Thoughts on current project 38mm Hi Flier

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Devin Batten

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My first minimum diameter rocket was the Estes Hi-Flier. with the way it went off into the great blue yonder amazed me. Me being ambitious decided I wanted my next project to be an upgraded version. So I present the "Stupid Hi-Flier", cause it'll go "stupid high". Built around a H550


fiberglass body tube
6"x76" streamer for recovery
fins are 1/8" plywood


.rkt found here
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1aOwN1q5DfiGajl7P3TzRXPe_WdG6gyb4


Looking for feedback from the more "seasoned" fliers
 

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If you want to start doing high flying MD rockets, you need to think about tracking. I used a small RDF beacon for many years, which worked well but took time to find the rocket. Now I use the Featherweight tracker which will fit into a 29mm nose cone. The GPS output lets me very quickly recover the rocket. The other issue with MD rockets is keeping the fins on. If you are going past Mach, you need to make sure to avoid fin flutter - it has been the death of many rockets. A swept clipped delta shape is a good starting point. The other thing is making sure you have figured out how to do a good surface mount to keep them on. Your shape is a good starting point. But consider adding a layer or two of fiberglass. Going past Mach with plain plywood may be a challenge.

I fly a lot of MD rockets, it's really not as hard as some folks make it seem. But you do need to pay attention to your fins make sure you keep them on.

Good luck,


Tony
 
My first minimum diameter rocket was the Estes Hi-Flier. with the way it went off into the great blue yonder amazed me. Me being ambitious decided I wanted my next project to be an upgraded version. So I present the "Stupid Hi-Flier", cause it'll go "stupid high". Built around a H550


fiberglass body tube
6"x76" streamer for recovery
fins are 1/8" plywood


.rkt found here
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1aOwN1q5DfiGajl7P3TzRXPe_WdG6gyb4

Looking for feedback from the more "seasoned" fliers

Do you have your L1 certification?

It looks like you mostly scaled up the Estes kit?

The wall thickness on your airframe is less than a millimeter.

Have you sourced the nosecone?

https://www.rocketarium.com/Build/Nose-Cones/1.6-4?cPath=19_209&

What are you planning for motor retention?

Edit: According to the simulation (running in OpneRocket), you will go supersonic on an H550.
 
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The fins are on the larger side for the speeds you are planning (this is common when doing direct upscales of smaller rockets) and 1/8" plywood. You might want to run Fin Sim to check for potential flutter issues. Perhaps consider switching to 1/8" G10 fiberglass if it looks like the ply might not hold up.
 
Do you have your L1 certification?

It looks like you mostly scaled up the Estes kit?

The wall thickness on your airframe is less than a millimeter.

Have you sourced the nosecone?

https://www.rocketarium.com/Build/Nose-Cones/1.6-4?cPath=19_209&

What are you planning for motor retention?

Edit: According to the simulation (running in OpneRocket), you will go supersonic on an H550.

Yes I am an L1
Yeah, that was the intention was to make a big boy version of it.
Yeah, for some reason when i save certain details it doesnt keep i.e. streamer length
I am looking for a source for the nosecone if not ill end up changing it, or making one.
K clips for the motor retention.
 
The fins are on the larger side for the speeds you are planning (this is common when doing direct upscales of smaller rockets) and 1/8" plywood. You might want to run Fin Sim to check for potential flutter issues. Perhaps consider switching to 1/8" G10 fiberglass if it looks like the ply might not hold up.

Ill have to do that. Always in the market for new ways to test before putting it on the rail.
 
For the build I recommend ditching the ply and going with G10. ...3/32 G10 at that.

Prep the surfaces to perfection and bond with Aeropoxy ES 6209 or better

Then let her rip
 
Devin, good luck with your flight. IMO, as others have stated. Fins are to large, fin material may not be up to mach flight. If you are doing MD, consider friction fitting motor with aluminum tape on the outside. If you go with G10 fins, I like to drill very small holes at the root to help with bonding, rough up all glue joints with 36 grit, use a good epoxy, Rocket Poxy, Aeropoxy, or Hysol 9462. All have good shear strength and will make good fillets. Ditch the launch lugs and use a flyaway rail guide, or tower. Taper all fin edges, including the TE. Make NC bulkhead removable so that you can add or subtract weight as needed. You may need to add weight to get the altitude. Rocket will need to be as smooth as can be, painted, polished, waxed, believe me, it helps. Also paint it red, red is the fastest color :)
 
Ditch the ply for the fins. Get in contact with Nat Kinsey of Upscale CNC. He can cut the fins out perfectly. ([email protected]). For a 38mm minimum diameter you should be okay with 3/32 G10, and definitely okay with 1/8" G10.

Looking at your sim you have a max velocity of mach 1.57, and your fins are very tall, giving them a lot of leverage at the tip if they flutter. I can run it through finsim for you if you give me the dimensions. If you want this specific shape of fin I would probably want laminate with a layer of unidirectional carbon facing 90 degrees to the body. I have flown mach 2 without lamination, but that is with a longer root and very short fins, fillets done with RocketPoxy. The reason I recommend the carbon is to hold the fins onto the airframe and to resist torsional forces. With minimum diameter you don't have the leverage of through the wall fin mounting to reduce the stress on the epoxy joint. I would say you definitely should have some sort of active tracking. The Featherweight GPS tracker is really easy to use and doesn't require a license. I have heard good things about the Big Red Bee 900 as well. I personally use a TeleMetrum or TeleGPS with a TeleBT ground station and Arrow 440 Yagi.

