TLP Hellfire AGM114A

[KenECoyote]

Ken, I have thought of a way to do the clear lens, but it might be a little beyond my skills at the moment. I would need to make a mold and then use casting resin to make the dome, then cut the nose cone and fit the resin dome to it. A lot of work but I'm sure it would look really cool, maybe a future project.

I think that's what the other build I saw did! I thought it looked awesome, but felt it was a lot more work and time than I would want to spend or try to copy. I may try to see if I can find a clear round sphere the same diameter and maybe cut it and glue it on after hacking off part of the nose cone. That may be easier...except for the finding part! (Last year I wanted a clear plastic/rubber half-sphere for a custom saucer rocket and spent a LOT of time looking...even tried molding my own out of clear rubber and all were somewhat disappointing.)

Maybe a mirrored or chrome vinyl? That and some heat to set it down flat, I think would work well.

That's a good idea...I may have black chrome spray paint. I'll have to consider these when I build my Hellfire. Still debating making it a simple stock build or modding. I'd love to make it look more realistic, but part of me just wants to fly. :wink:

 

[KenECoyote]

I would actually go with a nylon chute right off the bat. Either toss that mylar chute in the trash or into a parts bin. If you're concerned about weight, Top Flight makes a line of orange colored thin-mill chutes that are very lightweight.

I built the TLP Folgore and my mylar chute ripped on the very first flight. These rockets are heavy. Add to that a rather high speed deployment and you can be nearly certain the mylar will rip. Replaced it with a nylon chute and haven't had any problems since.

Great job BTW. I think my next TLP kit will be the Hellfire as well.

I'll have to say that initially I was very leary about the mylar chutes since I had no experience with them prior; however each time I've used it, it has worked (about a half-dozen times...I should be able to relay more experience later this year since I plan on building and launching more TLPs). I do recall that you have to be very careful of cutting it since even a small snag will be a point for easy tearing (nature of mylar). That said, the mylar chute in my Maverick is showing it's age after 3 flights (including one in a river with retrieval including a chute full of water). I've been using small pieces of scotch tape in two places to stop further tears, but I may replace after the next flight or so. They are a great idea to keep the build light, kits cheap and I love the colors, but yes...very fragile compared to the chutes we normally use. From what I recall there is a completely different bunch of things to learn about them (including pre-crumpling them enough so that they soften and will open even by dropping out of your hand...I tried that on a different build but gave up after a lot of crumpling).

Perhaps someone with a lot of mylar chute experience will chime in...I think they're often used in duration contest rockets.

With all that said, I think a nylon chute would be a good upgrade. Come to think of it, why not try plastic?

 

[NZM305]

So just doing my CG vs CP checks, https://www.rocketreviews.com/the-launch-pad-hellfire-agm-114a.html says 11.5 in from the nose for the CP. So using the 1-1.5 caliber margin CG should be 7.6 - 8.9in from the nose??

 

[KenECoyote]

So just doing my CG vs CP checks, https://www.rocketreviews.com/the-launch-pad-hellfire-agm-114a.html says 11.5 in from the nose for the CP. So using the 1-1.5 caliber margin CG should be 7.6 - 8.9in from the nose??

That sounds correct as long as the listed CP is correct.

BTW - I may have come up with a possible clear front lens...I may try this on my Hellfire or a smaller piece on the TLP Dragonfly or Sidewinder kits. Clear ornament cases (available at Amazon and likely craft stores on discount if you can find them)..here is a 60mm one:

This customization would be tricky though since 1) you'll have to cut the nose shorter, which brings the CG aft; 2) you'll have to figure out how to glue the clear acrylic to the nose; 3) acrylic is fragile and will crack if dropped on a hard surface. I may try a few tests once I get my hands on these.

 

[NZM305]

Those look like they could work, a bit of trial and error and sorting out how to add weight behind the clear nose.
Looks like with the papering and filler she's turned into a bit of a fat bottomed girl, current cg is 3/4 in behind the given cp. Time to add some more nose weight.....:blush:

 

[burkefj]

It's tough to avoid nose weight with a hellfire. On my fullscale 7" diameter version that I made using an ultra light foam built up structure, it still required 13 ounces of nose weight in a model that weighed 5.5 pounds ready to fly. So about 20% nose weight.

