Update 5/ 25Excellent Flight Report Post 28 The TURBINATOR! Wide body BT-80 Horizontal Recovery

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BABAR

Builds Rockets for NASA
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BT-80 tube.

modular build, two 18” segments. If works at 36”,can drop to 18” if first run at 36” is successful.

BT-50 motor mount stuffer tube (D12-3 motor)

Twelve segmented BT-50 cut tube fins for rotation.

these don’t quiiiiiiitttee fit (too big) but I think if I evenly space then I can compress them just a bit.image.jpgimage.jpg
 
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12 evenly spaced marksView attachment 462370View attachment 462373
You can see the slightly elliptical compression of the tubes, but seem pretty minimal.
A bold and amazing approach to horizontal spin recovery! I dearly hope it succeeds in a level, sliding descent. But with that D motor, for sure it will provide a satisfying amount of noise and smoke. :)
 
I would run this as a heads up flight. Any tuber with fins this narrow has a tendency to cone. T-908 tube from BMS would also avoid any compression.
 
Pretty much complete.

the Mylar tape wraps will underly masking tape that will hold the two body tube sections together (36” without nose cone) in “Max” length mode (so I can add and pull tape without damaging the body tube. Also will have masking tape to hold nose cone on. Hopefully if it works in “Max” mode I can try it in ”Min” mode, which aside from nose cone will be half length (18”)

oops, glad I took picture two, almost forgot the vents on the ”Min” version.

I will follow the @cwbullet rule and see if this earns its paint!

I am a little concerned there is not enough “finnage” on this bird. Hopefully twelve partial tube fins will be enough. There is a forward launch lug segment to get this started off the pad, with a two inch long segment hidden in the tube fins in the rear.

winds 7 gusting to 9 today, hope for a chance to fly it.image.jpgimage.jpgimage.jpg
 
I would run this as a heads up flight. Any tuber with find that narrow has a tendency to cone. T-908 tube from BMS would also avoid any compression.
You are putting a wrinkle in my brain (what my Mom as a science teacher used to say. Not factually based, the number of “wrinkles” in your brain DOES supply more surface area for more neurons, so when properly formed brains that have more wrinkles (technically “sulcations”) have more capacity than “smooth brains.” But you don’t develop “new” wrinkles as you learn.

so tube fins have a tendency to cause the rocket to cone? Not something I am familiar with. These will be ultra weird tube fins because part of the lateral wall is cut out, not sure if that is good or bad from your “coning “ perspective.

I am expecting these to act as 12 very short fins, with the addition of a lot of added base drag.
 
CG 25” from nose tip, 17” from motor nozzle.

220 grams with D12-3 motor.

kicking myself a bit, I could easily have more that motor mount forward at least two and maybe three inches.

oh well, heads up flight indeed.

may not happen, it’s a pretty day and I suspect the park is gonna be full of soccer games.image.jpg
 
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I would run this as a heads up flight. Any tuber with fins this narrow has a tendency to cone. T-908 tube from BMS would also avoid any compression.
not familiar with T-908 tube, is it stronger? I looked it up. What DID look good on that page was a good price on 34” coupler stock. That likely would make much stronger incomplete tube fins, I am sure the cut out section severely weakens the structural integrity.
 


Well, surprisingly successful flight (wasn't sure it would be stable.) It was a nice slow lift of on the D12-3. Decent altitude, I think 300, maybe 400 feet. I have ordered an altimeter (my current two are lost somewhere) for future flights.

The Horizontal Spin orientation is excellent, it really does surprise me how effective the turbines are. If there is Magnus Effect, however, I am not seeing it. Not the greatest video. Unfortunately the wind was coming right out of the Sun direction, and I am not the best at aiming these. @rklapp , are you using a dedicated videocam or a phone cam for your focused in motion videos?

Anyway, I think this is a good concept for a small grassy field rocket. Enough drag to come down close to pad, but slow enough for no damage on grass, fins get a bit bent on pavement. With my next Balsa Machining Service order I might try some of their coupler tubes, those would make stronger tube fines.TurbinatorPic1 (2).jpgTurbinatorPic2 (2).jpg

TurbinatorLanding.jpg
 
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The Mini Version was entertaining, although in a different way.

Upward was stable, as expected a bit more altitude given we dumped half the length.

Couple of Pics of the nose cone preflight. I cut off the shoulder to reduce space, but put in a bulkhead in the cone to reduce the volume. As you can see in the follow up, maybe too successful

The ejection charge in the shortened version may have been a bit too powerful. I haven't seen both ends blow out, usually it is one or the other. In this case, I saw ejection, rocket came down "weird", could tell halfway down it had blown 1/2 the motor mount out!

