Dog barf?

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AfterBurners

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How good is this stuff and does it really work as good as they say it does?

Doesn't The Home Depot sell it? Isn't it just fiber glass insulation? I would imagine you can get a pretty big bag for cheap?
 
It works quite well when used correctly but it isn't foolproof. I often use one sheet of Estes style wadding underneath a pile of dogbarf just to be sure nothing leaks. Also, it isn't fiberglass but recycled, shredded, fire retardant, newspaper that is used for insulation, and yes, it is quite cheap. Often people give it away at launched just because they don't want to haul it home again. At the store you can buy a near lifetime supply for less than ten dollars.
 
How good is this stuff and does it really work as good as they say it does?

Doesn't The Home Depot sell it? Isn't it just fiber glass insulation? I would imagine you can get a pretty big bag for cheap?

I thought it was nitrocellulose? Fiberglass will not degrade out in the elements like the nitrocellulose.

Adrian (who also needs to get a bag, wanna split it :eek:)
 
It's not fiberglass. I think it's nothing more than newsprint treated with a fire retardant. I'd give you some for free but shipping costs more than the dogbarf.
 
Find a broken bag in the store. There are usually a couple. Make an offer to the store manager to take it off his hands for 50%. Nobody likes buying the broken bag, even if it still has 98% of the stuff still in it. They will likely be happy to discount it for you to get it off their hands!
 
I thought it was nitrocellulose? Fiberglass will not degrade out in the elements like the nitrocellulose.

Adrian (who also needs to get a bag, wanna split it :eek:)

Cellulose, yes, as in fire retardant treated paper. Nitrocellulose is also known as guncotton, a whole if different bang for your buck. You really don't want to get the two confused.
 
It works quite well when used correctly but it isn't foolproof. I often use one sheet of Estes style wadding underneath a pile of dogbarf just to be sure nothing leaks. Also, it isn't fiberglass but recycled, shredded, fire retardant, newspaper that is used for insulation, and yes, it is quite cheap. Often people give it away at launched just because they don't want to haul it home again. At the store you can buy a near lifetime supply for less than ten dollars.

+1 on using a sheet of Estes wadding :)

Dog Barf in action!


Krusty
 
Cellulose, yes, as in fire retardant treated paper. Nitrocellulose is also known as guncotton, a whole if different bang for your buck. You really don't want to get the two confused.


You have to say though, using nitrocellulose as a packing material would make for an interesting deployment.
 
How good is this stuff and does it really work as good as they say it does?

Doesn't The Home Depot sell it? Isn't it just fiber glass insulation? I would imagine you can get a pretty big bag for cheap?

No, it MOST CERTAINLY IS NOT fiberglass insulation!!! NEVER use fiberglass insulation as recovery wadding in a rocket-- the stuff drifts down free of the rocket and wherever it lands, unless you specifically hunt it down and pick it up, assuming you can find it, it will be there FOREVER. It doesn't rot or break down from the elements... even buried it will remain intact. Pillow ticking or mattress stuffing or other such "non-flammable" artificial fiber materials are the same way. Anyone flying on *my* land using that stuff would be disinvited from ever returning, period, and the club could be looking for a new flying field!

"Dog barf" is actually SHREDDED NEWSPAPER (recycled paper waste) broken down into fine bits and then treated with a boric-acid fire retardant material (same stuff basically used to make commercial "Estes" type recovery wadding. Law requires that this insulation material, which is "blown in" to the wall cavities of old homes using a special blower device after cutting a hole in the upper part of the wall between studs with a hole saw, must be treated with fire retardants so it doesn't pose a fire hazard. Note that "flame resistant" materials such as this WILL smolder and char when exposed to a high-temperature ignition source (open flame, etc) but will self-extinguish when the ignition source is removed... they won't support combustion or continue to burn. Essentially, think of it as shredded up Estes wadding.

The stuff comes in big blocks or "bales" wrapped in plastic, and is sold at most big-box home improvement indoor lumberyard type places, as well as traditional lumberyards and building supplies. A damaged bale can usually be had at half price or less-- I got one that a (presumably) dumb kid had speared with the forklift and torn the bag for less than $4 once... A bale of the stuff will last the average rocketeer YEARS if not DECADES... practically a lifetime.

