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Bxtreme

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i was shooting off a estes taser kit using a c6-7 motor in the park near my house it was a nice quiet day no one was around and we used a big field there. there was a park ranger sitting there watching us set up and after a succesful launch he drove over and told us that "we couldn't do that here"
i had done it in the past with no problems and he even sat there and watched us do the first shot guess it scared him. cause he didn't know anything about it he was asking us if it used gas and all kinds of rediculous questions then decided we coulndt shoot there anymore.
well anywayz i was curious what the rules were?
this happened at Mercer Park near hamilton NJ.
 

shreadvector

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What exit?

but seriously....

Each State in the USA can have it's own fire regulations.

Each local government (county, city, etc.) can also have more restrictive regulations.

Estes has some legal info on their website (which is unusable unless you have the latest version of Internet Explore...), but we have some general info on our club website as well as detailed info for CA.

Luckily the Estes Educator website works with older IE versions:

http://www.esteseducator.com/content/laws.php

http://home.earthlink.net/~mebowitz/siteaid.pdf
 

shreadvector

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At least I did not say anything involving "Are we not men?"
 

jcDerRedMax

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http://nj.gov/counties/mercer/commissions/park/

http://nj.gov/counties/mercer/commissions/park/parks.html#3
This lists 2 mercer parks.

"All general park relations are strictly enforced and are posted."
I could not find a link to those, but if they are posted, generally they say "no RC aircraft, No model rockets, No fun of any sorts".

Funny, just noticed their mis-spelling.

Park user's guide:
http://nj.gov/counties/mercer/commissions/pdfs/parkguide.pdf

I didn't look around long, but didn't see their park relations (regulations). You might contact their office and ask about those regulations. Don't ask about rockets until you give it the once over.
 

stantonjtroy

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Call your local office of Parks & Recreation. Ask for someone in public relations or the rescource management dept. It wouldn't hurt to have some of the afor mentioned info at the ready when you make your call.
 

bobkrech

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http://lwd.dol.state.nj.us/labor/lsse/laws/Model_Rocketry_Act.html#1c2 is the law governing model rocketry in NJ.

This is what the law says about permits.

SUBCHAPTER 5. PERMITS

12:194-5.1 Permit restrictions

A person shall be required to obtain a permit for the storage of more than 100 kilograms (220 pounds) of solid propellant model rockets. No other permit shall be required for the possession, use, purchase, transportation, or sale of model rockets.

However NI has adopted NFPA 1122 as shown below.

12:194-1.3 Adoption by reference

(a) The standards of the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) 1122, "Code for Model Rocketry," 1994 edition and subsequent amendments thereto are hereby incorporated by reference as the rules for the manufacture and use of explosives in model and amateur rocketry. Copies of the NFPA 1122 may be obtained from the U.S. Government Publications, Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Printing Office, Washington, DC 20402.

(b) In addition to the standards incorporated by reference, this chapter sets forth additional rules governing the use of model and amateur rocketry.

NFPA and the NAR Model Rocket Safety Code also requires that you have the permission of the land owner to launch model rockets. While it is a public park, and although it may not be against any written park regulation, it is always wise to get a permission letter from the head of the park so that if a ranger comes up to you, you can show him the letter.

If not explicitly forbidden it's usually not hard to get a permission letter if you know the state and local laws, review the safety information on the NAR website, and be able to answer questions about the safety of model rocketry. You stand an even better chance to get permission if you are a current NAR member, you can show him your model rocketry "license", the NAR Model Rocket Safety Code, a copy of "Launch Safe" and a copy of the NAR insurance policy which covers you up to $1,000,000 if an accident should occur provided you followed all Model Rocket Safety Code Rules. (Municipalities really like insurance policies.)

If you look and act responsibly, and can answer questions about the hobby and it's impeccable safety record, you should be able to get a permission letter.

References:

http://www.nar.org/pdf/hobby_overview.pdf Historical safety record of model rocketry

http://www.nar.org/cabinet/MRSafetyCode.pdf Condensed version of NFPA 1122, the state of NJ regulations

http://www.nar.org/pdf/NAR%20Member%20Insurance%20Certificate%202009.pdf Copy of the individual NAR member insurance coverage.

http://www.nar.org/pdf/launchsafe.pdf Something everyone should read.

http://www.nar.org/pdf/Safety_in_Sport_Rocketry_Tutorial.pdf Something else everyone should read.

Bob
 

georgegassaway

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.......if they are posted, generally they say "no RC aircraft, No model rockets, No fun of any sorts".
Reminds me of a cartoon in Model Builder Magazine long ago. Two kids with a free flight model plane, and a park ranger saying: “You kids can’t do that here, this is a Public Recreation area!”.

