Why is the [Restricted]Research thread only allowed to US members?

Barkley said:

Of course there are other resources, but you're sidestepping the idiocy of the situation. I can legally make APCP in my garage, but I can't read your forum. It doesn't make sense. Just today there was a reference to a boosted dart thread (with aims of 100k feet) that I'd love to look at, but... no dice because it's in Research.

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I am not sidestepping the idiocy of the situation. I am not arguing for it. BTW, it is not "my" forum. I am not eligible to read it either. However, I accept it. I also realize that the forum owner probably has no motivation whatsoever to change the access. The volunteer moderators are equally unmotivated to make a change because the potential risks far outweigh the needs of a few people.

Your case is a bit different though. If indeed you are legally allowed to posess components as you say, then there should be a way that you could demonstrate that. For example, to work with explosives, you may only need to be a U.S. person or have the required exemption as an "alien". There is a difference and I would think you might know more than I do since you live in Texas. I aluded to this in an earlier post. If I were living in the U.S. and had the appropriate privileges to allow me to posess and use AP and possibly other things like AN etc., I would make my case here on TRF.

Barkley said:

As a Canadian living in Texas, with a valid Texas driver's licence and valid US entrant's visa, currently possessing a valid Tripoli L2, I can legally acquire the components and make APCP in my garage. But I'm not allowed into the TRF research section to learn how to do it safely. There is no logic to this.

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With the "valid US entrant's visa", do you have a green card? I am getting real fuzzy here and outside of my expertise, but I know we had people from the UK working in our facility and due to their status they were considered as US citizens from ITAR/EAR point of view even though they were not a US citizen (never went through the process to become an "official" citizen)

les said:

With the "valid US entrant's visa", do you have a green card? I am getting real fuzzy here and outside of my expertise, but I know we had people from the UK working in our facility and due to their status they were considered as US citizens from ITAR/EAR point of view even though they were not a US citizen (never went through the process to become an "official" citizen)

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Yep Green Card counts as a US person for ITAR. So Barkley you can get access to the research forum.

https://www.research.pitt.edu/exco-us-person-vs-foreign-person

Xrain said:

Yep Green Card counts as a US person for ITAR. So Barkley you can get access to the research forum.

https://www.research.pitt.edu/exco-us-person-vs-foreign-person

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I have an L2 work visa but no Green Card. The mods here said because there's no green card I'm No Bueno.

tmacklin said:

Has any U.S. Citizen ever been charged, indicted, tried or convicted for violation of ITAR in connection with hobby rocketry? Is viewing "how to" videos such as those produced by Richard Nakka or James Yawn illegal in Canada? What about books openly sold by such authors as David Sleeter, Dr. Terry McCreary or John Wickman? Should these be on the prohibited list?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Traffic_in_Arms_Regulations#Exemptions_and_treaties

Let the book burning commence!

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Senior Macklin, from your link:

Canada is the recipient of an ITAR exemption related to the 1963 Defense Development Sharing Arrangement with the U.S. Government.^{[90][91][92][93]}

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I wonder what exactly that means.

Canadians are the one nationality that are treated differently than other foreigners under ITAR, but I don't know what they can do or how to get the exemption. They are not automatically granted exemptions from ITAR from what I was told.

And in addition to being a U.S. citizen, you must be IN THE U.S. when accessing the information. Carry a military drawing out of the U.S., even to say, Montreal, and you have exported that information. Even if it never leaves your briefcase. Show that same drawing to a foreigner in your Dallas, Texas office and you just exported it too. The lawyers where I worked warned us not to do this stuff without the proper paperwork. If you did it, the company would NOT stand behind you. You were on your own.

Zeus-cat said:

Canadians are the one nationality that are treated differently than other foreigners under ITAR, but I don't know what they can do or how to get the exemption. They are not automatically granted exemptions from ITAR from what I was told.

And in addition to being a U.S. citizen, you must be IN THE U.S. when accessing the information. Carry a military drawing out of the U.S., even to say, Montreal, and you have exported that information. Even if it never leaves your briefcase. Show that same drawing to a foreigner in your Dallas, Texas office and you just exported it too. The lawyers where I worked warned us not to do this stuff without the proper paperwork. If you did it, the company would NOT stand behind you. You were on your own.

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This is the best, most concise description of the ITAR regs as I understand them. I understand very little actually. Just enough to be cautious.
Thank you.

So if I were to send this information via email to my friend Michael Pitfield in Toronto, would I be in violation of ITAR?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonium_perchlorate_composite_propellant

Or maybe this? https://www.space-rockets.com/newbook.html

tmacklin said:

So if I were to send this information via email to my friend Michael Pitfield in Toronto, would I be in violation of ITAR?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonium_perchlorate_composite_propellant

Or maybe this? https://www.space-rockets.com/newbook.html

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OHHH No He DI-UNT...

