Dr. Zooch's Little Joe Build

For my final in history this year, I was given the decades 1940, and 1950. I was selected to be in charge of the science portion. Turns out, the first of many Little Joe flights started in 59'. I took this as an opertunity to pick myself up one of Dr. Zooch's Little Joes. I am enjoying this build very much.

To start of, I read the directions a few times, and I must say, they are quite humerous. Made my laugh, and is making the build fun. The wrap sheet is a cardboard sheet with designs printed along it. Reading through the first few parts, it was very straighforward, nothing too complicated, until I get to the launch tower. So far, I have one dowel cut out to use.

After reading the directions, I began with the motor mount. After cutting the slit in the directed area, I taped down the hook with a piece of electric tape. The centering rings were a bit too wide, so to mount them correctly and straight, I tape the side oppisite to which I applied some wood glue. I then set it down and waited for each ring to dry.



While this was being done, I started the percise task of cutting out the balsa fins. I first checked the thickness of the balsa, turned out to be 3/32" balsa wood. Luckily, I had a left over sheet of balsa exactly this width from my past scratch build. I used this to cut out the fins. This was the first time I cut them out with no help from anyone. It took me about a half hour to cut out all 4. I then lined them all up, and sanded them down. They ended up very close in dimentions to eachother. I am overal very satisfied with these fins. I also had enough balsa to make a few back-ups. Note: the image below is before the sanding.



After the motor mount had been glued together, I was happy to find it fit really nicely in the provided BT-60 tube. I tested the fit of a C6-5 Estes engine, all was looking good. As the instructions recomended, I took some white glue, smeared it inside with my finger. I first made a deceant sized circe around the inside, then smeared it so it was evenly distributed. I took the MM, and inserted the forward ring, then applied some wood glue around the aft ring. I pushed the MM in, and then wiped down the wood glue that seeped out from the aft ring. After about an hour of drying it was ready to be handled, and I was pleased with the result.

Waking up the next day, I cut out the BT wrap. I was a bit worried about applying the glue. The instructions were clear about not having too much glue, but making sure to apply it to the edges. This is my advice, and worked out great for me. I put a small amount of glue in the center, then using my finger slid it the sides making a large rectangle from side to side of the wrap. I then went around, near the edge, not on it and made a line of glue. I took my finger, and evened it out. I made sure to get all of the edges without applying to much. I feared when I put it on that the glue would come out and "glump" at the edges. I was assuming this was the mess the instructions forshadowed. Luckily, when applying the wrap, I lined it up just right with that very, very, very, important line. (I had to sleep on the decision of where to put it.) The wrap went on great, and after about 10 mins of holding it down, it was ready to sit.



This is currently where I am at. I figured this was the easy part, and I felt confident in the fact that I could do it, and I could not be more pleased.

I know there are people who will question my ability to be able to build this rocket. I know the tower is going to be hard. I have a good gift of patience, and will take my time on it. I will be getting extra rods for when I mess up. I am ready for it, and luckily, this issue is not a flight terminating issue, just cosmetic, which gives me hope.

Any advise would be awesome, especialy with the tower!

Cool. Will you get to bring it into class?

you are doing a GREAT job so far! Dr. Zooch kits are really lots of fun! As for the Redstone tower, just take your time with it and you will be fine. the neat thing is, when you finish it will be a great flier! I have built a number of Zooch kits, I am working on his Soyuz right now, and they all fly great!

keep up the good work and post more pictures if you can!

Orion14ed said:

For my final in history this year, I was given the decades 1940, and 1950. I was selected to be in charge of the science portion. Turns out, the first of many Little Joe flights started in 59'. I took this as an opertunity to pick myself up one of Dr. Zooch's Little Joes. I am enjoying this build very much.

To start of, I read the directions a few times, and I must say, they are quite humerous. Made my laugh, and is making the build fun. The wrap sheet is a cardboard sheet with designs printed along it. Reading through the first few parts, it was very straighforward, nothing too complicated, until I get to the launch tower. So far, I have one dowel cut out to use.

After reading the directions, I began with the motor mount. After cutting the slit in the directed area, I taped down the hook with a piece of electric tape. The centering rings were a bit too wide, so to mount them correctly and straight, I tape the side oppisite to which I applied some wood glue. I then set it down and waited for each ring to dry.

View attachment 124503

While this was being done, I started the percise task of cutting out the balsa fins. I first checked the thickness of the balsa, turned out to be 3/32" balsa wood. Luckily, I had a left over sheet of balsa exactly this width from my past scratch build. I used this to cut out the fins. This was the first time I cut them out with no help from anyone. It took me about a half hour to cut out all 4. I then lined them all up, and sanded them down. They ended up very close in dimentions to eachother. I am overal very satisfied with these fins. I also had enough balsa to make a few back-ups. Note: the image below is before the sanding.

View attachment 124504

After the motor mount had been glued together, I was happy to find it fit really nicely in the provided BT-60 tube. I tested the fit of a C6-5 Estes engine, all was looking good. As the instructions recomended, I took some white glue, smeared it inside with my finger. I first made a deceant sized circe around the inside, then smeared it so it was evenly distributed. I took the MM, and inserted the forward ring, then applied some wood glue around the aft ring. I pushed the MM in, and then wiped down the wood glue that seeped out from the aft ring. After about an hour of drying it was ready to be handled, and I was pleased with the result.

Waking up the next day, I cut out the BT wrap. I was a bit worried about applying the glue. The instructions were clear about not having too much glue, but making sure to apply it to the edges. This is my advice, and worked out great for me. I put a small amount of glue in the center, then using my finger slid it the sides making a large rectangle from side to side of the wrap. I then went around, near the edge, not on it and made a line of glue. I took my finger, and evened it out. I made sure to get all of the edges without applying to much. I feared when I put it on that the glue would come out and "glump" at the edges. I was assuming this was the mess the instructions forshadowed. Luckily, when applying the wrap, I lined it up just right with that very, very, very, important line. (I had to sleep on the decision of where to put it.) The wrap went on great, and after about 10 mins of holding it down, it was ready to sit.

View attachment 124505

This is currently where I am at. I figured this was the easy part, and I felt confident in the fact that I could do it, and I could not be more pleased.