I would suspect that this will fly around 4,000-6,000 feet on the H550, while this is not too high for visual tracking, especially with a reflective streamer and large landing field, but I would choose to get a tracker just to protect my investment in the rocket, it also then opens you up to putting something like an I motor in this too.

Just my $0.02, wanted to chime in and offer my (relatively limited) experiences with minimum diameters.

Read this article: https://www.rocketryforum.com/threa...our-government-doesnt-want-you-to-know.58389/
 
My first minimum diameter rocket was the Estes Hi-Flier. with the way it went off into the great blue yonder amazed me. Me being ambitious decided I wanted my next project to be an upgraded version. So I present the "Stupid Hi-Flier", cause it'll go "stupid high". Built around a H550


fiberglass body tube
6"x76" streamer for recovery
fins are 1/8" plywood


.rkt found here
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1aOwN1q5DfiGajl7P3TzRXPe_WdG6gyb4


Looking for feedback from the more "seasoned" fliers

Devin where are you on this?
 
Finally got to a point to where I've started making progress. Currently have all the pieces in order for it to be completed just a few misc kinks to work out.

20211023_210858.jpg
Cut the fins from 1/8" fiberglass with a dremel.

Body is BT60 from mach 1 with couplers for nose and motor mount

Nosecone will be a custom fiberglass.

Kinks
Still have to work out the electronice due to the motor I have selected (H-999) being a plugged. Might step it down to a H-550. Similar numbers just a little less speed and max alt.

To stick with the streamer idea or switch to chute with JLCR

Shock cord attachment.
 
Finally got to a point to where I've started making progress. Currently have all the pieces in order for it to be completed just a few misc kinks to work out.

Cut the fins from 1/8" fiberglass with a dremel.

Body is BT60 from mach 1 with couplers for nose and motor mount

Nosecone will be a custom fiberglass.

Kinks
Still have to work out the electronice due to the motor I have selected (H-999) being a plugged. Might step it down to a H-550. Similar numbers just a little less speed and max alt.

To stick with the streamer idea or switch to chute with JLCR

Shock cord attachment.
Your G10 fins are good at 1/8" - if you properly prep the fins and body tube and do good fillets, no need for any extra fiberglass. I've gone past Mach 2 with a variety of MD rockets and I've never done anything other than just surface mount. In addition to good surface mounting, the other biggest factor to success is fin alignment - from a longitudinal standpoint. A lot of folks worry about getting the fins right vertically, but if you have fins that are not perfectly aligned 'front to back' that can create very significant additional stress on the fins. I now use a 3D printed fin jig to try and create perfect alignment, but whatever you use, make sure to try and get them as close as possible.

I know I'll get flak for this, but I would just friction fit the case. I've done it with 6XL 54mm cases with no issues. It's not hard - you just have to practice until you get it right. Basically you wrap strips of tape that are cut to a point at the fore end and wide at the aft end in a spiral fashion around the last 1 -1/2" of the motor case or so. (They will basically look like screw threads.) When you push it in, you have to slightly twist the case the last inch or so. Once in, no matter how hard you pull on the rear closure the case should not move at all. You should need to push the case out from the front using a large dowel (like 1") or a piece of PVC pipe.

Otherwise buy a threaded closure and use a solid bulkhead with the proper sized hole for motor retention. But for that you will need electronic ejection.

The problem with any kind of electronics is it starts upping the cost and complexity. You could use the single deploy altimeter from Eggtimer (the Apogee) that costs $15 plus your time to build it. But now you need a payload bay - either in the body tube or nose cone. If you use a JLCR, you've basically stuck $125 in your rocket, so now you need to make sure you get it back and you need a tracker. And of course you have the cost of the case if you use a reload. If you stick with the DMS H550, you cut your losses if you don't get the rocket back. So it's a cascading decision once you start using electronics.

For recovery, in my experience, large streamers really do not work as well as they should when it comes to tracking rockets. I've used nearly every kind of streamer available, including several homemade versions. In nearly all cases they underperformed my expectations. In the end I tried making bright silver mylar streamers from emergency blankets. The biggest issue is that beyond a certain width they seem to fold inwards which greatly reduces the visible surface. And as they fall they twist up on themselves. I even resorted to using pieces of music wire to try and hold them straight. The other issue is unless you have good eyes on the rocket at apogee, it's nearly impossible to pick up the streamer on its way down. So if you really want to get it back, I think you'll need a tracker of some sort, or at least a very loud sonic locator.

For chute attachment one method I use on small diameter fiberglass tubes is to drill a hole straight thru both sides of the body tube and then insert a piece of music wire - 1/4" would be more than sufficient for that size tube. Cut the music wire as close to the right length as possible. Contour it to the body tube with a variety of methods, a grinding or sanding wheel on a Dremel, a small file, even sandpaper on a block all work. Use either epoxy or heavy CA to glue it in place. You can then use your choice of knot or other method to attach your shockcord to the horizontal piece of music wire. I've never had that method fail.

Minimum diameter rockets, especially in small body tubes, offer some unique building challenges. And then you have to get it back.

Good luck and keep us posted,


Tony
 
I appreciate the insight. Same thought process into all my rockets. Thats why I was thinking the H550 was a good bet cause then Id be out just the materials. Unfortunately hunting one down is proving difficult.
 
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