Internet Kill Switch active in...

5, 4, 3, 2, well you get the idea...

Check yer 6 fo da black helos Mac...

tmacklin said:

So if I were to send this information via email to my friend Michael Pitfield in Toronto, would I be in violation of ITAR?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonium_perchlorate_composite_propellant

Or maybe this? https://www.space-rockets.com/newbook.html

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It seems nuts (because it is nuts), but I've heard of an instance where someone was trying to take a book into Canada, of which was publicly available online. But physically taking the book was a violation of ITAR.

That said, hobby rockets as defined by NFPA regs and if passively guided. Though there are quite a few rockets around that aren't compliant with NFPA regs.

Folks just don't seem to get it. There are folks who get paid truckloads of money to make sense out of export regulations. It's not going to make sense, and to some degree it was written to not make sense. The original rules were written so that you had to prove by documentation you were not in violation rather than that you were in compliance. The ITAR and export regs are written so they are flexible enough to catch you doing something that might be a risk to national security that the authors had not thought of yet. You can bemoan how it does not make sense, and you are right. It does not change the fact that they can come down on you like a load of bricks if they perceive you are wrong. Then you have to prove you are right.

We get it all right...

We just don't like the fact...

That there are 2 sets...

Of rules in this country...

Rules for the Dept of "JUST US"... (where the rules are malleable)

And rules for the little people... (where they are NOT)

Trust me that in this case the rules are far more strictly applied to those you would think are "just us." Major corporations have teams of people who are dedicated to making sure they don't run afoul of this morass. It can cost hundreds of thousands of dollars per incident and each page of a document that has proscribed information can be counted as a separate offense.

To be honest, you could probably share data related to our hobby all day long and, unless you were dealing with one of the few embargoed countries (https://www.export.pitt.edu/embargoed-and-sanctioned-countries), nobody would notice. While technically a violation (just like probably half of what you do while driving is), those responsible for enforcement just don't have the bandwidth to bother with you.

As I said earlier, I doubt if anything in the sooper-secret-skunkworks forum even rises to the level of an ITAR matter, someone here was scared and chose to take a paranoid approach.

That said, who here is game to read the several hundred pages of twaddle to make sure?

You are incorrect on your interpretation of the Canadian ITAR exception.

Bob

H_Rocket said:

Trust me that in this case the rules are far more strictly applied to those you would think are "just us."

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Sadly, Brian Terry's family would beg to differ...

ITAR applies to automatic weapons, no...

I only worked in technology, so I never had the occasion to read the part on automatic weapons. And, frankly, I can find better ways to fall asleep.

(edit) Just read a news post about Brian Terry (I had forgotten the story). The reach you are making to compare what we have been discussing and the export controls on firearms is kind of a stretch. That was a case of a poorly thought out governmental operation going wrong every way possible. Criminally wrong in my personal opinion. However you are now looking for things to tie together.

What's to tie together...

If it looks like a duck...

And quacks like a duck...

Well, you know...

So maybe the JBGTs are out to get you. I'll drop it here as I was trying to point out the facts of what I knew with respect to export regulations. I have no interest in starting or continuing a discussion that is steamrolling towards the ole Loctite picture.

KidRockET said:

What's to tie together...

If it looks like a duck...

And quacks like a duck...

Well, you know...

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It must be a sheep....

H_Rocket said:

So maybe the JBGTs are out to get you. I'll drop it here as I was trying to point out the facts of what I knew with respect to export regulations. I have no interest in starting or continuing a discussion that is steamrolling towards the ole Loctite picture.

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Fair enough...

At the end of the day, there are people who own this site, and there are the mods that facilitate the day to day. "They" collectively own this sandbox (in their back yard), and they let us in here to play. Granted, with ad revenue they profit from us being here, but at the end of the day I'm not really one to tell them how to run their business. Assessment of risk is a business decision, and folks like me can either choose to play by the house rules or take my ball and go home.

Having said that, the lack of logic is almost comical. Uncle Sam knows far more about me than I suspect he knows of most Americans - I've provided a full employment and personal background on myself (including references, which were checked), my fingerprints, and a scan of both my retinas. To have rules that now say I can make APCP but I can't read an internet forum...

I wonder if those of you who have been into the bowels of the "sooper-secret-skunkworks" have ever drifted away from a rocket related discussion, say a propellant formula, into the verboten zones of politics and/or religion? If so it would be like being trapped on an elevator, no? :wink:

We will never tell as you have to know the secret handshake.

Xrain said:

It seems nuts (because it is nuts), but I've heard of an instance where someone was trying to take a book into Canada, of which was publicly available online. But physically taking the book was a violation of ITAR.