I know there are people who will question my ability to be able to build this rocket. I know the tower is going to be hard. I have a good gift of patience, and will take my time on it. I will be getting extra rods for when I mess up. I am ready for it, and luckily, this issue is not a flight terminating issue, just cosmetic, which gives me hope.

Any advise would be awesome, especialy with the tower!

Click to expand...

BeerorKid said:

Cool. Will you get to bring it into class?

Click to expand...

Yup! I also am really go with video editing, so I will doing a sorta "news-cast" of sorts for my class. I plan on mixing up some actual futage and the model's launch to make a "live-commentary" over it explaining why it is being flown and things along that line. Should be interesting.

@NJRick Thanks! I have cut some of the rods already, and am excited to get started.

I am hoping to have some silver paint by tomorrow for the fins. I am planning on using a wider lug... It's dimensions fit the same rod my Ventris is slated to fly on. (Its one "tier" lower than 1/4" an inch in basic rods. Will have the exact measurement tomorrow.) I am also considering using some left over epoxy for the fins. It recommends wood glue, would epoxy suffice?

Quick question... did you STACK SAND those fins??

Reason I ask is, and maybe it's the perspective of the photograph playing a trick on me, but those fins DON'T look like they're the exact same size... I have the Zooch LJ but I haven't built it, so I'm not familiar with the instructions...

Did the kit come with a fin template that you cut out and trace around onto the balsa sheet to make the fins?? Every Zooch kit I've seen does... looks like you got the wood grain going the right direction, but for some reason they look like the one on the right is about 30% larger the ones on the left...

Usually you cut out all the fins, and then stack them up like playing cards one atop another so they're all perfectly aligned, then pinch the stack tightly between your fingers, and with a sheet of 220 grit sandpaper laying flat on the table, stack-sand the fins all tightly pinched together back and forth until the biggest ones are sanded down even with the smallest one you cut out... you keep them tightly pinched together as you flip the stack over to sand them down on EVERY SIDE EDGE until they're ALL EXACTLY the same size... If you happen to drop the stack or they slip, simply put the side you've already sanded down on the table and push all the fins down on that side until they're all completely even again and finish sanding.

When you're done, you're GUARANTEED that all the fins will be EXACTLY the same size...

I've built a couple of the towers for the Zooch kits at this scale (50th Anniversary Dr. Zooch Friendship 7 Mercury Atlas, "Freedom 7" BT-50 Mercury Redstone, both build threads of which are on the forum here... a quick search will turn them up) So if you need any pictures or anything to help guide you through, my build threads have a ton of pics... and of course if you have any questions, I'd be happy to help if I can...

Later and KUTGW!!! Looking forward to your progress and good luck with your project! OL JR

Orion14ed said:

Yup! I also am really go with video editing, so I will doing a sorta "news-cast" of sorts for my class. I plan on mixing up some actual futage and the model's launch to make a "live-commentary" over it explaining why it is being flown and things along that line. Should be interesting.

@NJRick Thanks! I have cut some of the rods already, and am excited to get started.

I am hoping to have some silver paint by tomorrow for the fins. I am planning on using a wider lug... It's dimensions fit the same rod my Ventris is slated to fly on. (Its one "tier" lower than 1/4" an inch in basic rods. Will have the exact measurement tomorrow.) I am also considering using some left over epoxy for the fins. It recommends wood glue, would epoxy suffice?

Click to expand...

IMHO epoxy is more trouble than it's worth... wood glue and white glue works perfectly well for these kits, and it's a lot easier to work with.

Also, I'd recommend against going with the 3/16 launch lug... there's simply no need for it on a rocket this size... it'll stick out like a sore thumb and look lousy... Don't you have a standard 1/8 inch launch rod?? If not you can get one at the lumberyard in regular mild steel (which rusts, but you can clean it up with steel wool before launch) for about two bucks... IMHO that will look MUCH better than going with an oversize, fat lug on a small rocket like this...

Good luck on your build and it's coming along nicely! OL JR

@Luke

To your first question yes, that picture was taken right after I cut out all of the fins. They all are very, very close to eachother after I sanded them down. From my point of view its as close as I can get them without completely sanding them down too small so I mess with the demensions or breaking the wood, 3/32" balsa is a little weak and breaks easily. (I will get a 2nd picture...)

There is some small issues with it, I can sand it down some more, but they seem very close. EDIT: Took some time sanded them down, they are as good as I am ever going to get them. (Not shown in this image.)

Before I paint/glue I will be trying to get the leading edges and the touching edge perfect. In these pictures I am not holding them exactly right to eachother. I did use your method, but was using 60-grit. Its the only stuff I have atm. Will be picking up more later.

As for the rod, the reason I was wondering is that I have a nice 4' rod for my Ventris. I do have the standard 1/8 but its much shorter. (Since this is a small rocket, the affect should be less noticable but I digress...)

The reason I ask about epoxy is that I have some left over, and I know it would take very little to bond it nice and straight onto the BT. I could use wood glue, but the one I have now takes a good hour to even harden enough to handle without it falling. Would be a bit diffifult to hold it for an hour, or trust it to stay up and not fall over. I can try though. White glue for fillets. Actualy, I have some clear so I probably will end up using that just for the added complection bonus.

And I also have an IPad now, so I can get much more pictures for you guys

Thanks!

EDIT: Sanded them down much better than in those images. They are in my opinion looking great. I painted 3 silver, and one orange. How do you suggest doing the stripes on the end of the fins?

Orion14ed said:

@Luke

To your first question yes, that picture was taken right after I cut out all of the fins. They all are very, very close to eachother after I sanded them down. From my point of view its as close as I can get them without completely sanding them down too small so I mess with the demensions or breaking the wood, 3/32" balsa is a little weak and breaks easily. (I will get a 2nd picture...)
View attachment 124545
There is some small issues with it, I can sand it down some more, but they seem very close. EDIT: Took some time sanded them down, they are as good as I am ever going to get them. (Not shown in this image.)
View attachment 124544
Before I paint/glue I will be trying to get the leading edges and the touching edge perfect. In these pictures I am not holding them exactly right to eachother. I did use your method, but was using 60-grit. Its the only stuff I have atm. Will be picking up more later.

As for the rod, the reason I was wondering is that I have a nice 4' rod for my Ventris. I do have the standard 1/8 but its much shorter. (Since this is a small rocket, the affect should be less noticable but I digress...)

