Searching For a Suitable Launch Site

[cbwho]

Here's a thought, launch from large cemeteries? If you have a relative there then you could assume permission?

100 years ago, people used to picnic in cemeteries...

 

[Daniel Carlson]

Ha Ha Ha!!!!!! Yeah, that might work. Then I'll get chased out by ghosts.

 

[DabCat]

fill out a flight card before EVERY launch

The flight cards are very simple. The only reason they require them is so they know what to announce when they launch your rocket, and to save them and get a final count at the end of the launch. Here is what the 3 of the 4 flight cards for ROC at lucerne look like:

The red is for cert flights and questionable flights, the yellow is for high power, and the green is for low power.

All they really need is who's flying, what the rocket is called, what motor it has in it, and what pad they need to put it on.

 

[James Duffy]

I am not going to drive for hours, fill out a flight card, and wait in queue just to launch a B motor.

"Out there on Pad 2 we have something that looks kinda like a rocket. It's vaguely rocket-shaped, and has some fins. I think it may have a motor, and it smells like a B. Could be either Quest or Estes, it's anyone's guess. At any rate, it's hooked up to our launch system and shows continuity. I have no idea no high it is going to fly, what sort of recovery system it has, or even if glue was used when it was built. Further, I have no idea who it belongs to, or if they are a NAR or Tripoli member. So, no idea on insurance. Let's hope it doesn't land on your car. Heads up, hide your kids, and let's boogie. Five, four, three, two, one..."

That, my friends, is why we have flight cards.

 

[Buckeye]

Every national rocketry event (NARAM, NSL, LDRS) where I have flown a rocket requires the flier to fill out a flight card.
I fill out flight cards for 'local' launches also.
The only launches that I have attended that did not require filling out flight cards were Lucerne and DART on Fiesta Island.
Filling out flight cards is no big deal. I print them out ahead of time and fill in the blanks.
When I get to the launch I just have to do the final prep on my rockets, go to the check-in line, have my flight card signed off then go put my rocket on the assigned launch pad. Some rocket sections/clubs are more efficient at this process than others.

I've been filling out flight cards for rocket launches going back 35 years. It's no big deal.

The flight cards are very simple. The only reason they require them is so they know what to announce when they launch your rocket, and to save them and get a final count at the end of the launch. Here is what the 3 of the 4 flight cards for ROC at lucerne look like:
View attachment 488086
The red is for cert flights and questionable flights, the yellow is for high power, and the green is for low power.

All they really need is who's flying, what the rocket is called, what motor it has in it, and what pad they need to put it on.

"Out there on Pad 2 we have something that looks kinda like a rocket. It's vaguely rocket-shaped, and has some fins. I think it may have a motor, and it smells like a B. Could be either Quest or Estes, it's anyone's guess. At any rate, it's hooked up to our launch system and shows continuity. I have no idea no high it is going to fly, what sort of recovery system it has, or even if glue was used when it was built. Further, I have no idea who it belongs to, or if they are a NAR or Tripoli member. So, no idea on insurance. Let's hope it doesn't land on your car. Heads up, hide your kids, and let's boogie. Five, four, three, two, one..."

That, my friends, is why we have flight cards.

You are all totally missing my point. This isn't a rant against flight cards. I (and the OP, I think) don't see the value in having to deal with a formal, far-away, club launch just to have some LPR fun. There is something to be said for a personal, DIY launch close to home. Grab a few neighborhood kids for good measure. Unfortunately, this is getting harder and harder to do, and sounds downright impossible in Kalifornia.

 

[DabCat]

You are all totally missing my point. This isn't a rant against flight cards. I (and the OP, I think) don't see the value in having to deal with a formal, far-away, club launch just to have some LPR fun. There is something to be said for a personal, DIY launch close to home. Grab a few neighborhood kids for good measure. Unfortunately, this is getting harder and harder to do, and sounds downright impossible in Kalifornia.

Yeah I see your point, if you just want to fly a handful of estes motors, it's way too tedious. This is a hobby everyone should get to experience.

 

[smstachwick]

The only launches that I have attended that did not require filling out flight cards were Lucerne and DART on Fiesta Island.

Tripoli San Diego didn’t require it at the October launch for anyone flying low-power.

Of course, there was only one low-power flight that weekend aside from the 20 or so that I did, so I wouldn’t count on the same simplicity for something like Holtville Havoc.

In San Diego you can call the local fire department and request a permit to fly independently if you have a suitable launch site. I don’t believe there is any charge. Flying independently at Fiesta Island also requires a park use permit from Parks & Rec. It’s not impossible to fly independently, but the amount of work means that it’s probably just easier and more fun to fly with a club.