 

[KenECoyote]

Those look like they could work, a bit of trial and error and sorting out how to add weight behind the clear nose.
Looks like with the papering and filler she's turned into a bit of a fat bottomed girl, current cg is 3/4 in behind the given cp. Time to add some more nose weight.....:blush:

I figured I'd just paint the inside black/near black and then fill with epoxy for nose weight - speaking of which... 3/4" behind the CP sounds way off...did you already put in the provided clay nose weight? Also I'm assuming you balanced with the motor in place (check balance as the rocket would be ready to put on the pad...include chute and wadding/dog barf...the forward weight helps counter the motor a bit). The kit should've come with some clay to mount inside the nose. I read that TLP told someone that if the clay is dried, put a few drops of water into the bag, reseal and wait overnight...alternatively, you can weigh and replace with same weight fresh clay/substitute.

Short rockets with fin surface up forward* will usually require more nose weight. Nature of the beasts.

*Edit: (and in the back)

 

[KenECoyote]

It's tough to avoid nose weight with a hellfire. On my fullscale 7" diameter version that I made using an ultra light foam built up structure, it still required 13 ounces of nose weight in a model that weighed 5.5 pounds ready to fly. So about 20% nose weight.

I remember that one! Very cool. You make the coolest stuff Frank! #Frankfan

 

[rharshberger]

It's tough to avoid nose weight with a hellfire. On my fullscale 7" diameter version that I made using an ultra light foam built up structure, it still required 13 ounces of nose weight in a model that weighed 5.5 pounds ready to fly. So about 20% nose weight.

My first experience RSO'ing this particular Hellfire rocket I almost felt like I was going to drop it it was so nose heavy compared to Franks other builds, I'm always a little nervous with the foamie's, while they are quite strong they just feel fragile and way lighter than anything that size should. Looks like a K, but its an H....

 

[NZM305]

I figured I'd just paint the inside black/near black and then fill with epoxy for nose weight - speaking of which... 3/4" behind the CP sounds way off...did you already put in the provided clay nose weight? Also I'm assuming you balanced with the motor in place (check balance as the rocket would be ready to put on the pad...include chute and wadding/dog barf...the forward weight helps counter the motor a bit). The kit should've come with some clay to mount inside the nose. I read that TLP told someone that if the clay is dried, put a few drops of water into the bag, reseal and wait overnight...alternatively, you can weigh and replace with same weight fresh clay/substitute.

Short rockets with fin surface up forward will usually require more nose weight. Nature of the beasts.

Yeah that CG is with the clay glued in the nose, a substitute weight in for the motor and all the laundry packed in the front. I had read a review where the builder had to add 4 oz to get the nose weight right. I'm guessing the filler I used on the tail cone to get the shape right definitely added some and then all the little additions have added up, and because the big fins are at the rear it brings the CG that far back. I'll go buy some lead shot tomorrow and then add it a bit at a time till i get it in the range

 

[burkefj]

Yup, I figured where the cg needs to be, an ounce extra in the tail means about 2 ounces in the nose.

Frank

 

[NZM305]

I think I'll add an ounce and let it set and recheck it to see how much it moves and just work my way up slowly, will be interesting to see what the final weight comes to.

 

[TopRamen]

I think I'll add an ounce and let it set and recheck it to see how much it moves and just work my way up slowly, will be interesting to see what the final weight comes to.

I did enough mods to my TLP Martel Kit that it flies on E20-4 at the minimum, but it flies straight as an Arrow.

You mentioned trying the glue rivet method. I found that to be trickier than simply buying those cheesy "Bedazzle Stickers" from the dollar store, and removing the sticky on them then gluing them in place.
If you do the glue drop method, practice on some stuff first to get your technique down. I ended up destroying my TLP ALARM rocket because it really looked like crap to me. It also did'nt have enough room in the chute' compartment for ample recovery gear. I saved the section with the fins though to possibly use as a fin can at a later date.

 

[KenECoyote]

I think the E20-4 is a great motor for any TLP kit designed to fly on D12-3, and even better if the model finishes a bit on the heavy side. Also quite cost-effective...to the point that using a similar size reload is not worth the extra work. YMMV.

 

[K'Tesh]

I did enough mods to my TLP Martel Kit that it flies on E20-4 at the minimum, but it flies straight as an Arrow.

You mentioned trying the glue rivet method. I found that to be trickier than simply buying those cheesy "Bedazzle Stickers" from the dollar store, and removing the sticky on them then gluing them in place.
If you do the glue drop method, practice on some stuff first to get your technique down. I ended up destroying my TLP ALARM rocket because it really looked like crap to me. It also did'nt have enough room in the chute' compartment for ample recovery gear. I saved the section with the fins though to possibly use as a fin can at a later date.

Good to see you back TR!

 

[NZM305]

Added a couple of oz of lead tonight, so glue needs to dry and then recheck cg.