The reason I ask about epoxy is that I have some left over, and I know it would take very little to bond it nice and straight onto the BT. I could use wood glue, but the one I have now takes a good hour to even harden enough to handle without it falling. Would be a bit diffifult to hold it for an hour, or trust it to stay up and not fall over. I can try though. White glue for fillets. Actualy, I have some clear so I probably will end up using that just for the added complection bonus.

And I also have an IPad now, so I can get much more pictures for you guys

Thanks!

EDIT: Sanded them down much better than in those images. They are in my opinion looking great. I painted 3 silver, and one orange. How do you suggest doing the stripes on the end of the fins?

Click to expand...

Okay... I guess it was the camera lens or something causing a distortion, forced perspective, or something making the fins look wonky... Looks good. 60 grit is pretty darn coarse... the only thing I've seen in rocketry that 60 grit is particularly good for is turning nosecones, when you need to take off a LOT of material fast to round out a balsa or foam block to rough out the shape, then switching to progressively finer and finer grits of sandpaper as you "sneak up" on the final finished size and shape of the nosecone... Other than that, I have about probably 30 different types/grits of sandpaper in my box, but there's basically TWO grits that I end up using 95% of the time-- 220 grit for rough shape sanding, and 400 grit wet/dry for finish sanding...
Those two I cannot live without, and I'd recommend that if you don't want to buy much sandpaper, buy those two grits/types of paper-- they'll do virtually all of your rocketry work just fine...

You CAN use epoxy, but you'll have to be VERY CAREFUL when using epoxy to bond these fins onto the rocket body with a pre-installed wrap like Dr. Zooch uses... it's not like constructing a different style of rocket, where the fins are glued on, fillets applied, and then the rocket is sanded down, primed, sanded a couple times, and then painted, which covers a multitude of sins if done correctly... with a wrap you basically get ONE SHOT-- if you drip glue on it or the fin wobbles a bit when installed, smearing the glue around, you're done... you can wipe it off, but it WILL leave a tell-tale stain or smear on the paper that will look fugly...

IMHO, the best material for a pre-installed wrap is white glue. It's not the strongest, not as strong as wood glue, but it dries clear and will look better when fins are glued to the pre-wrap covered tube...

If you want to get "near superglue" instantaneous bonding with white glue, use a DOUBLE GLUE JOINT... First, grab an old egg carton of our your refrigerator-- the kind that your dozen eggs come in, foam containers are highly preferable. Invert the egg carton on your work bench, bottom side up... Slit the egg cups using your hobby knife at a right angle to the long axis of the container (perpendicular to the length of the egg carton). Slit the egg cups about halfway down the sides-- about the depth of a standard #11 X-acto blade. Now you've got a handy holding fixture for the fins...

Grab your fins, and when you're ready to glue them on (papered them, painted them, whatever the kit instructions or your own preference for the rocket's construction is) and apply a thin but even layer of white glue to the fin root edge where it will glue to the rocket body tube. Spread it a bit with your finger to make sure the entire surface of the root edge is covered evenly, wipe your finger on paper toweling, and then gently stick the fin into the slit in the egg cup... You can pinch the cups slightly on either end of the cut and it will pop open slightly, slide the fin in, and let go... this will hold the fin like a tiny clamp, perfectly upright and with the root edge nice and level while the glue dries. Grab your other fins and apply glue to each of them just the same, and install them in adjacent egg cup slits in the egg carton, make sure they're level, and allow to dry.

Grab the body tube of the rocket. Presumably the fin lines and stuff will already be marked on the tube and ready to go. If not, follow the kit directions to locate the fins per the instructions. Once you have the lines marked where the fins will go, apply a thin bead of glue where each fin will go... if you're applying glue to a wrap like this Zooch kit, you can use one of the fins with a thin layer of glue applied to the root edge to apply the glue to the tube-- just locate where the fin will go and press the fin against the tube, and lift it back off... it will leave a layer of white glue where the fin will be glued onto the tube. Gently run your finger along either side of that glue line to gently spread it back toward the center, since it tends to squeeze out from under the wood when you push the fin against the tube... Do all four fin locations on the tube this way... don't worry, you just want a VERY THIN layer of glue applied to the tube where each of the four fins will go.

Set the tube aside to dry-- if it's long enough, you can stick it in the 'valley' down the center of the egg carton with the glue-applied end overhanging the end of the carton, to allow the glue to dry. If it's too short, just stand it upright to allow the glue to dry. Make sure that it's a THIN layer of glue so it doesn't run or drip... (a THIN layer of glue is actually stronger than a THICK layer, though that seems counterintuitive, it's true... ) If you used a fin to apply the glue to the tube, spread a thin, even layer of glue on the root edge of that fin and set it aside in the egg carton slit to dry...

After the glue has dried 30 minutes to an hour, you're now ready to attach the fins... don't worry, it actually takes less time to do this process I've outlined than it has for me to type it in... LOL Grab your rocket tube and get it ready to attach the fins, and grab a fin from the egg carton slits... apply ANOTHER, SECOND THIN layer of white glue to the root edge of the fin... about like the first application when you set the fin aside to dry... Once you have a THIN, even coat of glue on the root edge of the fin, grab the tube in one hand and the fin in the other, CAREFULLY ALIGN the fin with the tube, usually at the rearmost end of the root edge FIRST, align the fin with the rear of the tube (or mark or whatever), and touch the rear end of the fin root edge to the tube, align the fin vertically along the length of the root edge with the fin line (so the fin is aligned along the length of the tube) and then gently rock the fin forward into position along the line until the leading edge of the fin root is touching the tube-- make sure the fin is aligned properly with the long axis of the tube and isn't "angled" with respect to the tube. Hold the fin firmly but gently against the tube for 20-30 seconds... Voila, the glue will "lock up" in a matter of seconds and the fin will be "instantly" glued to the tube... Ensure that the fin is sticking STRAIGHT OUT from the tube at a 90 degree angle from the tube center, not "cocked" to either side... run your finger down the length of the root edge/tube surface joint to spread any glue that got squeezed out from under the fin root edge when you pressed it against the tube... if you want, you can apply a SMALL, THIN bead of white glue to the fillet area at this time and spread it gently with your finger, to make the first "mini-fillet" which will spread and join any droplets of glue squeezed out from under the fin when you pressed it agains the tube, making a smooth, even, stronger joint. Do both sides of the fin, using THIN layers ONLY... Don't go crazy and try to do it all at once... thin layers of glue dry VERY QUICKLY whereas thick layers stay goopy and sloppy for HOURS before they dry...

