TLP Hellfire AGM114A

[NZM305]

Lol :blush: I went back and had a look and yup just needed to rearrange and look again. Tonimus's link helped get the right orientation in my mind.

Fins Cut

• NZM305
• Nov 7, 2019

So all cut out and paper tomorrow I think.

And yes Happy New Year to all

 

[K'Tesh]

Lol :blush: I went back and had a look and yup just needed to rearrange and look again. Tonimus's link helped get the right orientation in my mind.



So all cut out and paper tomorrow I think.

And yes Happy New Year to all

Those look a lot better... Here's a link on my method of papering fins. I hope this helps.

 

[NZM305]

Thanks K'Tesh, I'd had a read of your papering method and liked it. I'll use white glue rather than a glue stick, but it should work fine.

Any suggestions for how to hold the fins together whilst sanding to shape?

 

[Tonimus]

Much better, Phil. Those will hold up a lot better than the way you had them before. Keep up the fine work.

 

[K'Tesh]

Thanks K'Tesh, I'd had a read of your papering method and liked it. I'll use white glue rather than a glue stick, but it should work fine.

Any suggestions for how to hold the fins together whilst sanding to shape?

I like the glue sticks as it keeps fingers (and thus the final product) cleaner, and there's nearly no drying time.

Ok, if you're going to use glue, keep a warm damp rag nearby to keep those fingers clean, and remember that a thin application is best. Apply it too thick and you risk warping the fins, or odd dimples/waves in the finished product. Apply the paper to both sides as quickly as you can to reduce the chance of warping the fins. A lot of people also suggest drying the fins on a cooling rack to allow for even drying. If you keep your fins squashed between books, your drying time increases.

When it comes to sanding to shape, I never clamp balsa without using something stronger (read: plywood scraps) on the outside to prevent crushing damage to the fins. This goes for rubber bands too.

Usually (with balsa), I just hold them with my fingers, and check the alignment frequently.

 

[Rex R]

a 1" foam paint brush works wonders for spreading glue/keeping the pinkies clean and dry .
Rex

 

[NZM305]

Well a couple of lessons learnt......
1) Left too much overlap on the paper, which meant when I squeegeed the paper on I couldn't wipe the excess glue easily.
2) Don't leave damp things to dry between a steel bench and a 10mm thick piece of steel............. = rust spots on the fins

Oh well they will still be usable and it has definitely stiffened the fins. Still have to add the extra stiffening that TLP provide. Going to cut that slightly differently to the plans to try and make it look like it has separate steering fins.

And the 1in foam brush worked wonders for getting a nice even spread of the glue Rex

 

[Cl(VII)]

Well a couple of lessons learnt......
1) Left too much overlap on the paper, which meant when I squeegeed the paper on I couldn't wipe the excess glue easily.
2) Don't leave damp things to dry between a steel bench and a 10mm thick piece of steel............. = rust spots on the fins

Oh well they will still be usable and it has definitely stiffened the fins. Still have to add the extra stiffening that TLP provide. Going to cut that slightly differently to the plans to try and make it look like it has separate steering fins.

And the 1in foam brush worked wonders for getting a nice even spread of the glue Rex

There will always be lessons to learn with any build, if not it would get pretty boring. Glad you papered the fins, you will not regret it.

Also, parchment paper (the baking stuff) sticks to almost nothing, and doesn't leave residue like wax paper can. Test first, but I haven't stuck an adhesive to it yet. Works great for laminating fins under weight, at least with epoxy.

 

[NZM305]

So more progress over the last cpl of days.
Spirals, nosecone and tail cone filled.

Spirals Filled

• NZM305
• Nov 7, 2019

Tailcone Filled

• NZM305
• Nov 7, 2019

And extra bracing for tail fins added. As you can see I've put a gap in the bracing to try and make the steering fin look separate. As I'm going to paint the rocket flat black I might paint in a light coloured break line to highlight the rear steering fin (hopefully lol)

Fin Gap

• NZM305
• Nov 7, 2019

Fin Gap Close Up

• NZM305
• Nov 7, 2019

Now to find the aluminum angle I'm sure I had around here some where.

 

[KenECoyote]

Looking great!

 

[burkefj]

A silver sharpie on the black paint will add nice detail lines, and might work for your separation for the steering fin instead of having to paint.