That said, hobby rockets as defined by NFPA regs and if passively guided are exempt from ITAR. Though there are quite a few rockets around that aren't compliant with NFPA regs.

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Apparently I only wrote the rest of that sentence in my mind.

H_Rocket said:

We will never tell as you have to know the secret handshake.

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You also gotta love the cool T-Shirt and coffee Mug. For anyone interested we have initiations into the forum on every 3rd Saturday, except for Saturdays half past a waxing moon.

H_Rocket said:

We will never tell as you have to know the secret handshake.

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MMMMMMagenta....

Xrain said:

Apparently I only wrote the rest of that sentence in my mind.



You also gotta love the cool T-Shirt and coffee Mug. For anyone interested we have initiations into the forum on every 3rd Saturday, except for Saturdays half past a waxing moon.

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You picked an unfortunate theme song though:

[video=youtube;1IBbcx3Gnzk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IBbcx3Gnzk[/video]

H_Rocket said:

A choice made by the forum owners. It is probably common sense and to be honest, the folks who enforce the Export Laws and AECA (ITAR) probably don't give a rats backside on the material we use as it is already splattered all over the web. Personally, I find TRF's rules (as ITAR applies) on the matter inane, however trying to change the moderator's opinions here is a pointless gesture. It would take a scorchingly long reach for someone really doing something where ITAR comes into play to have what is on a hobby forum matter. If a user here came under that scrutiny, they were probably playing fast and loose with things that are watched far more seriously.

BTW, I did export compliance (CCL) for two years as a large part of my job.

OTOH, I am not sure of my position on the age/certification access requirements.

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This... The restriction on who can be on the research sub-forum, has nothing to do with the legalities of ITAR, end of story... The restriction is nothing more than a restriction policy/requirement in place by the owner of Rocketry Forum for what ever reason they have chosen, weather a perceived legal issue or any other reason perceived legal or not...Their sand box rules...

This is the USA and you are free to believe whatever you want to, however the only thing folks got right is the Rocketry Forum is a privately owned membership forum where the membership has agree to abide by the posted forum rules in order to post. While the membership may constitutionally have a right to free speech, the right for free press, and the right of pursuit of happiness, our favorite uncle still determines what the limits are, and we have no standing in the decision......and the forum owner, administrators and moderators are ultimately held responsible for the forum content.

If you have ever taken a business ITAR course, you would know that one of our members was one of the first brought up on ITAR charges in the late 90s when the current ITAR legislation became law. This individual did nothing wrong, he was a long term trusted DoD contractor and got caught up in a bathroom contest with the State Department because of a DoD contractual requirement for document transfer. Who knows what it cost to ultimately clear it up........

Another member was persecuted by ATF for more than a year in the early 2000s when everything rocketry needed an ATF explosives license which he had, but ATF claimed he had the wrong license and purposely misrepresented himself. They actually had not updated their website, publications and forms to indicate the number of license classes had been reduce either.......Again who knows what it cost to straighten it out.....

And while not directly having a connection to ITAR, you memory must be failing concerning the proclivity of our favorite Uncle to pass rules and regulation that are technically incorrect and result in the restriction of your pursuit of happiness. I seem to remember if my memory is not failing, that the ATF passed a regulation requiring all high power rocketry folks to have explosives licenses..... To comply with this regulation, it would have cost every high power individual well over $1000 in license fees and unnecessary storage facilities over 10 years. It was so much of a hobby killer that both NAR and TRA files a lawsuit in 1999 to overturn the regulation which was accomplished in 2009 after a decade of litigation costing in excess of $800,000...... which amounts to 20% of the combined NAR/TRA dues collected over that time period if my calculations are correct........

And even though we won that battle, we still have to fight. While rocket motors were declared by the court not to be explosives, the decision was narrow, and the igniters for these non-explosives were and are still regulated items.......and ATF required all igniter manufacturers to reformulate their hobby rocket "starters"........

The above examples show how our favorite uncle has made it difficult for individuals, corporations, and national organization to pursue hobby rocketry, and is an area of concern for the owner and management of TRF, so we choose to be conservative in our interpretations of US regulations.

So in conclusion, TRF is a privately owned web-based membership forum where the members have agreed to abide by the rules setup by the forum management and owners. Basic membership costs nothing and members are free to join and free to leave, or may be involuntarily removed from the forum for egregiously violation the forum rules.......however the membership should be aware that the forum owner spends a considerable amount of his income each year to maintain this forum, and the forum management donates their time and efforts for the betterment of the hobby and the membership. We are not willing to risk our freedom, employment and income should our favorite uncle decide that we might be doing something wrong.....

That's all folks.

Thread Closed.

Bob