DO the rest of the fins the same way... By the time you get one done, it will be "dry" enough to do the next one... just be careful-- the glue is hard enough to hold the fin on and straight, but it's not fully hardened yet... Once you have all the fins on, check the alignment again in case you bumped anything, and then set the rocket aside with the fins pointing up to allow the glue to dry... give it a couple hours or better yet overnight, and the fins will be locked on permanently...

This is called the DOUBLE-GLUE JOINT, and it's nearly as fast as using superglue, but without the weakness or brittleness of CA glues... the double glue joint is STRONG-- I've had a rocket go sideways at staging, come down and impact horizontally with one fin hitting straight down into the ground, hard enough to obliterate the outer half of the paper-skinned fin to dust on impact, before the fin FINALLY broke off the rocket... more correctly, the fin didn't break off-- the TUBE delaminated, and the outer layers of the tube that the fin was glued to ripped off the underlying layers of the tube-- IOW, the glue joint didn't fail-- it was STRONGER than the balsa fin AND stronger than the tube it was glued to! When the joint is stronger than the materials being bonded, it's POINTLESS trying to get a stronger joint... because the materials around the joint will invariably fail FIRST in such a condition!

Here's pics and instructions on the Double-Glue joint... try it, I think you'll like it... I know I was skeptical the first time I tried it, but after I saw how quick and easy it is, and what it's capable of doing, I now don't use any other method... and it works GREAT with yellow wood glue (even better than with white glue, because wood glue is thicker and stickier...)

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?29228-Dr-Zooch-Rockets-EFT-1-beta-build

The pictures of the double glue joint method is in post #26... along with a pic of the egg crate holder...

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showt...-Rockets-EFT-1-beta-build&p=262338#post262338

Later and good luck! OL JR

Here's a build thread I did on the Zooch Mercury Atlas about this time last year... I came up with a (IMHO) better way of doing the tower than the method in the instructions (which is how I did it on my beta build of the "Freedom 7" Mercury Redstone a year or two before that...)

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showt...cury-Atlas-build&highlight=double+glue+joints

The tower construction starts around Post 21... and there's also some pics and stuff of the double glue joints and other handy things you can use those egg crates for scattered about in the build thread...

Basically, for the tower, I used a piece of wood dowel the same size as the LES motor can dowel in the kit to make a "guide" for holding the legs together and aligned properly while gluing them to the motor can-- this way, everything comes out aligned perfectly and ready to go on the capsule... and no trying to cut out and glue in a tiny triangle of balsa that then after the legs are glued to the motor can has to be 'snapped out' from in between the legs... the tower leg sticks are seated in grooves sanded into the "jig dowel" piece I made, taped in place correctly positioned, and then the LES motor dowel is glued to the top of them in the proper location, and the whole thing is allowed to dry overnight. Then the cross-braces can be glued in per the instructions in the kit very easily, and the tower glued to the capsule normally...

Good luck and hope this helps! OL JR

Wow! I had to read that a few times over, but I get the idea. I must say, it sound quite different from anything I have ever tried. I think I will try some clear "white" glue. So the key is applying just the right amount, and sorta letting the glue harden on both surfaces, the root edge, and the BT before bonding them together? If that is the idea here, then I understand perfectly. Instead of a runny glue like in a normal situation, you have a sorta of "gel" if you will, it sticks better and moves less. The key is getting a little glue in the right spot... I may try this with a left over BT and a left over fin before on my kit. You know, test the waters. But thanks! The images helped a lot. I can tell you really are trying to help, and I find that quite honorable. Thank you once again!

Orion14ed said:

Wow! I had to read that a few times over, but I get the idea. I must say, it sound quite different from anything I have ever tried. I think I will try some clear "white" glue. So the key is applying just the right amount, and sorta letting the glue harden on both surfaces, the root edge, and the BT before bonding them together? If that is the idea here, then I understand perfectly. Instead of a runny glue like in a normal situation, you have a sorta of "gel" if you will, it sticks better and moves less. The key is getting a little glue in the right spot... I may try this with a left over BT and a left over fin before on my kit. You know, test the waters. But thanks! The images helped a lot. I can tell you really are trying to help, and I find that quite honorable. Thank you once again!

Click to expand...

You're welcome... I want you to knock this project out of the park and take a BEAUTIFUL rocket in to your class... so if I can help in some small way, I'm only too glad to try...

There's no real "magic" to it... you don't have to have "just the right amount" of glue... its pretty simple. Just spread a thin layer of glue on the root edge, and let it dry. You basically want to give it 30 minutes to an hour under most conditions AT A MINIMUM to dry before applying the second application of glue and joining the fin to the tube. (that goes for the tube application AND the root application,which is done more or less simultaneously and allowed to dry, THEN the fin has a SECOND thin layer of white glue applied and the fin is immediately joined to the tube).

The key is, the first layer of glue applied to the tube and fin SOAK INTO the wood and paper of the fin and tube, and dries. This dry layer of glue is then well bonded deep into the wood and paper grain of the materials. THEN, the SECOND thin layer of glue bonds the FIRST LAYERS on both the tube and fin root... when the parts are touched together after the second layer of glue is applied, the thin layer of glue from the second application NEAR INSTANTLY bonds the two layers of glue on the two seperate parts TOGETHER into a single, unified piece... it "welds" them together... you only have to hold the parts together long enough for the moisture in the second glue application itself to soften the first layers of glue between the two parts, and form the polymer chains of the "cured" glue... the moisture is drawn from the thin second application of glue into the drier first applications of glue, forming the chemical bonds as the glue proteins link the layers and their components together... hence the short bond setup time, where you hold it a few seconds to let the moisture migrate into the first layers and the glue "set up".