 

[NZM305]

And now rear fins are in place . It's finally starting to look like a missile

Fins In Place 1

• NZM305
• Nov 7, 2019

Fins In Place 2

• NZM305
• Nov 7, 2019

 

[Zeus-cat]

Another thing to keep in mind is that the mylar parachute included with the kit looks cool, but mylar is tricky to work with. Most guys in my club only use them for competition as they tend to rip easily. They use them a few times and then toss them. Ripping is more likely for parachute ejections that take place with the rocket moving at any significant speed. A not uncommon experience with 2.6 inch diameter kits launched on a D12 motor. This is because these rockets are heavier and are less likely than other rockets to be going straight up at apogee. They arc over and don't have the advantage of gravity slowing them down as much near apogee.

A nylon chute would be better, but that adds weight, which is the other problem you are fighting. If you do use nylon, try to keep the chute as close to the top of the body tube as possible to keep the CG forward.

 

[Cl(VII)]

Looking real good. I like the way you are trying to create the illusion of two fins. I think you will achieve a good look with virtually no loss in strength.

Also, you were clearly up to the challenge of this kit. We'll done jumping in with both feet.

 

[NZM305]

Thanks for the kind words Cl, and Zeus-cat I have though about upgrading to a nylon chute, I think I will try it on the Mylar and see how it comes through. I still have to order motors etc so when I do that I'll get a nylon chute as well ready to go if the Mylar doesn't hold up.

So here is how it looks today

Airframe Complete

• NZM305
• Nov 7, 2019

So still to do is 1) Nose weight, managed to reconstitute the clay, just letting it dry out a little before fitting to the nose cone.
2) Fillet fins to add strength.
3) Attach chute shock cord to body.
4) Rig Chute
5) Add some little detail stuff
6) Paint

 

[NZM305]

So filleted fins, put the shock cord in the body and rigged the chute. Got some nose weight in but need the rest of the clay to dry a little more before I can finish that.
Any suggestions for the best rail lugs?
Was thinking these. https://www.rocketarium.com/Build/Rail/Linear-Lugs/1010?zenid=iv2115ccs4f2l8246nkgjb9e40
I need to order them before I start to paint.

 

[Cl(VII)]

For a rocket this light I would go with a rod for launch. If you want to go rail you will probably need to get some glue on guides as opposed to screw on. With thin cardboard you would need to have some wood backing block inside the tube already to screw into. I would imagine you could get around this, but the "Acme conformal rail guides" from giantleaprocketry.com are made to be epoxied on. They look very military also. Best to attach would probably be tape off the tube where you will put them, finish painting, remove tape and epoxy in place.

Many ways to go about this though.

 

[NZM305]

Had thought about incorporating both styles so I can launch from either rod or rail.
So I'm assuming that the standard lug should be glued on around the same height as front of the bottom fins? or does it need to be at the CP?

 

[rharshberger]

For a rocket this light I would go with a rod for launch. If you want to go rail you will probably need to get some glue on guides as opposed to screw on. With thin cardboard you would need to have some wood backing block inside the tube already to screw into. I would imagine you could get around this, but the "Acme conformal rail guides" from giantleaprocketry.com are made to be epoxied on. They look very military also. Best to attach would probably be tape off the tube where you will put them, finish painting, remove tape and epoxy in place.

Many ways to go about this though.

For a rocket that light you could use the micro-rail by Makerbeam and micro-rail buttons from www.railbuttons.com

 

[burkefj]

I'd have used brad hole t nuts, they have a very thin flange and as long as the screw is the right length it won't stick through and catch on anything, you can still do that in the front if you have something to hold it down into the tube while you start the screw in it, the one on the rear would have had to have been thought about before putting the rear centering rings in place, but I think you could still use a screw into the tube, and use CA to harden the threads in the tube, there won't be much stress on it.

You could also use the brad hole t nuts and put one just ahead of the forward centering ring and another up near the top fins, again the flange is very thin so is unlikely to catch anything, you can always put a little epoxy over it once in place to make it smooth...

The 6/32 fits into the hole in the rail guide and you use a flat head screw to attach it, the wide flange supports the inside of the cardboard tube pretty well.

https://fastenerline.com/1060-brad-hole-tee-nuts

https://www.rocketarium.com/Build/Rail/Delrin-Rail-Gudes/1010-Airframe

 

[KenECoyote]

So filleted fins, put the shock cord in the body and rigged the chute. Got some nose weight in but need the rest of the clay to dry a little more before I can finish that.
Any suggestions for the best rail lugs?
Was thinking these. https://www.rocketarium.com/Build/Rail/Linear-Lugs/1010?zenid=iv2115ccs4f2l8246nkgjb9e40
I need to order them before I start to paint.

PML rail lugs are way too big for this rocket IMO. I use them for my large & heavy HP rockets. On my Maverick I added mini rail buttons (used epoxy to install and it seems strong enough for this light rocket)...along with the lugs which I had from the initial build. The minis look right to me, but from what I've read the micro rbs may be better and suggestions from the others here are also good.