Came down spiraling, then after it landed, heard a "clunk." Which was the completely ejected nose cone, I guess the tape obviously wasn't enough to hold it. It was only masking tape. I think that electrical tape would have held it tight enough, with a little tension.

The funny thing is, I was bummed about the original motor mount, I had fitted it sticking out too far, but once it was glued in, I figured I was stuck. Now I can redo it, mount the motor a bit more forward, slightly recessed into the outer tube.

Something nice about this model (I know, I am patting myself on the back), the relatively small width tube fins I think make for minimal weathercocking.

BlownNoseandMotorMount.jpgCone1.jpgCone2.jpgCone3.jpgNoseDeranged.jpgTurbinatorShort.jpg






 


Well, surprisingly successful flight (wasn't sure it would be stable.) It was a nice slow lift of on the D12-3. Decent altitude, I think 300, maybe 400 feet. I have ordered an altimeter (my current two are lost somewhere) for future flights.

The Horizontal Spin orientation is excellent, it really does surprise me how effective the turbines are. If there is Magnus Effect, however, I am not seeing it. Not the greatest video. Unfortunately the wind was coming right out of the Sun direction, and I am not the best at aiming these. @rklapp , are you using a dedicated videocam or a phone cam for your focused in motion videos?

Anyway, I think this is a good concept for a small grassy field rocket. Enough drag to come down close to pad, but slow enough for no damage on grass, fins get a bit bent on pavement. With my next Balsa Machining Service order I might try some of their coupler tubes, those would make stronger tube fines.View attachment 462424View attachment 462425

View attachment 462437


The Terminator/Barbarian would be proud.



When the rockets head for the sun, fogetaboutit. Figuring out where to stand while filming is half the battle. I was using my iPhone8. There's a trade off between stability and focus. I find that the iPhone had too much stability which is good when walking but not when tracking a speeding rocket. I try to zoom in when the rocket has reached apogee. Usually 2x to 4x works best then focus out when it's reaching the ground. It's definitely more of an art than a science. My new cam is a Sony HDR-CX405. I'm hoping to try it again today.
 
The Mini Version was entertaining, although in a different way.

Upward was stable, as expected a bit more altitude given we dumped half the length.

Couple of Pics of the nose cone preflight. I cut off the shoulder to reduce space, but put in a bulkhead in the cone to reduce the volume. As you can see in the follow up, maybe too successful

The ejection charge in the shortened version may have been a bit too powerful. I haven't seen both ends blow out, usually it is one or the other. In this case, I saw ejection, rocket came down "weird", could tell halfway down it had blown 1/2 the motor mount out!

Came down spiraling, then after it landed, heard a "clunk." Which was the completely ejected nose cone, I guess the tape obviously wasn't enough to hold it. It was only masking tape. I think that electrical tape would have held it tight enough, with a little tension.

The funny thing is, I was bummed about the original motor mount, I had fitted it sticking out too far, but once it was glued in, I figured I was stuck. Now I can redo it, mount the motor a bit more forward, slightly recessed into the outer tube.

Something nice about this model (I know, I am patting myself on the back), the relatively small width tube fins I think make for minimal weathercocking.

View attachment 462438View attachment 462439View attachment 462440View attachment 462441View attachment 462443View attachment 462444







Based on the timing marks in the video and your estimate of 400' altitude, it would seem the rocket descended at 20 fps. Do you have figure for the weight of the rocket?
 
12 evenly spaced marksView attachment 462370View attachment 462373
You can see the slightly elliptical compression of the tubes, but seem pretty minimal.
Another option would be to measure the difference in circumference and then build up the airframe with cardstock until it is the right diameter. The esthetics of the tube fins would then be normalized.

OOPS. Didn't see it was spin recovery...
 
I would run this as a heads up flight. Any tuber with fins this narrow has a tendency to cone. T-908 tube from BMS would also avoid any compression.
...or LOC tubes. They are 50% thicker than standard BT-80's and slightly less thick than BMS T-80H.
 
Something nice about this model (I know, I am patting myself on the back), the relatively small width tube fins I think make for minimal weathercocking.
I'm not convinced that's cause and effect. I was actually going to recommend going a bit larger with the tube fins.
 