Does that make better sense?? The double-glue joint is nothing new... It's been a recommended technique in G. Harry Stine's "Handbook of Model Rocketry" for at least 40 years, probably a lot longer than that! I know when I was in high school in the 80's, I read his book, considered the 'bible' of model rocketry, probably 3 dozen times, and every time I read that I pooh-poohed it... "how could applying glue and allowing it to dry, then applying MORE glue and gluing the parts together and allowing THAT to dry, POSSIBLY be faster than just gluing the two parts together DIRECTLY the first time??" That was my reasoning...

I didn't try the double-glue joint until about 6 years ago... when I did, talk about a "slap the forehead" moment... all the speed and benefits of an "instant" glue with the strength of good old fashioned wood and white glue (and none of the exposure problems of epoxy, which you DON'T want to get on your skin-- over time it leads to epoxy sensitivity, essentially you become ALLERGIC to epoxy! You always want to wear gloves handling and applying epoxy). After I tried the double-glue joint the first time, I was kinda mad at myself for having done it "the hard way" all those years, just slobbering glue all over the parts and sticking them together, holding them for 30 minutes waiting on the stuff to harden up enough to risk letting go, only to see the fin fall over after letting go, or worse yet, setting the rocket up for the fin to dry and coming back a half hour later to see it had 'leaned over' or done something stupid while the glue was still wet... then having to repeat the process on ALL THE OTHER fins on the rocket and having the SAME PROBLEMS with them...

By all means, try it out on some scrap materials... I think you'll like it... It really works GREAT...

If I can leave you with one bit of advice-- use THIN layers of glue... the first impulse is to slobber on too much glue (been there done that myself) but once you get used to using less glue and realize "that's plenty for the job" you'll find that you can get by with a LOT less glue than you tend to think you need early on... and you'll get STRONGER glue joints for your trouble!

Later and good luck with you project, and POST MORE PICS!!!

OL JR

Orion...you can take what Luke tells you to the bank! I have learned MUCH from this man...he is one of the pro's on this board....and always willing to lend a hand or give some back ground info.

luke strawwalker said:

You're welcome... I want you to knock this project out of the park and take a BEAUTIFUL rocket in to your class... so if I can help in some small way, I'm only too glad to try...

There's no real "magic" to it... you don't have to have "just the right amount" of glue... its pretty simple. Just spread a thin layer of glue on the root edge, and let it dry. You basically want to give it 30 minutes to an hour under most conditions AT A MINIMUM to dry before applying the second application of glue and joining the fin to the tube. (that goes for the tube application AND the root application,which is done more or less simultaneously and allowed to dry, THEN the fin has a SECOND thin layer of white glue applied and the fin is immediately joined to the tube).

The key is, the first layer of glue applied to the tube and fin SOAK INTO the wood and paper of the fin and tube, and dries. This dry layer of glue is then well bonded deep into the wood and paper grain of the materials. THEN, the SECOND thin layer of glue bonds the FIRST LAYERS on both the tube and fin root... when the parts are touched together after the second layer of glue is applied, the thin layer of glue from the second application NEAR INSTANTLY bonds the two layers of glue on the two seperate parts TOGETHER into a single, unified piece... it "welds" them together... you only have to hold the parts together long enough for the moisture in the second glue application itself to soften the first layers of glue between the two parts, and form the polymer chains of the "cured" glue... the moisture is drawn from the thin second application of glue into the drier first applications of glue, forming the chemical bonds as the glue proteins link the layers and their components together... hence the short bond setup time, where you hold it a few seconds to let the moisture migrate into the first layers and the glue "set up".

Does that make better sense?? The double-glue joint is nothing new... It's been a recommended technique in G. Harry Stine's "Handbook of Model Rocketry" for at least 40 years, probably a lot longer than that! I know when I was in high school in the 80's, I read his book, considered the 'bible' of model rocketry, probably 3 dozen times, and every time I read that I pooh-poohed it... "how could applying glue and allowing it to dry, then applying MORE glue and gluing the parts together and allowing THAT to dry, POSSIBLY be faster than just gluing the two parts together DIRECTLY the first time??" That was my reasoning...

I didn't try the double-glue joint until about 6 years ago... when I did, talk about a "slap the forehead" moment... all the speed and benefits of an "instant" glue with the strength of good old fashioned wood and white glue (and none of the exposure problems of epoxy, which you DON'T want to get on your skin-- over time it leads to epoxy sensitivity, essentially you become ALLERGIC to epoxy! You always want to wear gloves handling and applying epoxy). After I tried the double-glue joint the first time, I was kinda mad at myself for having done it "the hard way" all those years, just slobbering glue all over the parts and sticking them together, holding them for 30 minutes waiting on the stuff to harden up enough to risk letting go, only to see the fin fall over after letting go, or worse yet, setting the rocket up for the fin to dry and coming back a half hour later to see it had 'leaned over' or done something stupid while the glue was still wet... then having to repeat the process on ALL THE OTHER fins on the rocket and having the SAME PROBLEMS with them...

By all means, try it out on some scrap materials... I think you'll like it... It really works GREAT...

If I can leave you with one bit of advice-- use THIN layers of glue... the first impulse is to slobber on too much glue (been there done that myself) but once you get used to using less glue and realize "that's plenty for the job" you'll find that you can get by with a LOT less glue than you tend to think you need early on... and you'll get STRONGER glue joints for your trouble!

Later and good luck with you project, and POST MORE PICS!!!

OL JR

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NJRick said:

Orion...you can take what Luke tells you to the bank! I have learned MUCH from this man...he is one of the pro's on this board....and always willing to lend a hand or give some back ground info.

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Thanks for the vote of confidence...

Later! OL JR

Oh, I totally agree! Been looking at other threads, Luke seems to help just about everyone!

Back on track. Today I woke up after about 12 hours of sleep... I mean its spring break... what else is there to do? I started the tower. After cutting the dowel down to what I thought was the correct lengths, I started to glue it together. My first cross beam and horizontal rod were a bit off, to account for this I made a longer 2nd beam. I do not know when my project is due by, maybe next week, or next month, so I have to move swiftly. I ended up with this so far.

Not sure how good it is. I am going to try and pick up some more dowels this size... I checked HL and they had none. Does anyone know the diameter and where I might find some?

Also, since this is going to be the hardest part and take the most time, and since I do not know when to have this done by, I may end up making a "rushed" tower for the project. (I will still try just as hard, but you know... time limits.) Then, make a 2nd one for the finished rocket. If the first one turns out great, like I hope it will I will keep it. Otherwise, I probably will build another just for backup or to replace it completely. Not sure how easy these break. Again, I am not trying to rush it, its just that if I want it to be included, I may have to take less time than I really would like.