Would look cool with the linear lugs though...maybe make similar out of balsa and put micro/mini rbs in the middle?

Pic showing mount points...front has a fairing though:

 

[Cl(VII)]

Had thought about incorporating both styles so I can launch from either rod or rail.
So I'm assuming that the standard lug should be glued on around the same height as front of the bottom fins? or does it need to be at the CP?

For anything over about 25 cm long or over about 100g I like to use two short (~2-3 cm long) lugs spaced about the same way I would buttons. That is one near the aft end and one at or slightly fore of the loaded CG.

 

[NZM305]

PML rail lugs are way too big for this rocket IMO. I use them for my large & heavy HP rockets. On my Maverick I added mini rail buttons (used epoxy to install and it seems strong enough for this light rocket)...along with the lugs which I had from the initial build. The minis look right to me, but from what I've read the micro rbs may be better and suggestions from the others here are also good.

Would look cool with the linear lugs though...maybe make similar out of balsa and put micro/mini rbs in the middle?

Pic showing mount points...front has a fairing though:

That's been one of my reference pics during this build

I think I'll order the Acme Conformal guides cause they do look like they'll keep with the missile theme (And I've got a crazy idea for a rail pad build)
In the mean time I'll fit the standard lugs and then move on to detailing and paint (I'll mask off where I want to place the rail guides)

Anyone know what a D12-3 motor weighs so I can work out my loaded CG accurately?

 

[Zeus-cat]

Here is the link to the NAR certified motor page. Click on the specific motor and you will get more details. It looks like a D12 weighs about 37 grams.

https://www.nar.org/standards-and-testing-committee/nar-certified-motors/

 

[KenECoyote]

That's been one of my reference pics during this build

I think I'll order the Acme Conformal guides cause they do look like they'll keep with the missile theme (And I've got a crazy idea for a rail pad build)
In the mean time I'll fit the standard lugs and then move on to detailing and paint (I'll mask off where I want to place the rail guides)

Anyone know what a D12-3 motor weighs so I can work out my loaded CG accurately?

Funny! Also the "crazy idea for a rail pad build" sounds really interesting!

Any thoughts on reproducing/imitating the clear lens tip? I tried something on the Maverick (color shift paint over black base with clear coat), but it's no where close. I've seen one build where the person actually used clear plastic, but that sounds really involving (cool, but lots of work).

 

[K'Tesh]

And that, people, is part of what I did while in the USAF (except I was loading the F-111E with AIM-9P missiles, conventional weapons, and special weapons (nukes)).

Thank God none of the weapons I loaded were used in anger (I was outprocessing at the time Desert Storm started, and out 4 days later).

 

[TopRamen]

Lookin' great so far!

 

[NZM305]

Ken, I have thought of a way to do the clear lens, but it might be a little beyond my skills at the moment. I would need to make a mold and then use casting resin to make the dome, then cut the nose cone and fit the resin dome to it. A lot of work but I'm sure it would look really cool, maybe a future project.

K'Tesh, use to love when the Australian F111's would visit, always doing dump and burns during their displays . It sucks living in a country that has no fast jets flying, If we are lucky there is a once every couple of year visit from Australian Hornets.
My step son has never had the chance to see fast jets in real life, hope to take him to the Mach Loop if we get to the UK.

Thanks TopRamen, going to borrow the rivet technique that you used on your Alarm on this build, not sure how much they will stand out in flat black though but I'll give it a try.

 

[Tonimus]

Any thoughts on reproducing/imitating the clear lens tip? I tried something on the Maverick (color shift paint over black base with clear coat), but it's no where close. I've seen one build where the person actually used clear plastic, but that sounds really involving (cool, but lots of work).

Maybe a mirrored or chrome vinyl? That and some heat to set it down flat, I think would work well.

 

[Donaldsrockets]

Thanks for the kind words Cl, and Zeus-cat I have though about upgrading to a nylon chute, I think I will try it on the Mylar and see how it comes through. I still have to order motors etc so when I do that I'll get a nylon chute as well ready to go if the Mylar doesn't hold up.

I would actually go with a nylon chute right off the bat. Either toss that mylar chute in the trash or into a parts bin. If you're concerned about weight, Top Flight makes a line of orange colored thin-mill chutes that are very lightweight.

I built the TLP Folgore and my mylar chute ripped on the very first flight. These rockets are heavy. Add to that a rather high speed deployment and you can be nearly certain the mylar will rip. Replaced it with a nylon chute and haven't had any problems since.

Great job BTW. I think my next TLP kit will be the Hellfire as well.