Russian Moon Lander Crashes

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The Russian space program has gone from achieving the only landings on Venus and the first robotic sample returns to being 0-for-3 on interplanetary missions since the fall of the Soviet Union. It has been dying for a long time and they may be done with anything outside of satellite launches once ISS is retired. Soyuz has nothing else to do.
 
The Russian space program has gone from achieving the only landings on Venus and the first robotic sample returns to being 0-for-3 on interplanetary missions since the fall of the Soviet Union. It has been dying for a long time and they may be done with anything outside of satellite launches once ISS is retired. Soyuz has nothing else to do.

Hasten the day our partnership expires on the ISS with Russia. It's a disgrace we're stuck up there with no good way to terminate our cooperation with Putin at the time he's brutally invading Ukraine.

I know I'll get responses like "We need to cooperate in space to foster peace on earth."

Yeah, how's that working out up there?

The expiration date for this Clinton era policy expired years ago. Maybe it seemed like a good idea at the time (the '90s) but it's clearly past its usefulness, especially as it's demonstrated it hardly influenced Russia into being a good neighbor and citizen of the nations who want peace.

Note to NASA: Never get us into a cooperative venture like ISS with no good way to get out if the other partner becomes toxic.

P.S. NASA should also immeaditely do the one thing it can to to express our disaproval of Putin's war---Terminate the launch swap agreement wherby we launch a Russian on Dragon and they launch one of our guys on Soyuz.
There is no operational reason to do that---it's even worse the Administation started the swap last summer----months after the invasion.
It should really stop. Now.
 
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There actually is. If the other spacecraft has to go home in an emergency, there is always at least one Russian to operate the propulsion/station keeping systems, and one American to operate the power systems.

That's not really a plausible scenario as the recent Soyuz problem demonstrated---Russia just launched another Soyuz (unmanned) to bring the crew back instead of using the one whose cooling system failed.
There's plenty of "safe haven" time up there to obviate the need to do this launch swap.
 
That's not really a plausible scenario as the recent Soyuz problem demonstrated---Russia just launched another Soyuz (unmanned) to bring the crew back instead of using the one whose cooling system failed.
There's plenty of "safe haven" time up there to obviate the need to do this launch swap.
What about an emergency where the humans need to go back down immediately?
 
What about an emergency where the humans need to go back down immediately?
Burt Rutan was working on that. I cannot remember which X-plane it was designated, but I think it eventually became Dreamchaser. But the idea in the late 1990's/early 2000's was to develop a space-station "lifeboat" which would be permanently docked at the space station, and be used only as a crew return vehicle in an emergency. It was supposed to land like a plane at any available runway, and was mostly lifting-body derived. But the original name has slipped my mind (I must be getting old)....
 
Burt Rutan was working on that. I cannot remember which X-plane it was designated, but I think it eventually became Dreamchaser. But the idea in the late 1990's/early 2000's was to develop a space-station "lifeboat" which would be permanently docked at the space station, and be used only as a crew return vehicle in an emergency. It was supposed to land like a plane at any available runway, and was mostly lifting-body derived. But the original name has slipped my mind (I must be getting old)....
The X-38. It had no nickname other than "crew return vehicle," and it has nothing to do with the Dreamchaser except some possible inspiration. Burt Rutan had nothing to do with it either.
 
What about an emergency where the humans need to go back down immediately?

NASA and Russia clearly long ago accepted a risk like that---a scenario that requires not one, but two major failures---one that makes the Space Station unihabitable (a fire, a decompression) coupled with a disabled return spacecraft.

Protecting against that would require two Crew Dragons and two manned Soyuz present at all times. We don't do that as the risk as per above has been accepted. And no one was willing to pay the extra costs and operaional complexities invilved with dual manned craft present at all times.

Going back to the recent Soyuz coolant system failure, on its return internal temperatures exceeded 110F degrees, as I recall. Add to that a crew of three and the temperatures would have gone much higher, increasing the danger to the crew and increasing the chances of equipment failure before it could complete reentry.

So that's a long way of saying the crew swap under either of these scenarios would have done nothing to safegaurd the return of a crew.

And as others have pointed out here, NASA long ago abandoned the life boat vehicles to enhance crew safety and assured reentry, again accepting the (slight, possibly) risk increase involved. No HL-20, no X-38.

So, again,we may be stuck up there co-habiting with Russia, but no need to swap crew launches. That practice should cease. Unless you just like sending NASA astronauts over there where Putin's army is committing war crimes in Ukraine.
 
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Protecting against that would require either two Crew Dragons and two manned Soyuz present at all times.
The sentence above needs to be fixed. "Either...and" makes no sense. You either mean "both...and" or "either...or."

Regardless, you are thinking only of hardware failures. In case there is a medical emergency or other scenario requiring someone to get down to Earth quickly, they leave along with the entire crew of the spacecraft they came on. If this happened to a Russian, without the crew exchanges, there would then be no Russians trained on the propulsion systems. If this happened to the Western side of the station without the crew exchanges, there would be no American to operate the power systems.
 
The sentence above needs to be fixed. "Either...and" makes no sense. You either mean "both...and" or "either...or."