I also made the decision to strengthen what I have now instead of later while I had other parts drying. Used a bit of white glue, so far no regrets. Next is to cut out the triangle.

Orion14ed said:

Oh, I totally agree! Been looking at other threads, Luke seems to help just about everyone!

Back on track. Today I woke up after about 12 hours of sleep... I mean its spring break... what else is there to do? I started the tower. After cutting the dowel down to what I thought was the correct lengths, I started to glue it together. My first cross beam and horizontal rod were a bit off, to account for this I made a longer 2nd beam. I do not know when my project is due by, maybe next week, or next month, so I have to move swiftly. I ended up with this so far.
View attachment 124748
Not sure how good it is. I am going to try and pick up some more dowels this size... I checked HL and they had none. Does anyone know the diameter and where I might find some?

Also, since this is going to be the hardest part and take the most time, and since I do not know when to have this done by, I may end up making a "rushed" tower for the project. (I will still try just as hard, but you know... time limits.) Then, make a 2nd one for the finished rocket. If the first one turns out great, like I hope it will I will keep it. Otherwise, I probably will build another just for backup or to replace it completely. Not sure how easy these break. Again, I am not trying to rush it, its just that if I want it to be included, I may have to take less time than I really would like.

I also made the decision to strengthen what I have now instead of later while I had other parts drying. Used a bit of white glue, so far no regrets. Next is to cut out the triangle.

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If you email Wes at Dr. Zooch, he'll probably send you some more dowel sticks for free-- Wes is really good that way... he sends folks duplicate wraps after they mess them up as needed...

That said, it's probably faster to try to find a local source. What size are they?? (I'm guessing around 1/16 inch... do you have calipers to measure them with?? If you don't, its okay... most better hardware stores carry dowels in a variety of sizes... usually down to 1/8 inch, though sometimes I've seen 1/16 doweling in hardware stores... depends on the store.

Barring that, you can always buy a box of toothpicks and cut the ends off with a sharp hobby knife by rolling them under the blade on your cutting mat... works great. You could also get some basswood strips or something (don't bother trying balsa-- its too soft-- you need basswood, which is a lot harder than balsa, or some other hard wood strips) from Hobby Lobby or a local hobby shop and then sand them round... some Zooch kits come with square sticks that you have to "round out" to the proper round profile and size before constructing the tower... it's not very hard, just takes a few minutes and a handy-dandy sheet of 220 sandpaper laid flat on your cutting mat... just rub the stick across the paper under your fingers, turning it some as you go to take the edges off, and work it a few minutes... with a little practice you can turn out wood dowels any size you want pretty easily. On my scratchbuilt BT-80 Saturn V, I got SO into making super-scale detail parts that I started sanding down bamboo skewers, toothpicks, or even basswood strips to the size I needed to exactly duplicate the size of a propellant line fairing or ullage motor or whatever... down to within a few thousandths of an inch... just takes a little time and patience... (and a good caliper-- I got one of those electronic calipers from Harbor Freight for $30 bucks... VERY handy tool!) Course you don't HAVE to have a caliper if you're not going to be building scalers from scratch-- close is good enough... just sand the stick until it's the size you want.

The Little Joe kit is based on a BT-60 tube, correct?? IIRC it is... these might be bamboo skewers-- the kind they stick chicken onto at the Chinese restaurants and broil it or roast it... (yummy!) At any rate, a quick pass through your grocery store should turn up a package of these... I got two bags of them for like a buck apiece about a year or two ago-- EXTREMELY handy to have-- The smaller size is an exact match for the "propellant lines" on a Zooch Shuttle, SLS, and a few other rockets (and I bet for your tower legs as well). These also make VERY handy "glue applicators" down in tubes, and for smoothing out tight areas you can't get a finger into, like if you're gluing three tubes together on Zooch EFT-1 Delta IV Heavy or Zooch Titan III-C/MOL (or the plain Titan III). At any rate, they can be cut, sawed, sanded, whittled, and generally converted into whatever size or shape you need for whatever you're doing. The larger bamboo skewers they sell for shish-ke-bob's also work well for basic round stock... heck I usually swipe an extra pair or two of chopsticks when I eat Chinese and keep them around, as they can easily be used to make parts as well...

The bamboo works very well-- it's harder than a lot of other woods at that size, it can be sanded down very smooth, but being harder, it takes longer to sand to size/shape. I found out making many detail parts for my BT-80 Saturn V that it was usually quicker to whittle the part to the general shape/size I wanted with a sharp hobby knife and then sand the thing down really smooth with 220 grit, rather than trying to round the ends off with sandpaper and take ALL that material off via sanding... the neat thing is, when you're done, the part is REALLY hard and smooth-- and of course glues on easily with wood glue or white glue...

Funny but true story... I used to take a couple kits with me during the summer to my MIL's house in Indiana... she was older and her and my wife would start talking about sewing or quilting or stuff for hours on end, and so having some rockets to work on kept me sane... LOL At any rate, I was building the Zooch Saturn V, and it had three of the same sticks you have there (from the looks of it anyway) for the "cable tunnels" and propellant line fairings, ullage motors, seperation retromotors, and stuff like that on the various stages and interstages... Well, the instructions called for you several times to cut "X" number of pieces off one of the sticks, "Y" length long, and round the ends or sand it to a point, or sand it flat on one side to glue to the rocket as a cable tunnel, or whatever... Somehow or another, I ended up cutting too much off one of the sticks instead of cutting it off the other one that I HAD been cutting pieces off of, and when it came time to make the two LONG cable tunnels on the S-IC first stage, I had one correct length stick, and one stick too short... and a longer bitty piece of stick that should have been shorter yet, had I not cut that piece off the wrong stick... what to do?? I had the rocket nearly finished and ready for painting the details...