 

[TopRamen]

Good to see you back TR!

It's a TLP Thread. I can't resist the allure.

I miss building incredibly!!!

 

[K'Tesh]

It's a TLP Thread. I can't resist the allure.

I miss building incredibly!!!

I feel you there man... I have yet to see a can of spray paint, white glue, or a hobby shop in a city of nearly 7 million.

I have to have friends and family send rockets er... unassembled models to me, and so far, none of them have.

 

[KenECoyote]

I feel you there man... I have yet to see a can of spray paint, white glue, or a hobby shop in a city of nearly 7 million.

I have to have friends and family send rockets er... unassembled models to me, and so far, none of them have.

I would think kits would get smashed being shipped to you in China...plus TLP kits aren't known to be very tough in their packaging to begin with (I treat them like eggs). Also if you pack it carefully enough, the shipping may be very costly.

How about a TLP plan pack? I found one I have where it instructs you on how to roll you own mmt and body tubes (AMRAAM AIM-120A) which I haven't used and you can have it. Should be able to ship fine. PM or call me with your address.

As a back-to-topic note I finally located my TLP Hellfire! I had it lying around waiting to construct for months and just as this thread started suddenly I couldn't find it. Turns out it was put into a box with some other kits and stowed in the basement to make room for the Christmas tree.

 

[bclark989]

This is a great thread! I have the TLP Sparrow on my workbench now and plan on putting a photo album as a build thread eventually. Building takes me forever though thanks to prolonged breaks so I don't like to make a thread until I know I'm close to being done=P

On the subject of nose weight, I think you could get away with less than 1.0cal in OpenRocket/Rocksim. This apogee newsletter covers the subject of stability in short fat rockets, which they describe as rockets with less than the traditional 10:1 length to diameter ratio. The hellfire is roughly 9:1, so while its not an Estes Big Daddy, its not aerodynamically "traditional". I don't have experience flying a hellfire, but I would be curious if other people agree, and also curious what the intended design comes out to for CP and CG.

Lastly, sorry for the derail...Jim, where are you again? I will be in China again at some point this year and could try and bring you something in my carry-on. Probably nothing you can get an L2 on, but something rocket shaped, anyway. I will likely be in Guangzhou and/or Shanghai.

Cheers,

BC

 

[NZM305]

That was an interesting read BC, I also wonder how much difference a boat tail end makes from a flat base? So far with 2oz added its move the CG to about 1 1/2'' in front of the CP but I'm having trouble getting the white glue to go off and hold the lead shot in. Might have to consider changing glues for this part.

 

[rharshberger]

That was an interesting read BC, I also wonder how much difference a boat tail end makes from a flat base? So far with 2oz added its move the CG to about 1 1/2'' in front of the CP but I'm having trouble getting the white glue to go off and hold the lead shot in. Might have to consider changing glues for this part.

White glue really does not work well for lead shot, best adhesives are epoxies (mix epoxy in cup pour shot into cup and stir to coat then pour it all into the nose cone tip) or Gorilla Glue (polyurethane foaming type).

 

[NZM305]

Think I might go for the gorilla glue Rich, lol I've been spending so much money on glues etc that I'd better order some more rockets to build soon

 

[TopRamen]

I use John Cokers methods when it comes to adding nose weight most of the time.

Either bamboo skewers through the plastic nose cone itself with epoxy and shot, or even coat hanger metal through it.
That nose weight is not going anywhere.

 

[KenECoyote]

Either bamboo skewers through the plastic nose cone itself with epoxy and shot, or even coat hanger metal through it.
That nose weight is not going anywhere.

+1

 

[sodmeister]

It's a TLP Thread. I can't resist the allure.

I miss building incredibly!!!

Well my friend ,that makes two of us !!


Cheers

Paul T

 

[TopRamen]

Well my friend ,that makes two of us !!


Cheers

Paul T

Hello Friend!!!

Cheers Indeed!!!

 

[Cl(VII)]

Holy Crap! Top and Paul. This is indeed a powerful thread. There is much good TLP juju here.

 

[rharshberger]

Holy Crap! Top and Paul. This is indeed a powerful thread. There is much good TLP juju here.

Yep all the hermits come out to play on a TLP thread....nice to see you two again.

 

[KenECoyote]

Holy Crap! Top and Paul. This is indeed a powerful thread. There is much good TLP juju here.

+1 I thought I was the reason they both left...thanks for dispelling that! :wink:

I'm currently working on the TLP Saab RB 05A and may post a build thread soon, so TLP fever is catching!