I’ll be notifying the forum if I get a permit to launch in Escondido. Not a club launch or anything, just an available permitted site and launch window. I plan to visit City Hall when it opens tomorrow

 

[smstachwick]

I just paid a visit to the Escondido City Hall and applied for a model rocket permit at Jesmond Dene Park. The application is pending and I’m hoping to hear back from them soon.

Here are the rules for a launch there, as copied from the Escondido Fire Department’s website.

• Model rockets are not allowed to be launched anywhere within the City of Escondido except for designated areas at Jesmond Dene Park.
• Rockets may be launched only between 8:30 a.m. and 11:00 a.m., Monday through Friday or Sundays. No launching is allowed on Saturdays.
• A permit must be obtained before any rocket can be launched. There is no charge for a model rocket permit.
• Launching permits are not granted between June 1 and October 31 due to the high fire hazard.
• Final approval must be obtained by telephone on the day of the launch.
• Only “A” and “B” model rocket engines are allowed.
• Launching must be supervised by an adult.

The “designated areas” are the baseball diamonds.



I requested a launch date of Tuesday, November 16th. I will post further updates when I get word of the permit being granted or denied. I did list myself on the permit as the only expected attendee, but if anyone else wishes to join me, I’ll give the department a call and see if I could get additional people on the application. I also have a blank one, if they do not allow this or if anyone just prefers to have their own permit.

At the recommendation of City Hall, I did pay a visit to the Escondido Fire Department and inquired about rules regarding staging, clustering, and airstarts. The official I spoke with there stated that she could not find any rules regarding this. For now, it appears that complex configurations are allowed, so long as they run on A or B power. Interestingly enough, there does not appear to be an installed total impulse limit aside from what’s attainable while still being in compliance with the NAR Code. Google Maps indicates that the field measures more than 400ft by 400 ft, which allows complex configurations up to 10 Newton-seconds of total impulse.

I can’t imagine that anybody would want to fly a complex configuration at such a small site, but I figured this was a fair question. Still, I couldn’t help but get the sense that I was the first to ask it.

I did not inquire about flying on fractional A motors. I can’t imagine they’d be a problem, and I think most would find it reasonable to consider them A motors for this purpose, anyway.

I’ll also be posting this notice in the United States Rocketry Events forum.

 

[Daniel Carlson]

I bet you'll be tossing & turning the night before, smstacwick. You can bet the farm and livestock I WOULD BE!!!!!! I'd arrive @0700L, just to examine the wind conditions. Just reading your thread has me EXCITED, although I might not make it out that morning. THANKS for the map, though.

 

[smstachwick]

I bet you'll be tossing & turning the night before, smstacwick.You can bet the farm and livestock I WOULD BE!!!!!! I'd arrive @0700L, just to examine the wind conditions. Just reading your thread has me EXCITED, although I might not make it out that morning.

I have some experience setting up special events. Charity 5Ks and community service projects, stuff like that, so I’ve gotten in the habit of arriving stupid early. I do get a bit excited the night before, but I also have the self-discipline to relax and get some rest.

Compared to the planning and permitting requirements for my Eagle Scout project, this should be old hat.

 

[Daniel Carlson]

I wonder how far away this park is from Temecula, where I have relatives?

 

[smstachwick]

I wonder how far away this park is from Temecula, where I have relatives?

Google Maps indicates about 26 miles along what is currently the fastest route. I think I drive a similar distance to fly at Fiesta Island.
By all means, see if you can spend some time with your family (assuming they’re generally pleasant people, obviously) and either use their place as a jumping off point or invite them to the launch.

Of course, I’d advise holding off on making concrete plans until I get the permit application result back. Even then, you may want to have a backup activity plan handy, since the Fire Department can still declare the 16th a no-burn day and scrap any flying plans as late as the morning of the event.

 

[Daniel Carlson]

Well Shane, I'll pray & knock on wood on this one. Daniel

 

[user 35280]

Ha Ha Ha!!!!!! Yeah, that might work. Then I'll get chased out by ghosts.

Have the following rocket with you and if someone comes up to you tell them you are doing honorable celebratory launches.
https://www.erockets.biz/altaira-rocketry-flying-model-rocket-kit-the-cremator-alt-1702/

 

[samb]

Excellent work, Shane. Persistence pays. Honestly, I don't think California is that far off from other parts of the USA. At least when you look at municipal areas. Plano Texas Parks and Rec allows permitted low power flying from April to October in a corner of their (our ? the taxpayer ) land. Try it on one of the big $$$ soccer complexes if you want some degree of trouble. Ask the questions, respect the neighbors, keep it simple. We are playing with fire after all. And when the spirit moves you, plan a weekend trip to a big 'ol club launch.