SO, I went to a hobby shop up in Bremen, Indiana... unfortunately they didn't have the size sticks I needed... but it got me thinking... so after my hobby shop excursion I went to a local Chinese restaurant there in town for lunch... sure enough, they had the bamboo chicken skewers on the buffet, and the stick was the EXACT SAME SIZE as the bitty piece of stick I brought with me from the kit... So I ate about 4 chicken skewers or so and stuck the sticks in my shirt pocket... finished my lunch and paid and headed back to Mentone to the MIL's house... Betty (my wife) looked at me funny when I sat down at the rocket table and pulled four spent chicken skewer sticks out of my shirt pocket, and started carefully sanding off the remaining chicken bits and outer layer of the stick to get it smooth and dry... (I had nibbled them clean carefully in the restaurant). I then washed them with a little soapy water and took them outside in the sun to dry... after about an hour, I fetched them, picked the best looking one, cut it to the appropriate length, and rounded the ends off on the sandpaper just as the kit specified... sanded it flat on one side, and painted it white per the kit instructions, let it dry, and glued it on the rocket... instant cable tunnel...

I probably have the only Zooch Saturn V in the world that some of its parts started out on a Chinese buffet...
Hahahaha... Even *I* can't tell which one though...

Later and hope this helps! OL JR

@Luke I also checked at Home Depot today, mom went to get an air filter I tagged along. Didn't have it. Next time I am at a store I will look for those sticks... They are quite small. And Wes is really awesome with that sorta stuff, I really didn't want to say anything but my nose-cone wrap was a bit messed up, he is sending me one free of charge. Really nice guy. I didn't want to have anything negative about the kit here, it is such great quality and I can tell he really does take his time with these and puts a ton of effort into them. Really great guy.

Back to building,
since today was last day of spring break for me, I had to clean up my stuff. I placed everything in bags, everything that is similar is in the same bag. Should make this build much more organized. I plan on testing the gluing technique tomorrow or tuesday. I also glued the 2nd beam under the slanted beam. No real reason to take a picture, but I promise as I make more progress I will be taking more.

Orion14ed said:

@Luke I also checked at Home Depot today, mom went to get an air filter I tagged along. Didn't have it. Next time I am at a store I will look for those sticks... They are quite small. And Wes is really awesome with that sorta stuff, I really didn't want to say anything but my nose-cone wrap was a bit messed up, he is sending me one free of charge. Really nice guy. I didn't want to have anything negative about the kit here, it is such great quality and I can tell he really does take his time with these and puts a ton of effort into them. Really great guy.

Back to building,
since today was last day of spring break for me, I had to clean up my stuff. I placed everything in bags, everything that is similar is in the same bag. Should make this build much more organized. I plan on testing the gluing technique tomorrow or tuesday. I also glued the 2nd beam under the slanted beam. No real reason to take a picture, but I promise as I make more progress I will be taking more.

Click to expand...

Yep... sorry to hear about HD letting you down... IMHO the indoor warehouse stores are on a race to the bottom-- they're carrying less and less of what you need and more and more of what you don't. If it's anything "special" I don't even bother with them anymore-- I go straight to "Ace Hardware" or a local mom-n-pop store...

Course the big box store is probably cheaper for your mom's air conditioner filter... which reminds me-- maybe about time to change mine... thanks for reminding me!

later and good luck with your build... OL JR

Orion,
sounds like you are making good progress! My son's spring break is over tomorrow as well...but you had a great build to spend your break time with! doesn't get better than that!
regarding the small dowels....you may want to check your local dollar store....mine has all kinds of tooth picks and stuff of different sizes...and bags of the skewers Luke referred too...may be worth the shot if you can do it.
Wes is good people....his kits are really fun to build...but also fly perfectly...he really does his homework on these! maybe some day you'll try his Shuttle or the Lifting Body he sells....man are they fun to fly!

Orion14ed said:

@Luke I also checked at Home Depot today, mom went to get an air filter I tagged along. Didn't have it. Next time I am at a store I will look for those sticks... They are quite small. And Wes is really awesome with that sorta stuff, I really didn't want to say anything but my nose-cone wrap was a bit messed up, he is sending me one free of charge. Really nice guy. I didn't want to have anything negative about the kit here, it is such great quality and I can tell he really does take his time with these and puts a ton of effort into them. Really great guy.

Back to building,
since today was last day of spring break for me, I had to clean up my stuff. I placed everything in bags, everything that is similar is in the same bag. Should make this build much more organized. I plan on testing the gluing technique tomorrow or tuesday. I also glued the 2nd beam under the slanted beam. No real reason to take a picture, but I promise as I make more progress I will be taking more.

Click to expand...

Orion14ed said:

I plan on mixing up some actual futage and the model's launch to make a "live-commentary" over it explaining why it is being flown and things along that line. Should be interesting.

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Feel free to grab any footage that might be useful from my Little Joe video:

https://vimeo.com/3124296

Good luck with your project,
James

BTW- anytime someone mis-cuts or for some other reason needs another one or two of those little dowels, just e-mail me and I'll send you a replacement at no charge. I have about 20,000 of them here.

Orion14ed said:

Yup! I also am really go with video editing, so I will doing a sorta "news-cast" of sorts for my class. I plan on mixing up some actual futage and the model's launch to make a "live-commentary" over it explaining why it is being flown and things along that line. Should be interesting.

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Sounds like it will be. Cool.

Dr.Zooch said:

BTW- anytime someone mis-cuts or for some other reason needs another one or two of those little dowels, just e-mail me and I'll send you a replacement at no charge. I have about 20,000 of them here.

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Good to see you, Wes... where you been keeping yourself??

Later! OL JR

Orion14ed said:

How do you suggest doing the stripes on the end of the fins?

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Even though I'm not "@Luke"; going with what works for me, here's how I'd do it, strips of this, or whichever color is correct, assuming Microscale makes the correct color https://www.microscale.com/Merchant..._Code=TF-29&Category_Code=TF&Product_Count=32

Description:
Size-7-1/4 x 4-1/2-Bright Glow Orange (International)
Dates:
Scale:
Price: $2.50

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They also make a sheet of just the clear film base for decals which you can then print or paint desired color.

I agree with Modeltrain's suggestion. The solid decal sheets are cheap, easy to use and do a nice job. don't want to hi jack your thread, but I have attached two pics of rockets where I used the decal sheets ....simply cut to size and shape and you are good to go!

keep up the great work! and good luck with your project!!!

modeltrains said:

Even though I'm not "@Luke"; going with what works for me, here's how I'd do it, strips of this, or whichever color is correct, assuming Microscale makes the correct color https://www.microscale.com/Merchant..._Code=TF-29&Category_Code=TF&Product_Count=32


They also make a sheet of just the clear film base for decals which you can then print or paint desired color.