To use it, you usually want to fill a big freezer bag with the stuff to carry it to the launch-- that's probably all you need depending on the size of your rockets and how many flights you expect to get in that day. To use it, I usually just scoop up a handful of the stuff and dump it into the open end of the body tube until it's at least 2-3 times the body diameter deep in the tube... Occasionally you'll have to poke your finger down the tube a bit to get it to drop down, no biggie... You can push it down a little bit, but don't PACK it in TIGHT into the tube-- you want it to be somewhat loose-- loose enough to blow out of the tube when the ejection charge fires, dislodging the nosecone and ejecting the parachute or streamer...

When the ejection charge fires, the loose particles of the shredded paper will capture and trap any burning BP particles, which will cause the bits of paper to char, but they won't "ignite". The shredded paper will capture the hot gases from the ejection and the mass of the dog barf will be blown forward by the ejection charge gas blast, pushing out the parachute and nosecone, then they will usually fly in a thousand directions just like confetti, and gently waft down to the ground on the breeze. Unlike regular Estes "sheet wadding" which remains in a wadded up state like used Kleenex, the dog barf disperses over a large area and practically NOTHING of it is visible on the ground after landing, even when used in LARGE amounts in LARGE rockets... that's the beauty of it (although it deprives me from picking up a supply of used sheet wadding after a club launch on my fields and putting it in my own wadding bag to use myself for the next launch... and yes used wadding is perfectly fine to use again and again until it's too "holey" to be used much anymore-- I generally put the most badly burned stuff on bottom and new(er) sheet wadding on top, when I use sheet wadding-- dog barf can be hard to use in small diameter rockets) That's hardly a bad thing-- not having to clean up the field is pretty nice). Due to the smaller particle size (bits of paper instead of wads) the cellulose insulation (dog barf), like confetti, drops down through the grass to the soil surface, where natural dampness and fungi and bacteria rapidly start decomposing it back into the humus in the soil... even if it lands on top of the grass, rain and wind will easily wash or move the particles down under the grass to the soil surface where it will decompose. Sheet wadding "wads", being larger, will of course take a LOT longer to be washed down or blown down to the soil surface, and be decomposed, which means it's basically a litter issue until it decomposes or is removed. Neither of course hurts the environment, unlike fiberglass insulation or pillow ticking type materials when used for wadding-- in fact, the borate fireproofing solution used to flameproof the dog barf or sheet wadding is water soluble and will wash into the soil, where it's a valuable micronutrient, as most soils in the United States are actually deficient in boron (at least for crops).

Some folks like a little additional 'insurance' using dog barf, and push a sheet of wadding down the rocket first as a "cup" to hold the loose dog barf... if you use 2-3 body diameters long layer of dog barf though, it should be completely unnecessary... some folks will also wrap the parachute in a sheet of wadding, in lieu of the "sheet wadding cup" method (or sometimes as an adjunct to it!) Largely unnecessary...

We've had a number of discussions on reusable and alternative materials and methods for recovery wadding replacement here on the forum-- from leaf lettuce or cabbage or green grass from the field itself, to reusable pistons or plugs, baffles, even Teflon pom-poms and flameproof treated pieces of cloth...

Later and hope this helps! OL JR :)
 
I thought it was nitrocellulose? Fiberglass will not degrade out in the elements like the nitrocellulose.

Adrian (who also needs to get a bag, wanna split it :eek:)

Nitrocellulose is GUNCOTTON, IE a replacement for gunpowder!!! LOL:)

Use that and you'd blow your rocket to kingdom come!

Dog Barf is BORATE or BORIC ACID treated CELLULOSE (shredded recycled newspaper) "blow-in" house insulation...

Later! OL JR :)
 
And a general ROT(Rule Of Thumb) is to loosely pack about a body tube diameters depth of dog barf...I use dog barf in my HPR rockets to protect the main from the ejection charges..Works good..Just don't pack it in so tight as to make a plug...On a lot of my flights when I use dog barf there is still quite a bit of it in the tube that I shake out when I retrieve the rocket..

I bought a bag of it 4 years ago and have hardly put a dent in it!
 
And a general ROT(Rule Of Thumb) is to loosely pack about a body tube diameters depth of dog barf...I use dog barf in my HPR rockets to protect the main from the ejection charges..Works good..Just don't pack it in so tight as to make a plug...On a lot of my flights when I use dog barf there is still quite a bit of it in the tube that I shake out when I retrieve the rocket..