- George Gassaway
 

Uncrichie

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Is this area near the Pine Barrens. I know certain areas of NJ this time of year have fire restrictions due to numerous forest fires. Just a thought? Also, not knowing your age if your a youngster that could also have something to do with it?
 

RandyT0001

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FRom the NJ Dept of Labor website:

SUBCHAPTER 4. CERTIFICATIONS

12:194-4.1 Certification requirements

(a) A model rocket shall not be sold, offered for sale, made available to the public, or used in this State unless it has been certified by the Commissioner of Labor and Workforce Development.

(b) Each model rocket certified by the National Association of Rocketry is deemed certified by the Commissioner of Labor and Workforce Development for sale and use.

(c) The Department shall maintain a current and complete list of all model rockets, which have been certified by the Commissioner of Labor and Workforce Development for sale and use and shall make such list available to the public upon request.
So NAR certifies model rockets now? I know they certify model rocket motors. Maybe the person that wrote this for website made a mistake. I'm thinking that the motors are what is actually regulated and not the model rockets themselves. I would write my state representative about this so that a correction could be made.
YMMV
 

sandman

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Reminds me of a cartoon in Model Builder Magazine long ago. Two kids with a free flight model plane, and a park ranger saying: “You kids can’t do that here, this is a Public Recreation area!”.

- George Gassaway
Similar to, "You can't fight in here, this is a war room!"
 

JStarStar

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FRom the NJ Dept of Labor website:



So NAR certifies model rockets now? I know they certify model rocket motors. Maybe the person that wrote this for website made a mistake. I'm thinking that the motors are what is actually regulated and not the model rockets themselves. I would write my state representative about this so that a correction could be made.
YMMV
Since NAR does not (and never has) certify rockets, only motors, it would appear that the regulation is actually referring to motors.

However any time you are dealing with the government, it is dangerous to assume anything.

I suppose at some point it might be an idea for the NAR to contact the state of New Jersey and suggest a clarification on the apparent logical contradiction.
 

Bxtreme

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Is this area near the Pine Barrens. I know certain areas of NJ this time of year have fire restrictions due to numerous forest fires. Just a thought? Also, not knowing your age if your a youngster that could also have something to do with it?
i am 29 andmy friend is 25 and i was there with my 2 year old son he loves watching launches!
we are both A&P Certified Aircraft Technicians.
no this is not near the pine barrens its just outside trento. it's a giant park with nice large feilds and a lake nice place you just can't have fun there.
j/k i guess i should have look more into it than just going there with out asking the funny part to me is that the ranger watched the first launch which tells me he liked it and wanted to see it go up but then he had to do his job. at least he let us do one shot right?
thanks again guys for all the info
 

cobra1336

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Bxtreme, send me a PM. I live about 20 min. from Hamilton and we have tons of farms out here (Jacobstown). Right now the fields are still active but soon they will be cut. I have also been thinking of a possible club near by. Have you ever seen the MDRA site. We do Red Glare events and they fly some BIG ! stuff. I'm at Level 2 and have finished my 1/2 scale Patriot. Flew it once but I'm thinking level 3.
 

mjennings

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Welcome to the forum!!

I'm not very familiar with the Northeast, I just moved to Philly myself, but according to NAR.org these guys are near by. MDRA is a bit of a drive but I do plan on checking it out at some point.

Central New Jersey Area Rocketry Society (CENJARS) #698
Michael Centrella
5 North Main St
Manasquan NJ 08736
Phone : (732) 528-4300

Activities: Sport Launches, Demo, Community Outreach to schools and scout groups.
Meetings: See Website (www.cenjars.org)
Launches: Monthly in Wall Township, NJ- Check website (www.cenjars.org) for details
 

shreadvector

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i am 29 andmy friend is 25 and i was there with my 2 year old son he loves watching launches!
we are both A&P Certified Aircraft Technicians.
no this is not near the pine barrens its just outside trento. it's a giant park with nice large feilds and a lake nice place you just can't have fun there.
j/k i guess i should have look more into it than just going there with out asking the funny part to me is that the ranger watched the first launch which tells me he liked it and wanted to see it go up but then he had to do his job. at least he let us do one shot right?
thanks again guys for all the info

I was too busy to relate this tid-bit from my part of Southern California. As I mentioned, CA has state fire regulations requiring permission of the property owner and also written permission ("permit") from the Fire Authority Having Jurisdiction. We have heard of numerous instances where an officer will sit and watch people set up and launch and then issue them the ticket for the $1000 fine.