I'm not convinced that's cause and effect. I was actually going to recommend going a bit larger with the tube fins.
Not often I disagree with you, but I think weathercocking of more along the “Carboard CutOut” physics impact than Barrowman physics. My reasoning is that it is a reaction to airstream vector (in this case wind) hitting the model relatively directly transverse to the longitudinal (pointy) axis. Tube fins “stick out” less, so they offer less transverse surface area upon which the wind acts.

if I am correct, if you have two rockets which have identical stability and are otherwise identical in body and nose cone size, shape, and weight,

rocket A has three “normal” fins.

rocket B has 12 fins, which have shorter hemi-spans but are otherwise identical in length, thickness, etc.

the B fins will be a bit more than 1/3 the hemi-span of A (because less hemi-span is less efficient) so somewhere between 1/3 and 1/2.

my theory is A will weathercock more, because regardless of presence or absence of rotation around the long axis (as seen from onboard video cams, most low power rockets rotate at least a bit, sometimes a LOT), at any given moment Rocket A offers more surface area perpendicular to the wind.

regarding larger tube fins, my main reluctance is structural. The larger the tube fin, especially since mine have cut outs, the more susceptible to fin flutter and simple bending forces. The BT-5 fins are holding up well, the BT-50 not so much. I may get some coupler material from BMS, or just double the thickness of the tubes.

Maybe cut a long slit the length of an 18” BT-50, coat outside with white glue, and slide it inside an intact 18” BT-50 and let dry before cutting first into lengthwise segments, then applying to rocket, then cutting out the “waterwheel” clockwise segment.

I also suspect that longer hemispan fins, while initially certainly far more effective at “catching air” to start the rotation, may BECOME an inhibition to rotation beyond a certain speed. It’s kinda like the original RotaRoc helicopters with no swivels or axles. The fins sticking out on descent likely reduce or inhibit rotation somewhat. It is one of the things I liked about the Fliskits TiddlyWink as well as the Gyskelion, Dandylion, DareDevil, and SunDancer helicopters, the fins used on Ascent don’t cause air resistance to rotation. Unfortunately, as @Rktman has pointed out, when located at the tips the mass effects angular momentum inertia, which is certainly bad for getting rotor spinning started (and come to think of it, for these models as well), and a generally a negative at flight termination as the rapid spinning inertia tends to break the fins/rotors.

@Dotini, your models have definitely proven me wrong, is was certain that without a ring for protection this fins would snap right off.

again thinking out loud, the largest diameter I am using should GENERATE more Magnus force (although I haven’t proven that in my models) but it will take a bit more time to get up to speed. However, while the “cool” factor of the Magnus force as YOUR models have shown is off the charts, the PRACTICAL value of it is still to me a mystery. But hey, if we wanted practical we would just have 3FNC, a chute, and call game! In any case, since it doesn’t slow the model, there isn’t as much urgency in ramping up the RPMs immediately post deployment as there is for a competition helicopter model.

i do wonder if maaaaaybeeee the Magnus force may turn the model into the wind, but I kind of doubt it.
 
If the rocket is not spinning, then what is the merit of slicing up the tube fins? Just run the same small tubes, but without the slots?
Not sure I understand the question. Without the spin, this will do a St. Louis Arch and come in ballistic. Without the cuts SPECIFICALLY placed ALL clockwise or ALL counterclockwise, the tube fins will not generate any spin at all.

waaaaiiiit a minute, though. I COULD make the cutouts in the mid length of the tube fins, and leave an intact segment at the forward and aft ends of each tube fin. It’s a compromise, but it might be a really good one. More drag and a bit less efficient, but a bit more durable, in fact, would be easy to reinforce. At a certain point however essentially comes back to my Bail Out Bill model.

currently working on “Devil’s Triangle 2– the BackSlider sequel”, which will be a non-spinning back slider, which traditionally requires a 30-1 length to caliber ratio.

hey Eric @Rktman, (also George, if interested @georgegassaway ) if the backsliders simply need a cardboard cutout CP ahead of CG, and a Barrowman CP BEHIND CG, why the need for the SuperRoc length? Why not a regular rocket with a bunch of stubby fins (like 12), each of which impacts Barrowman Stability at low angle of attack, but most of which contribute little or nothing to Cardboard cutout?
 
Based on the timing marks in the video and your estimate of 400' altitude, it would seem the rocket descended at 20 fps. Do you have figure for the weight of the rocket?
Not sure, I will try to weigh the forward removable body section and weigh it, subtract it from the 220 gram full stack with motor.

as for my eyeball estimate of 400 feet, I wouldn’t put much stock in it since I don’t fly altimeters so my sWAGS should definitely emphasize the small “s”!

