define it as "shoving a bigger motor in it and seeing what happens" or other such stuff that smells of the "hey Bubba, hold my beer and watch this" kind of a$$-grabber-y that some folks seem to equate to doing something "experimental", then yeah, that's pretty well frowned upon by the "rocket hobbyist community". Unfortunately, the internet and YouTube and even the so-called "science-y channels" coverage of rocket activities is full of that stuff (regular and responsible "scientific experimentation" forms of rocketry are "too mundane" for their purposes) and unfortunately, the pro-nanny-state ambulance-chasing news media and lawyers and regulators are always splashing some story or other on the news about some *idiot* somewhere that managed to blow his hands off, or burn himself to death, or blow his house up, or burn down his house, or the authorities did some huge SWAT-type bomb-squad operation to prevent it because "Bubba had 'huge' amounts of 'dangerous chemicals, rocket fuels, and explosives" in his basement or garage or whatever, and therefore was some sort of menace to society...

In short, we don't need that kind of "experimentation". That's not a "spirit of adventure", it's a$$-grabbing stunts.

There's outlets for experimentation, as you pointed out, with the amateur motor makers the most obvious... and approved methods, materials, and procedures to participate in those activities... There's also plenty of "adventures" that occur on the rocket range, regardless of power level, that occurs simply because "you can't anticipate everything". The unexpected can and does happen, sometimes for good, or ill. The internet is a wonderful tool to dispense knowledge, information, and experience, and like any other tool can be used for good or bad. There's also the fact that we DO have a LOT more knowledge, understanding, and tools, methods, materials, and designs widely available now than were commonly available in the past, and thus less "true innovation" or 'stuff that's never been tried before' now than in the past, when LOTS of things were 'untested territory' or had "never been done" before...

There's also less tolerance of having "not done your homework" and taking advantage of such tools, information, knowledge, experience, etc... IOW, if you do something stupid or dangerous that pretty much everyone knows (or reasonably SHOULD know) is stupid or dangerous, it's probably going to be and frankly SHOULD be called stupid or dangerous... very little truly "new" stupid or dangerous stuff is actually done-- most of the time something that nearly turned out VERY bad was either 1) poor judgment from the get-go, usually at several levels or by several people and/or 2) could have been avoided by following established rules, procedures, practices, design, etc...

I'd say there's PLENTY of room for true experimentation-- "heads up" flights or test flights done in private with limited spectators to minimize risk of truly "innovative" or "highly experimental" designs, methods, materials, etc. can be a very good thing, providing one has done their homework and gathered all available information beforehand and objectively weighed their approach and expectations and have a reasonable assurance of succeeding at the desired goal in a safe manner... OTOH, I don't think a$$-grabber-y can be too strongly discouraged, censured, or opposed...

Later! OL JR :)
 
most of the time something that nearly turned out VERY bad was either 1) poor judgment from the get-go, usually at several levels or by several people and/or 2) could have been avoided by following established rules, procedures, practices, design, etc...

I'd say there's PLENTY of room for true experimentation-- "heads up" flights or test flights done in private with limited spectators to minimize risk of truly "innovative" or "highly experimental" designs, methods, materials, etc. can be a very good thing, providing one has done their homework and gathered all available information beforehand and objectively weighed their approach and expectations and have a reasonable assurance of succeeding at the desired goal in a safe manner... OTOH, I don't think a$$-grabber-y can be too strongly discouraged, censured, or opposed...

I'm glad Eintein, Oppenheimer, Von Braun, Tessla, Columbus, Galileo, etc. all followed established procedures. I didn't think I was building doll houses here.
 
I still have Adventures.
I just don't always talk about them on the Internet.:)
 
I'm glad Eintein, Oppenheimer, Von Braun, Tessla, Columbus, Galileo, etc. all followed established procedures. I didn't think I was building doll houses here.

What are you talking about??

Those guys broke new ground to be certain, but they didn't do stupid stuff-- that'd get you dead pretty quick (and nearly did anyway in Von Braun and Goddard's cases due to motor explosions and "hard starts" and other mishaps in testing... but they did the best they could to protect themselves and others, not just doing stuff "willy-nilly". There's always an element of risk in doing ANYTHING new, to be sure... Madame Curie would agree on that point... as would the bomb design scientists that died "tickling the dragon's tail" to determine the amount of fissile material required for the first atom bomb "pit" who received a lethal dose of radiation from an accident... Even they took precautions, but as you say, accidents happen... some danger is part of the equation and can never be totally eliminated.

Who said anything about "building dollhouses" or whatever?? I take it you consider anything with a high likelihood of failure should be allowed to fly regardless to "see what happens" and that's your definition of "experimentation" and therefore "fun"... If this is so, I certainly hope you don't come to any launches on my farm...