I almost had that happen at a store demo launch several decades ago - the store said they obtained all permits and as we set up the roped off area in the parking lot a patrol car pulled up and sat there. I walked over and introduced myself and asked if there were any questions or if there was anything I could do. The officer then said that another store owner had called them to complain about the activity in the center parking lot and they were waiting to see if we were going to launch and then issue us a ticket. Needless to say, i got the hobby shop owner and the officer together and when we determined the store owner had lied to me about having a permit, I said "NO LAUNCH" and volunteered to simply do a static demo and class for a couple of hours.

Many years later - and only a few years ago - we heard from a store owner in the San Fernando Valley (right below the giant "Station Fire" site) who had an irate customer come in. She went to a park and set up to launch with her kids. Estes starter set, with 2 or 3 motors. As they set up, a police car parked in the parking lot and the officer sat there eating a sandwhich and watching. They figured that he was on a lunch break and was enjoying watching a nice family activity in the park. He watched them launch twice and then came over and wrote them up for a $2000 fine for launching without a permit. That's $1000 PER VIOLATION. If you argue or resist, you can be hit with the additional "and up to one year in jail for each offense".

As a result of that second incident we were asked to prepare stickers for every rocket item in the store to alert customers where they could find a legal launch site. These "LAUNCH SITE INFO:" stickers are now placed on as many items as our club members acan get to in stores throughout the Los Angeles area. Wal-Mart, Michales, Toys R Us, Hobby People, and the few remaining individual hobby shops.
 

Fred22

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Bxtreme, send me a PM. I live about 20 min. from Hamilton and we have tons of farms out here (Jacobstown). Right now the fields are still active but soon they will be cut. I have also been thinking of a possible club near by. Have you ever seen the MDRA site. We do Red Glare events and they fly some BIG ! stuff. I'm at Level 2 and have finished my 1/2 scale Patriot. Flew it once but I'm thinking level 3.
Great offer and idea:)
Cheers
Fred
 

Micromeister

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Just a bit more general information:
GERERALLY: most state and county park & recs. only allow Flying model activities by permit or are outright prohibited.

Several clubs have lost the right to fly model-rocket...and powered aircraft at many state owned or county run parks in the last few years.

Novaar and all flyers lost the use of Bull Run State park Picnic area as a launch and flying site a couple decades ago because rockets and powered aircraft didn't fit the "period" and the noise spooked horses on adjacent trails.

Vikings NAR Section just lost their flying field in Richmond after flying on the field for more then 5 years, as Model rocket flying is a "State Park" prohibited activity???? something written in the SOP that the county park officials had overlooked.

VAST HPR club just lost use of their Private Land flying field (Croft Field in Swoope, VA.) after the Augusta County, VA. Zoning board of appeals denied there request for a special use permit to fly...ON PRIVATE LAND. Again noise, spooking livestock on neighboring properties was one of the deciding complants.

Narhams has run into major County parks prohibitions in a couple Maryland areas, Mostly Montgomery county and Most STATE owned parks.

We've had several state parks deny use as a "prohibited activity" according to the state parks SOP.
So you see there really isn't a LAW. It's a preception, thats been writting into State and local park operating proceedures that take action for the STATE or County governments to overturn or addmend.
 
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shreadvector

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The reason the average Park regulation prhibits Model Rocket or Model Aircraft activity is that the AVERAGE American is not responsible enough to realize that their models can overfly other "Park Patrons" and if they do this, they can hit those unsuspecting park patrons who are simply trying to feed the ducks, have a picnic, etc.
 

dave carver

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VAST HPR club just lost use of their Private Land flying field (Croft Field in Swoope, VA.) after the Augusta County, VA. Zoning board of appeals denied there request for a special use permit to fly...ON PRIVATE LAND. Again noise, spooking livestock on neighboring properties was one of the deciding complants.


We fly off Bureau of Land Management land here and a one point had a launch site outside of Mtn. Home, ID. We shared the land with a lady that ran cattle on the rangeland. She complained to the rangers we were scareing her cattle. The ranger said basically, too bad. Her permit did not give her exclusive use of the land.

To top it off, those cows NEVER reacted to ANYTHING we launched, to the point of occasionally we had to chase them off. I DID see them run onetime; they took off at a full galope when the water truck showed up to refill their trough:rolleyes:

Cows are not afraid of rockets and all that is is an ignorant excuse:mad:
 
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shreadvector

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http://bovineuniversity.tvheaven.com/bovine1.wav

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qd8-zfIlDwY

We fly off Bureau of Land Management land here and a one point had a launch site outside of Mtn. Home, ID. We shared the land with a lady that ran cattle on the rangeland. She complained to the rangers we were scareing her cattle. The ranger said basically, too bad. Her permit did not give her exclusive use of the land.