Regardless, you are thinking only of hardware failures. In case there is a medical emergency or other scenario requiring someone to get down to Earth quickly, they leave along with the entire crew of the spacecraft they came on. If this happened to a Russian, without the crew exchanges, there would then be no Russians trained on the propulsion systems. If this happened to the Western side of the station without the crew exchanges, there would be no American to operate the power systems.

(My faulty writing above fixed on edit---thanks)

Sure, one can imagine any number of scenarios for crew emergenices or hardware breakdowns up there but, NASA and its ISS partners have accepted the risks of spaceflight and have designed ISS systems and operations as best they could to cover any reasonable contingency.

None justify the current crew swapping.

Sure, a crewmember could have appendicitis, or a heart attack, or go mental. Or, even a female crew member gets pregnant---do you evacuate her? Or leave her to give birth in zero g? Do you isolate the deranged crew member and sedate him/her before going to the trouble to bring him/her down? Is it bettter to leave a heart attack victim up there in a pure oxygen environment with medical monitoring before rushing him back down? (NASA actually noted that Jim Irwin's heart issue on Apollo 15 in such an enviroment was actaully a good thing under the circumstances)

Re-boost via the Progress vehicle is hardly a time-critical problem---the ISS would not fall out of orbit in any reasonable time before a replacement Progress could be on station, so a re-boost "crisis" is not a rreasonable scenario.

There's no end to disaster scenarios. But also no need for this crew swap with a Russia we are fighting a proxy war with.
 
Apparently, as they were changing orbits to prepare for landing later in the week, Roscosmos lost control and the lander impacted the moon's surface.

I blame the moon, which must have changed it's orbit and attacked the poor defenseless Russian craft.
If war on Ukraine doesn't pan out, Putin can always bump-up his poll rating by de-Nazifying the Moon, the evil puppet of the West...

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Re-boost via the Progress vehicle is hardly a time-critical problem---the ISS would not fall out of orbit in any reasonable time before a replacement Progress could be on station, so a re-boost "crisis" is not a rreasonable scenario.

There's no end to disaster scenarios. But also no need for this crew swap with a Russia we are fighting a proxy war with.
I am not just talking about re-boost when I am talking about the propulsion provided by the Russian segment, I am talking about general stationkeeping; something that needs to be monitored every day. It's not just about keeping the orbit high, it's also about keeping the station oriented correctly and possible emergency maneuvers if some other object in orbit is going to get too close. All of that is performed by Russian equipment, necessitating at least one Russian on the station at all times. On the flip side, again, at least one American must be on the station at all times to operate and maintain the power systems.

It's not a good thing, but at this time, the crew swaps remain necessary to maintain both Americans and Russians on the station in an emergency situation requiring the departure of one of the crew vehicles.

I blame the moon, which must have changed it's orbit and attacked the poor defenseless Russian craft.
If war on Ukraine doesn't pan out, Putin can always bump-up his poll rating by de-Nazifying the Moon, the evil puppet of the West...

View attachment 599280
That is Mimas, a moon of Saturn, not Luna.
 
I am not just talking about re-boost when I am talking about the propulsion provided by the Russian segment, I am talking about general stationkeeping; something that needs to be monitored every day. It's not just about keeping the orbit high, it's also about keeping the station oriented correctly and possible emergency maneuvers if some other object in orbit is going to get too close. All of that is performed by Russian equipment, necessitating at least one Russian on the station at all times. On the flip side, again, at least one American must be on the station at all times to operate and maintain the power systems.

It's not a good thing, but at this time, the crew swaps remain necessary to maintain both Americans and Russians on the station in an emergency situation requiring the departure of one of the crew vehicles.

We'll just have to agree to disagree here.

But back on topic---Russia has demonstrated it is a one trick pony in space---Soyuz Launch vehicle (circa 1950s) and Soyuz manned spacecraft (first flight 1967) are about the only things that work well for them in space.

Outside of early lunar success and impressive Venus success, they just can't produce any deep space success.

Contrast that to US successes---Mariners, Vikings, Pioneers, Voyagers, Galileo, Magellan, all those Mars landers and rovers, and more recent ones whose names elude me at the moment, to name just a few.

Phobos/Grunt is their last Mars try, I think, and it's at the bottom of the Pacific, having failed to leave low earth orbit.

Russia's space program these days is a lot like Atlanta's Varsity Hot/Chili dogs---something not really all that great, but survives on its reputation.

Sorry if I offend Varsity fans...

And to be fair to Russia (as it pains me) I wish we'd have kept the Apollo/Saturn hardware the way they kept their Soyuz (as above). We could have improved on both as technology came available and probably would be landing S-IB and S-IC Saturn stages at te Cape the way Musk does now, just years earlier.

Just sayin'...
 
Speaking of Venera landers that the USSR were flying to Venus, one of them is coming home to roost. I have been watching it for a couple of years. Kosmos 482 failed to execute its engine burn to get it out of earth orbit in 1972. It has been steadily decaying since. Currently apogee is around 1500km and perigee has been seen below 200km. This will make it to the surface intact. It was designed to land on Venus. I guess we will see it in another year or two.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosmos_482
https://www.n2yo.com/satellite/?s=6073
 
Wow, won't that be exciting when that thing crashes into Georgia Lass!!


(if nobody gets the joke, Look up Dead Like Me (TV Series)).
 
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