All I'm saying is there's a right way and a wrong way to do stuff... smart and not-so-smart if you will... then there's the downright idiotic... too much of that goes on anyway...

Later! OL JR :)
 
I take it you consider anything with a high likelihood of failure should be allowed to fly regardless to "see what happens" and that's your definition of "experimentation" and therefore "fun"...

Who defines somethings likelihood of failure? And yes, I do think anything should be allowed to be flown. Simply being unproven to you doesn't negate them. As you said in a prior post about "heads up flights" and "flights done in private" can validate those things, but how can you prove to someone at a big launch that it works? Video it? People still won't believe. If an RSO thinks something is unsafe, it doesn't matter what you say.

Sometimes things break. Sometimes things don't go as planned. Even the most proven designs, most prolific motors can still fail. It's all unsafe to a certain extent. Who are you or I to say whether or not something will work?
 
Who defines somethings likelihood of failure? And yes, I do think anything should be allowed to be flown. Simply being unproven to you doesn't negate them. As you said in a prior post about "heads up flights" and "flights done in private" can validate those things, but how can you prove to someone at a big launch that it works? Video it? People still won't believe. If an RSO thinks something is unsafe, it doesn't matter what you say.

Sometimes things break. Sometimes things don't go as planned. Even the most proven designs, most prolific motors can still fail. It's all unsafe to a certain extent. Who are you or I to say whether or not something will work?

That's about what I thought...

We're not gonna convince each other... but your definition of "rocketry" is the kind I cringe at, and the kind that will ultimately bring the hammer down on us all...

Good luck with your endeavors... sounds like you're gonna need it, and heaven help anybody around you...

Later! OL JR :)
 
I imagine that you're the kind of guy who scowls as people pass you on the freeway, eh? Or someone who takes comfort in gun free zones?
 
Who defines somethings likelihood of failure? And yes, I do think anything should be allowed to be flown. Simply being unproven to you doesn't negate them. As you said in a prior post about "heads up flights" and "flights done in private" can validate those things, but how can you prove to someone at a big launch that it works? Video it? People still won't believe. If an RSO thinks something is unsafe, it doesn't matter what you say.

Sometimes things break. Sometimes things don't go as planned. Even the most proven designs, most prolific motors can still fail. It's all unsafe to a certain extent. Who are you or I to say whether or not something will work?

I'm all for experimentation and a spirit of adventure, but if you want to do things that others feel are unreasonably risky, you can't expect them to shoulder the responsibility and liability for you. The rules at a club launch are designed to provide a safe environment for all participants, and to protect the club and landowners from liability. If you want to do something not allowed at a particular club launch, arrange for a site yourself, or look for a club launch that has other precautions (like an endless expanse of desert) that limit the risks involved when a sketchy flight goes awry and who will be wiling to allow your experiment.
 
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I was visualizing more a train wreck, but this it good too!
 
Tonimus, is there a specific example you have in mind? Was there a particular incidient in which you felt a club turned down a flyer who should have been allowed to fly a particular rocket? Without some kind of specifics, this thread is too vague, and the discussion won't go anywhere.
 
The one that I'm thinking of, was a 3 stage puller arrangement on an egglofter. RSO didn't like it.
 
Who defines somethings likelihood of failure? And yes, I do think anything should be allowed to be flown. Simply being unproven to you doesn't negate them. As you said in a prior post about "heads up flights" and "flights done in private" can validate those things, but how can you prove to someone at a big launch that it works? Video it? People still won't believe. If an RSO thinks something is unsafe, it doesn't matter what you say.

Sometimes things break. Sometimes things don't go as planned. Even the most proven designs, most prolific motors can still fail. It's all unsafe to a certain extent. Who are you or I to say whether or not something will work?

First I COMPLETELY agree with everything Luke has already posted...He actually bet me to posting almost exactly the same comments.

Most important for unknowing people like yourself. if you haven't done the homework, and haven't tested your unproven vehicle then it should NEVER be Allowed to fly at any public Launch period.
Like Von Braun, Tessla and Goddard, ALL unproven designs, methods and procedures must be Proven in ISOLATION. with as few persons and property in the way as possible. ONLY after a design is flight proven should "Anything" be allowed to fly where the pubic and property can be put at Unnecessary risk.
It is attitudes as expressed earlier that make our hobby more likely to be over regulated or banded because some think it's their "right" to do or fly whatever the heck they dream up. This is not Adventure or Experimental it's like the old Hill Billy Fools famous last words Hey Ya'll...Watch this!..
Come on get a grip! Our is a scientific hobby. We are supposed to do our do diligence to insure EVERYTHING we fly is as safe and fight worthy as possible. Sure stuff happens but I find its almost always the same thoughtless thing that also causes most auto accidents.....That NUT behind the Wheel.
I personally Love Odd-Rocs and fly some pretty Off the wall stuff. The stranger the better but I NEVER EVER launch an unproven design at a public attended launch. I hope we have convinced you The Experimentation and Adventure is still here...it's just Proven before it's presented to the public. Much like every other Scientific Discipline.
 