I bought a bag of it 4 years ago and have hardly put a dent in it!

Pantherjohn - and the rest that say a bale of dog bard will last a life time - You guys just anr not building big enough rockets!!!

I am on my second or third bale of the stuff :cyclops:
 
+2 on using a Sheet of Estes wadding below a clump. I don't have it in my attic, but my buddy does, and he just grabs a bagful once and a while from up there. It is also a good place to store the "extra". Just put the pile up there near the scuttle.
 
Side track/hijack
Who came up with the phrasology, "dog barf"? I have a dog. She has gotten sick in the past. Dog barf looks nothing like a dogs barf. Although I must point out, in my experience, there is very little odor associated with either rendition... oddly enough...
-Ken
 
+2 on using a Sheet of Estes wadding below a clump. I don't have it in my attic, but my buddy does, and he just grabs a bagful once and a while from up there. It is also a good place to store the "extra". Just put the pile up there near the scuttle.
I do the same. The goal is to prevent hot ejection gases from being blown through the dog barf which would be loosened by the ejection blast. However, I use crepe paper which by law in the US must be fire retardant. I also use an appropriately large wooden dowel to lightly compress the crepe paper down against the forward motor mount/tube followed by dog barf that is also lightly compressed. This forms a piston which, depending upon the amount of free space in the rocket recovery system area will move forward compressing the air in the recovery system area, beginning to blow off the nose cone and blow out the parachute and shock cord before the piston even reaches them.

Before trusting that your crepe paper is actually fire retardant, test it as described in message #24 below.
 
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Check your attic. You may already have a supply of it up there. It easy to tell if it's fiberglass or dogbarf. Fiberglass insulation is made of of fine threads of glass, and dogbarf is small chunks of shredded and treated paper. Of course, if you don't want to reduce the effectiveness of your attic insulation you can buy a bag, divide up a portion of it into baggies, and spread the rest in your attic.
 
Side track/hijack
Who came up with the phrasology, "dog barf"? I have a dog. She has gotten sick in the past. Dog barf looks nothing like a dogs barf. Although I must point out, in my experience, there is very little odor associated with either rendition... oddly enough...
-Ken

Has your dog ever eaten a newspaper and then puked?? Probably why... LOL:)

Later! OL JR :)
 
I do the same. The goal is to prevent hot ejection gases from being blown through the dog barf which would be loosened by the ejection blast. However, I use crepe paper which by law in the US must be fire retardant. I also use an appropriately large wooden dowel to lightly compress the crepe paper down against the forward motor mount/tube followed by dog barf that is also lightly compressed. This forms a piston which, depending upon the amount of free space in the rocket recovery system area will move forward compressing the air in the recovery system area, beginning to blow off the nose cone and blow out the parachute and shock cord before the piston even reaches them.

Buyer beware... yes, law requires crepe paper sold in the US to be flameproofed, but there is plenty of evidence that some cheap Chinese stuff being sold here isn't at all, or isn't very flameproof...

Best test a piece beforehand to make sure... hold a lighter or lit match to it... it should smolder and burn but when the flame is removed, it should immediately go out... If it continues to burn or smolder and char for more than a few seconds, act accordingly...

Later! OL JR :)
 
We never buy dog barf. We just wait for some noob to buy themselves a bale and then figure out they won't EVER use 10% of it and that it is too big to store in the garage so they usually just donate it to the club. :)

This is more true than you might guess.

--Lance.
 
Another picture of dog barf in action. This is from a video I got last year with a keychain camera taped to the nose cone.

ec1.jpg
 
[video=youtube;og1jtmLwR78]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=og1jtmLwR78[/video]
 
Cellulose, yes, as in fire retardant treated paper. Nitrocellulose is also known as guncotton, a whole if different bang for your buck. You really don't want to get the two confused.

Oops. Yeah, that cellulose stuff... :facepalm:

OK, too many late nights in a row.

Adrian
 
We never buy dog barf. We just wait for some noob to buy themselves a bale and then figure out they won't EVER use 10% of it and that it is too big to store in the garage so they usually just donate it to the club. :)

This is more true than you might guess.

--Lance.

Very true. I have lots of it in ziplock bags that I use for cushions between rockets in my rocket boxes.

...

...

...


I've never bought any.
 
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