I dunno, @rklapp, you’ve been flying a LOT of altimeter flights, how often are your visual estimates matching your altimeter readings? Say in the 200-500 foot range. @BEC and anyone else feel free to chime in.
 
Not sure I understand the question. Without the spin, this will do a St. Louis Arch and come in ballistic. Without the cuts SPECIFICALLY placed ALL clockwise or ALL counterclockwise, the tube fins will not generate any spin at all.
Okay. But can you quantify the spin rate? I am able to do that on my models by painting them contrasting colors like black/white, black/yellow, etc., and literally counting the number of times those colors change position per second in analysis of the video. Greater than 240 rpm seems like a number I'm getting on some of my flights.

On the way up, and at apogee, my models often have little to no spin. It is only after that when the spinning really starts. My Magnus series of models have a strong tendency to spin horizontally and counterclockwise, turn a widening counterclockwise spiral on the way down, and often land with the length of the rocket facing into the wind. I have no solid theory why this is happening. Investigation continues.
 
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Not sure, I will try to weigh the forward removable body section and weigh it, subtract it from the 220 gram full stack with motor.

as for my eyeball estimate of 400 feet, I wouldn’t put much stock in it since I don’t fly altimeters so my sWAGS should definitely emphasize the small “s”!

I dunno, @rklapp, you’ve been flying a LOT of altimeter flights, how often are your visual estimates matching your altimeter readings? Say in the 200-500 foot range. @BEC and anyone else feel free to chime in.
I’m sorry, it’s hard to tell but guessing 300ft +/-100ft. I’d have to have a clear shot of the tracking event. I know it’s very difficult to do without someone holding the cam unless you immediately drop the controller. You could also leave the controller on the ground and crouch to activate while holding the cam.

I like the shot of the rocket rotating down. I was doing some streamer launches today with altimeters so might be helpful when I post the video.
 
Not sure, I will try to weigh the forward removable body section and weigh it, subtract it from the 220 gram full stack with motor.

as for my eyeball estimate of 400 feet, I wouldn’t put much stock in it since I don’t fly altimeters so my sWAGS should definitely emphasize the small “s”!

I dunno, @rklapp, you’ve been flying a LOT of altimeter flights, how often are your visual estimates matching your altimeter readings? Say in the 200-500 foot range. @BEC and anyone else feel free to chime in.
Let's just say that by flying a bunch of altimeter flights one can train one's eye to estimate better. It's like estimating wind speed (which most everyone thinks is higher than it is when you measure)—after awhile you start to learn what 400 feet, for example, looks like for a model of a given size. But size, speed, flight path (especially if off vertical by much) and lighting can make it hard to get things close, even with practice.

When I have a group of Scouts or such at a launch I will often fly the same model as they've built with an altimeter and then let them estimate how high it went before telling them what the altimeter reports. That can be quite entertaining..... :D
 
Got two really nice flights on this today. One was on the C11-3, first time I have used this motor (I think). The narrator needs a Gibb Slap, it was really a 24 mm C11-3, not a C5-3. Didn't get a lot of altitude but pretty darn good for a demo.

Came down from that flight, popped out the motor and plugged in a D12, fired it off again. Hard to believe something this size recovers and flies again with no chute, no streamer, no wings, no rotors, just horizontal spin.

Alas, @Dotini , I am failing to emulate your Magnus effect. I had expected a bunch with this, due to the larger diameter. But either my small tube fins are sufficient to get this horizontal but not spinning fast enough to generate a lateral Magnus effect, or the Magnus effect is independent of diameter (I doubt the latter.)



20210523_091811.jpg20210523_091930.jpg
 
Got two really nice flights on this today. One was on the C11-3, first time I have used this motor (I think). The narrator needs a Gibb Slap, it was really a 24 mm C11-3, not a C5-3. Didn't get a lot of altitude but pretty darn good for a demo.

Came down from that flight, popped out the motor and plugged in a D12, fired it off again. Hard to believe something this size recovers and flies again with no chute, no streamer, no wings, no rotors, just horizontal spin.

Alas, @Dotini , I am failing to emulate your Magnus effect. I had expected a bunch with this, due to the larger diameter. But either my small tube fins are sufficient to get this horizontal but not spinning fast enough to generate a lateral Magnus effect, or the Magnus effect is independent of diameter (I doubt the latter.)



View attachment 465876View attachment 465877

Love the videos...
 
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