I imagine that you're the kind of guy who scowls as people pass you on the freeway, eh? Or someone who takes comfort in gun free zones?

No, not at all... but you're being deliberately vague and defensive.

Look, I'm all for RESPONSIBLE experimentation. That is to say, experimentation done in the CORRECT way, with a REASONABLE expectation of success, in accordance with recognized scientific principles and methodology, is a great thing. Just doing something for the sake of "seeing what happens" without a reasonable expectation of success, or a full appreciation and acknowledgement of the possible risks, and responsible actions to prevent or minimize the risk of death, injury, or destruction to others who aren't involved in your "research", is just PLAIN STUPID.

That's part of the reason we have such a litigious and restrictive environment as we have nowdays.
The rocketry hobby organizations have fought a long, hard fought, and hard won lawsuit against regulators that would just as soon see our activities outlawed entirely, despite the hard-won and long-standing safety record that has taken decades of rocketry done "the right way" and a lot of difficult negotiation and hard work by the founders and leaders of this hobby to establish.

So, yeah, if that makes me some kind of mamby-pamby for thinking that irresponsible idiot yahoos should be opposed in every way possible to prevent them from killing our hobby just so they can do a$$-grabbing stunts, so be it...

I stand in good company.

If you want to experiment responsibly and do things correctly with a reasonable expectation of success (rather than just "seeing what happens" because you really have no idea whether whatever it is your doing will work or not, which means it probably won't, historically speaking) then you're in the right place with the right crowd, and I'll be the first to welcome you.

If you're just as a$$-grabbing stunt jockey looking for cheap thrills and calling it "scientific" somehow because it involves rocketry, you'd do better elsewhere or on YouTube or World's Dumbest or any of the other showcases of modern human stupidity...

Later! OL JR :)
 
Tonimus, is there a specific example you have in mind? Was there a particular incidient in which you felt a club turned down a flyer who should have been allowed to fly a particular rocket? Without some kind of specifics, this thread is too vague, and the discussion won't go anywhere.

Quite correct...

If he has a specific example I'm all ears... I think most people would be and everyone (including me) is trying to keep an open mind...

But I don't know of many folks around here who will outright support stupidity or stunts that endanger people, property, or place their club, organization, or hobby in the line of fire of liability for a stupid stunt gone awry...

If there's specifics, I'd LOVE to hear them!

Later! OL JR :)
 
The one that I'm thinking of, was a 3 stage puller arrangement on an egglofter. RSO didn't like it.

What power, weight, etc?? Where was the launch?? How big was the field?? How many in attendance?? What were the conditions?? Had it been test flown before?? Simulated successfully and fully documented the CP/CG and all of that??

The RSO is the final word at a launch on the safety of something. Yeah, they MUST err on the side of caution. Don't blame the RSO if the flyer didn't do his homework, or built something that just doesn't measure up to a given club's safety requirements, he's just doing his job-- which is to PROTECT the flyers, bystanders, participants, spectators, the flying field landowner, surrounding property owners, the club itself, the national organization that charters their club, and the hobby in general from an incident that could create a substantial liability or irreparable damage or harm.

Nobody has a God-given right to fly ANYTHING they want at ANY club, period. Nobody's saying the rocket in question can NEVER be flown-- just that it can't be flown at THAT VENUE. Without knowing all the facts, it's hard to say if that call is unreasonable or not. The person that was turned down can fly their rocket anytime they want-- they just have to find their own field and obtain permission to use it, get the necessary permissions or waivers and such, and conduct their own launch. They can also bear full legal liability and responsibility for any damages or injuries caused by their launch as well (unless their a NAR member flying in accordance with the MRSC as the insurance coverage stipulates to be in full force and effect).

That's how REAL rocketry operates... (or is supposed to operate).
As for stunts, that's another matter...

Later! OL JR :)
 
...where were you 2 when Ky Michaelson flew the sh!tter?

That was before my time... at least my BARdom... LOL:)

Course I consider the snowmobile crap to be no better... at least the flying porta-crapper had SOME chance of flying-- if it held together...

The snowmobile was launched with the full knowledge that it had NO chance of flying anything approaching "right"...

Cest les vis...

Later! OL JR :)
 
What power, weight, etc?? Where was the launch?? How big was the field?? How many in attendance?? What were the conditions?? Had it been test flown before?? Simulated successfully and fully documented the CP/CG and all of that??

This was 15 some odd years ago. If I recall correctly, it was right around 11 ounces, D12 powered, dry lakebed outside of Las Vegas, about 100 people, sunny with clear skies, minimal wind. It had been tested. Don't know if it was simmed or not. And I could tell by looking at it that the CG was way forward of the CP.