To top it off, those cows NEVER reacted to ANYTHING we launched, to the point of occasionally we had to chase them off. I DID see them run onetime; they took off at a full galope when the water truck showed up to refill their trough:rolleyes:

Cows are not afraid of rockets and all that is is an ignorant excuse:mad:
 

Micromeister

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We fly off Bureau of Land Management land here and a one point had a launch site outside of Mtn. Home, ID. We shared the land with a lady that ran cattle on the rangeland. She complained to the rangers we were scareing her cattle. The ranger said basically, too bad. Her permit did not give her exclusive use of the land.

To top it off, those cows NEVER reacted to ANYTHING we launched, to the point of occasionally we had to chase them off. I DID see them run onetime; they took off at a full galope when the water truck showed up to refill their trough:rolleyes:

Cows are not afraid of rockets and all that is is an ignorant excuse:mad:

Dave:
Cows and Bison for that matter may not react badly to mod-roc launching, but horses, goats and other live stock have been shown to be Quite skiddish, spooked and/or stampeeded by a single BP motor rocket launch within a couple 1000 feet of them. I've personally seen several (3 or 4 in the group) people thrown from saddle horses on a trial after the launch of a single motor C6 model that was at least a 1/4 mile for them. I hate to think what they'ed have done with the ear piercing Crack from an E30 or higher APCP motor.

It's more our ignorance and lack of caring that cause such over reaching regs. not excuses at all.
 

dwinings

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The reason the average Park regulation prhibits Model Rocket or Model Aircraft activity is that the AVERAGE American is not responsible enough to realize that their models can overfly other "Park Patrons" and if they do this, they can hit those unsuspecting park patrons who are simply trying to feed the ducks, have a picnic, etc.
As a National Park Ranger, I know the origin of the "average" park regulation prohibiting model aircraft and model rocket. It stems from the fact that prohibition was originally in the CFR (Code of Federal Regulations) covering National Parks, and most local and state park regulation are adopted from that CFR. That provision has since been removed from the CFR, however most local governments don't revisit their local regulations after they adopted.

Dan
 

shockie

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As a National Park Ranger, I know the origin of the "average" park regulation prohibiting model aircraft and model rocket. It stems from the fact that prohibition was originally in the CFR (Code of Federal Regulations) covering National Parks, and most local and state park regulation are adopted from that CFR. That provision has since been removed from the CFR, however most local governments don't revisit their local regulations after they adopted.

Dan

Dan, I just knew it had to be the Federal Government's fault as they are the fountain of every rule, regulation,law,etc that a lawyer could possibly think of .

said kinda,sorta tongue in cheek.

Here in New Albany In Parks, you can't fly anything that "moves through the air" .... which I assume means balls, frisbees, etc although I do see soccer by illegal aliens being playing on my taxpayer paid local park where I can't even fly MMX. This is a state with no NFPA regulation! Can you believe this? But then right across the river in Louisville, KY, model rocketry is banned in those local parks too, in some cases because the local AMA club has such power, and they don't like model rocketry so they got it banned.

The NAR may consider partnering with the AMA and use some of that money they are going to receive and start a concerted education effort to get model rocketry back into local parks and schoolyards, or there won't be any model rocketry 20 years from now because nobody will have ever flown anything in any local park or schoolyard.

I guess we could all fly in our backyards, although I'm sure the neighborhood association also bans model rocketry from your own backyard. Or your home owners insurance , or some local zoning law,etc.....

Terry Dean
 

Fred22

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Sorry fellas I fly on school grounds and the city employees stop to watch only. Tough down there now I guess.
Cheers
fred
 

dave carver

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Dave:
Cows and Bison for that matter may not react badly to mod-roc launching, but horses, goats and other live stock have been shown to be Quite skiddish, spooked and/or stampeeded by a single BP motor rocket launch within a couple 1000 feet of them. I've personally seen several (3 or 4 in the group) people thrown from saddle horses on a trial after the launch of a single motor C6 model that was at least a 1/4 mile for them. I hate to think what they'ed have done with the ear piercing Crack from an E30 or higher APCP motor.

It's more our ignorance and lack of caring that cause such over reaching regs. not excuses at all.

Not mod rocs, High Power through M class motors.

Guess Idaho cows are made of tougher stuff than East coast cows. Of course, they may be conditioned by the proximity of Mtn. Home AFB and the training range very close to the area, if they can get used to F15's flying 500 knots just off the deck then a rocket launch isn't much in comparison.

I fly my mod rocs in my back pasture, have for years. My neighbors' goats don't care, either. Never seen the horses up the hill from me react anymore than raise their heads to the sound then drop them and continue feeding. Once again I live about a mile from the end of the airport and the constant air traffic most likely has conditioned them, too.
 

CharlaineC

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I know for rhode Island you need to get a permit from EACH city to fly. (though it is not inforced) though most citys will accept the permit from your home city. and their FREE. Most times when the permits are inforced is when d or e motors are used.
 
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