 

[smstachwick]

Excellent work, Shane. Persistence pays.

Thank you! I’d call this more a result of preparedness and politeness, though. I’m very glad persistence wasn’t part of the equation, that’s not really my strong suit when it comes to dealing with human beings.

Honestly, I don't think California is that far off from other parts of the USA. At least when you look at municipal areas. Plano Texas Parks and Rec allows permitted low power flying from April to October in a corner of their (our ? the taxpayer ) land. Try it on one of the big $$$ soccer complexes if you want some degree of trouble. Ask the questions, respect the neighbors, keep it simple. We are playing with fire after all.

Hobby rocketry is in a fairly unique spot, one where the participants and commercial vendors have just as strong an interest, if not stronger, than the regulators in safe and sustainable operations that don’t make life harder for other people. We can use this strong interest to build good relationships with the regulators, who may not know as much as we do about rocketry, and get their support so that we can fly courteously without creating undue burden on ourselves.

I think a lot of the uninitiated see kids firing off rockets and assume that they’re up to some kind of mischief. Best case, they think “illegal fireworks”, worst case they think that the nearby houses are being fired upon by pint-sized ballistic missiles. Doing the preparatory work with the authorities beforehand, establishing a regular community presence, and stressing range safety can help dispel those notions pretty quickly.

Which, of course, brings us full-circle to highly-organized clubs being the typical vehicle for such good practices to be in place. But it need not necessarily be so, as long as individual rocketeers are willing to do a little bit of work and commit to doing things the right way. Like it or not, we’re all potential ambassadors for our hobby when we fly. Let’s make sure we look good doing it, alright?

 

[smstachwick]

My permit has been granted.

As I stated before though, I listed myself as the only expected attendee. I do not know if they will be strictly enforcing the number for which the permit was granted or if they’re just using the expected attendance question to filter out applicants planning on inviting an unmanageable crowd, but to be safe I’m assuming the former for now.

Therefore, I’d like to have something resembling a definitive headcount of interested flyers before I write back to the department and request that others be added to my permit. I am therefore asking that anybody who is interested in attending please send me a count of themselves plus whoever else they would like to bring. Either a public posting in this thread I created in the United States Rocketry Events forum or a DM will do.

Once the count looks pretty stable, I’ll tally everyone up and submit the request to revise the permit to reflect the new anticipated attendance. I’ll also use this number to get an approximate count for future launches so hopefully we won’t have to do this again for a while. I’ll just file for the permits with that number and post a date if it’s been approved. Please bear with me for just this once.

If my request to add other attendees is denied, I’ll send a copy of the blank permit application to any interested flyers, so they can apply themselves without having to visit Escondido City Hall. Hopefully they’d be able to grant more than just mine on that day, I’d hate for others to be shut out just because I didn’t ask to be allotted a few plus-ones.

Further updates will be published exclusively in the thread I created, so be sure to follow that if you want to be in the loop.

 

[Daniel Carlson]

Glad to see you're good to go for the 16th, Shane!!!!!!

 

[Pete.D]

The San Diego NAR Section (DART) recently was able to use their launch site on Fiesta Island again.
Yes, it is an island (Almost. It's connected to the mainland by a access road).
There is a 1000' altitude limit (Lindberg Field is nearby) and plenty of other folks are using jet skies, powerboats and canoes.
Oh, there is also a dog park close to the launch area.
Vehicles are not allowed near the rangehead so it is a 100 yard walk from the parking area to the launch pads.
Still, it's better than nothing.

Wow, I just checked this out on Google (just typed "Fiesta Island" in search bar): Google Maps actually labels the launch site when you zoom in! I've never had that happen before for any hobby rocket launch site; usually you have to figure it out for yourself using specific co-ordinates or information.

It's a pretty small site, only 400 or 500 ft across but I'm amazed it's allowed at all being only 2 miles from Lindbergh Field, which is the main commercial airport for San Diego (it's not in the traffic pattern though, that's probably why they allow it).

I used to live in San Diego in another era, when Fiesta Island was not called that: it was the city dump. Back then (50 years ago) you could launch at Otay Mesa community college (now Southwest College) or pretty much anywhere around there with permission from a ranch owner: no ranches in that area now, just houses and shopping centers for miles... They had fires back then too, but nobody was too concerned about Estes rockets starting them.

 

[smstachwick]

Wow, I just checked this out on Google (just typed "Fiesta Island" in search bar): Google Maps actually labels the launch site when you zoom in! I've never had that happen before for any hobby rocket launch site; usually you have to figure it out for yourself using specific co-ordinates or information.