And of course you don't have a RIGHT to launch something at a group event, but there should be a little leeway for something tested but out of the ordinary.
 
This was 15 some odd years ago. If I recall correctly, it was right around 11 ounces, D12 powered, dry lakebed outside of Las Vegas, about 100 people, sunny with clear skies, minimal wind. It had been tested. Don't know if it was simmed or not. And I could tell by looking at it that the CG was way forward of the CP.

And of course you don't have a RIGHT to launch something at a group event, but there should be a little leeway for something tested but out of the ordinary.

Tonimus:
As One who fly's a good deal of Strange stuff. I ALWAY's have my Documentation and Calculations with me on the field should an RSO or Range manager need to satisfy him or her self that the model I've presented has flown before and is or has been stable and safely flown with what motor.
Anyone who wishes to fly "off the Wall" Odd-Rocs or weird designs IS Responsible for PROVING their vehicle has a reasonable chance of having a safe and stable flight maintaining a flight path that WILL NOT endanger spectators, persons or property.

Lacking such concrete written information any RSO in the nation has the right and responsibility to NOT LET strange vehicles fly at any public attended launch. He might offer to perhaps let the contraption fly After the general public has vacated the field for the day or if a multi day event offer to fly is Very Early in the morning before the public and most of the range crew has arrived.
IN ALL CASES IT MUST ALWAYS BE: SAFTEY FIRST! period.

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This was 15 some odd years ago. If I recall correctly, it was right around 11 ounces, D12 powered, dry lakebed outside of Las Vegas, about 100 people, sunny with clear skies, minimal wind. It had been tested. Don't know if it was simmed or not. And I could tell by looking at it that the CG was way forward of the CP.

And of course you don't have a RIGHT to launch something at a group event, but there should be a little leeway for something tested but out of the ordinary.

Okay... Sounds fairly legit, but here's the thing... It was an organized launch. The sponsoring organization/club's RSO still has the final say. Maybe it was the concern over the 100 spectators. You say you could "tell by looking" the CG/CP was okay. No better documentation than that?? There's another concern too... You said it was a "tractor design" or somehow intimated it had forward motors and was some sort of egglofter or something... the problem with the design may have been that when you have the mass concentrated too close together, ie the motor and the payload, that it can create stability problems due to the "moments of inertia" being too short. IOW the thing has a hard time stabilizing in flight due to the mass being concentrated in too short a space. Basically the same reason that short, fat rockets usually need greater stability margins or fin sizes, and steeply swept fins, to ensure stability. It's really hard to say exactly what the problem might have been without a diagram or picture of the rocket in question and a description of the mass distribution. At any rate, the final word from the RSO is it at an organized launch, period. It's just the way things have to be. The alternative is chaos...

That said, it's a big desert... nothing stopping the guy from taking his rocket and his stuff and going elsewhere and launching the thing all on his lonesome, or with a buddy or two. Since it was D powered, it doesn't require a waiver or anything like that. Only thing restricting a flight is the legality of flying in certain locations (burn bans, California, parks department prohibiting rocketry, etc.)

SO what was the big issue?? Was the problem that it wasn't allowed to fly at this club launch, and therefore the flyer didn't think they could fly it EVER, AT ALL?? I have a hard time buying that... Or was the issue more with the flyer's desire to "show off his handiwork" at a club launch in front of 100 spectators-- something that he couldn't accomplish flying the thing on his own by himself??
I have a sneaking suspicion that was the REAL problem...

Of course one should be prepared with any "unusual" design to "prove" the airworthiness of it to the RSO in charge of the range at a launch, if they REALLY want to fly it. Rocksim or OR simulations, previous successful test flights, etc are all good things to be able to show and demonstrate that the thing is safe to fly. Of course, that said, there's STILL the possibility that the RSO may say "no". Some folks DO err more on the side of caution, and perhaps by some other folk's definition are OVERLY cautious, but that's just how it is. If one is flying with a club with someone who's consistently "overcautious" or refuses to let stuff fly that has been demonstrated to be safe, then I'd say that the club has an issue and discussions should be made about replacing said individual, or failing that, one can ALWAYS go fly with a different group or by themselves...

Later and have a good one! OL JR :)
 
I'm glad Eintein, Oppenheimer, Von Braun, Tessla, Columbus, Galileo, etc. all followed established procedures. I didn't think I was building doll houses here.

Funny on your choices of examples. Einstein never published a theory without a lot of supporting calculations. Oppenheimer didn't just grab a bunch of parts, put it together, and call it a bomb; there was a lot of experimenting. Galileo spent years behind a telescope, documenting the movement of heavenly bodies before he said a word. etc. etc etc.
 
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