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@modeltrains Woops! When I do the @ thing I normally just mean for the immediate section to apply. The rest I just mean to put up for grabs. Sorry! Those do look quite nice... I sorta came up with my own solution not sure if it will work. I took some sturdy paper and spray painted it the same color I painted the fin I painted completely orange. It seems to look like from what I can find, one of the 4 fins is completely orange. Will be taking some time to look into how to get the colors on right.

@NJRick
Don't worry about it. Any information that I can get, I am happy to take in. Those are really nice looking birds. The film does not seem like a bad idea.

@James
Wow... That is quite odd. While doing research, I watched the video. Exactly same one, same website everything at school. I was impressed at how well it was done. Thank you! Will be sure to give you credit. (If you guys have not seen it, watch it, it is really quite interesting.)

@Dr.Zooch Thank you! Just got the wrap sheet in the mail today. I am going to try and find them around my area and be careful with what I have currently. You really do care about your customers. ^_^

Back to progress. Last night was the national companionship, while I am not into basketball that much, I watched it until midnight. (I mean... I am from Michigan, and even though I am a St. fan, it was worth it.) Went to school and today we went to a Tiger Game (we won!), got home around 5 and sat down and started the 2nd tower. Cut out most of the parts. I am doing it in a bit different way than suggested. I am currently cutting out a part, fitting it, glueing it on, and then fitting the next piece after ward. You can't get them perfect every time, but I can already tell you, this set is much more accurate than the last. Very happy so far with this part. Would have loved to try to get the fins done, but I am so dang tired from the past two games. (Also played a soccer game, scored... was dead tired.)

Will try to get some pictures tomorrow, IPad is off with who knows who and I don't have a camera.

sounds good Orion!! keep up the good work!!

Orion14ed said:

@modeltrains Woops! When I do the @ thing I normally just mean for the immediate section to apply. The rest I just mean to put up for grabs. Sorry! Those do look quite nice... I sorta came up with my own solution not sure if it will work. I took some sturdy paper and spray painted it the same color I painted the fin I painted completely orange. It seems to look like from what I can find, one of the 4 fins is completely orange. Will be taking some time to look into how to get the colors on right.

@NJRick
Don't worry about it. Any information that I can get, I am happy to take in. Those are really nice looking birds. The film does not seem like a bad idea.

@James
Wow... That is quite odd. While doing research, I watched the video. Exactly same one, same website everything at school. I was impressed at how well it was done. Thank you! Will be sure to give you credit. (If you guys have not seen it, watch it, it is really quite interesting.)

@Dr.Zooch Thank you! Just got the wrap sheet in the mail today. I am going to try and find them around my area and be careful with what I have currently. You really do care about your customers. ^_^

Back to progress. Last night was the national companionship, while I am not into basketball that much, I watched it until midnight. (I mean... I am from Michigan, and even though I am a St. fan, it was worth it.) Went to school and today we went to a Tiger Game (we won!), got home around 5 and sat down and started the 2nd tower. Cut out most of the parts. I am doing it in a bit different way than suggested. I am currently cutting out a part, fitting it, glueing it on, and then fitting the next piece after ward. You can't get them perfect every time, but I can already tell you, this set is much more accurate than the last. Very happy so far with this part. Would have loved to try to get the fins done, but I am so dang tired from the past two games. (Also played a soccer game, scored... was dead tired.)

Will try to get some pictures tomorrow, IPad is off with who knows who and I don't have a camera.

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NJRick said:

... I have attached two pics of rockets where I used the decal sheets

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What is that and where does it come from, that is a really neat little triangular glider.

its Dr. Zooch's Lifting Body glider....they are cool kits! lots of fun to build and fly! there is no paint scheme with them...so you can kinda do what you want...I wanted a X plane with day-glo and thought a Titan II would look neat...for the US Navy version..I always liked that old Hellcat tri color scheme and decided to make the booster a Polaris A-3.

here is my Luftwaffe version

i posted some pictures over in the scale section.

modeltrains said:

What is that and where does it come from, that is a really neat little triangular glider.

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modeltrains said:

What is that and where does it come from, that is a really neat little triangular glider.

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Dr. Zooch Lifting Body...

Here's the thread... https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?2092-Dr-Zooch-Lifting-Body-build-thread

Here's a couple pix of mine... not as inventive as Ricks, but I like them...



The kit comes with no decorations except the wraps for the boosters with the "UNITED STATES" on them... So however you decorate the kit is COMPLETELY up to you!

Later! OL JR

Progress!

After coming home from school and a terrible bus ride with a bunch of screaming 6 year olds... (Still have a headache...)Started the capsule. I painted the capsule the day I got it. I used some high quality painter's tape... but yet some black still got under the tape. Not sure how, but I sanded it down to get a good fit in the BT. I then cut out my new wrap, glued it in the proper position along with the recovery-compartments. This was all very straightforward, cut it out, and glue the edges. Used a little white glue, both turned out just fine. The upper section of the nose wrap was difficult to cut. It was a bit choppy, I am sure no one would notice it but me... but all people have that problem. Luckily, the same coloring of the compartment above it saved the day, looks great. Great quality wraps!


I then took the strange black dot. Strange indeed. Applied some wood glue to attach it to the top of the capsule. The conical orange wrap was not too difficult to do. Glued that in place to work on the black cone. This was hard because I have relatively large hands. So I used a tooth pick along with my palm to get it to the right shape. Turned out a bit slanted, not too much of a big deal. should not hurt the tower at all.


To finish off today's work I attached more to the 2nd strut. This one is much more accurate. Issue is, I sorta have to guess as I go to get the exact right fit. (Oxymoron >.<) This should connect much cleaner to the other struts than the last segment. Both look okay so far...



Tomorrow I will try to play with the glue tomorrow while I work on the struts. In school we were asked about our projects. I said I had a top secret addition to our project... Did did not want to give the 60's people the idea... not like they would do it... (Yes, I could have taken the 60's, but I gave up the moon landing for an awesome group, I always ended up doing all the work in my groups, finally got a good group.)

See you till' then!