It's a pretty small site, only 400 or 500 ft across but I'm amazed it's allowed at all being only 2 miles from Lindbergh Field, which is the main commercial airport for San Diego (it's not in the traffic pattern though, that's probably why they allow it).

DART takes the extra precaution of making contact with the Lindbergh tower prior to the start of flight operations at the field. The field is not under the typical “racetrack” traffic pattern but there is a VORTAC beacon in the bay, so the site is flown over regularly by smaller aircraft. I think Lindbergh avoids assigning traffic to radials that overfly the field during launches, but any aircraft operating under Visual Flight Rules and has the right nav equipment may use it as long as they maintain separation and contact.

They had fires back then too, but nobody was too concerned about Estes rockets starting them.

The Cedar Fire of ‘03 changed things. That was really bad, and it underscored just how unprepared we were for a fire of that caliber.

 

[icyclops]

Excellent work, Shane. Persistence pays. Honestly, I don't think California is that far off from other parts of the USA. At least when you look at municipal areas. Plano Texas Parks and Rec allows permitted low power flying from April to October in a corner of their (our ? the taxpayer ) land. Try it on one of the big $$$ soccer complexes if you want some degree of trouble. Ask the questions, respect the neighbors, keep it simple. We are playing with fire after all. And when the spirit moves you, plan a weekend trip to a big 'ol club launch.

California is very restrictive….most of Northern CA you won’t be launching in any public park or field due to the fire marshalls.. simply put, you won’t be flying any motors like D, E, or F….no mater how big the field is. You can’t even fly A, B, C anywhere and most of the clubs have lost their launch sites…..all liability reaction unfortunately…..so enjoy all your launches in Southern CA…..

 

[Exactimator]

Wow, I just checked this out on Google (just typed "Fiesta Island" in search bar): Google Maps actually labels the launch site when you zoom in! I've never had that happen before for any hobby rocket launch site; usually you have to figure it out for yourself using specific co-ordinates or information.

It's a pretty small site, only 400 or 500 ft across but I'm amazed it's allowed at all being only 2 miles from Lindbergh Field, which is the main commercial airport for San Diego (it's not in the traffic pattern though, that's probably why they allow it).

I used to live in San Diego in another era, when Fiesta Island was not called that: it was the city dump. Back then (50 years ago) you could launch at Otay Mesa community college (now Southwest College) or pretty much anywhere around there with permission from a ranch owner: no ranches in that area now, just houses and shopping centers for miles... They had fires back then too, but nobody was too concerned about Estes rockets starting them.

If you search for "T.R.A.S.D launch site" in Google Maps you'll see where our Tripoli HPR launches happen, on a taxiway between runways at Holtville airport. And if you'd like, you can YouTube search "Holtville launch" and you'll probably find some rocket mounted camera videos where you see the distinctive triangle in the desert from different altitudes, spinning at various RPM's.

As far as Fiesta Island goes, we file a NOTAM and email the tower a few days before each launch. We call the tower when we start launching at 8 AM and again when we stop at noon. For years they barely responded. Recently they started thanking us for the info. Then several months ago during a day with spotty rain showers, they called us during the launch and asked us to stop because they had to reverse the landing direction due to weather. First time we'd gotten a call FROM the tower in the 9 years I've been at the location. The flights were still not close, but we complied and watched the ATC apps until we saw them reverse direction again, gave them a call and asked if we could resume launches and were approved.

We've never had an airliner close to our field. We're not under the pattern. Occasionally a USCG Blackhawk will fly directly over us. The SDPD helicopter likes to orbit a bit north of us for some reason, probably training. On sunny days around 10:30 the tourist biplane charter flight from Montgomery Field ignores the NOTAM and flies over. It's a short pause while we wait for them to clear out.

For the OP, we start at 8 AM. The wind begins blowing and increases all morning, typically by noon it's strong enough for us to stop. We coach people to arrive and launch as early as possible. You'd need to leave really early in the morning to get all the way to Fiesta and get some good launches in.

SCRA launches at Santa Fe Recreational Dam, which is closer to you. Shreadvector here on TRF runs those launches. I've never been there and have never met met him so I can't provide much info. I've never heard about the request to pay for launch fees or lunch with gold dollars or $2 bills. But that's an old military trick. Back in the day paymasters distributed payroll by doling out cash to everyone on base. Occasionally a town nearby a military base would start complaining about something. The noise, traffic, or rowdy liberty problems coming from the base. Soon after the base commander would direct the paymaster to distribute payroll in silver dollars because it was distinct. As the silver dollars flowed into the nearby town's economy through retail and services, the locals would see how much money the base brought into the town and the complaints would stop. I would assume that's what Fred is going for. I have no idea how many people attend the SCRA launches so I don't know how effective this would be.