other topics - launch system safety

[Antares JS]

5. I have left aft closures loose before and inserted igniters at the pad for moonburners. Having a small table and chair on the range side of the flight line certainly makes it easier. Wouldn’t that work for aerospike motors as well?

Yes, this is exactly what I did to fly a J615ST at Red Glare back in spring. I just mounted the rocket on the rail and disassembled the aft end to get the igniter in while sitting on the ground next to it.

 

[Steve Shannon]

Yes, this is exactly what I did to fly a J615ST at Red Glare back in spring. I just mounted the rocket on the rail and disassembled the aft end to get the igniter in while sitting on the ground next to it.

Thank you! I know it’s not as convenient as doing so at your own table, but it really is important. So I really appreciate it.

 

[cerving]

Yes, this is exactly what I did to fly a J615ST at Red Glare back in spring. I just mounted the rocket on the rail and disassembled the aft end to get the igniter in while sitting on the ground next to it.

It's a pain, but yes, that's the safest way to do it.

 

[jmasterj]

5. I have left aft closures loose before and inserted igniters at the pad for moonburners. Having a small table and chair on the range side of the flight line certainly makes it easier. Wouldn’t that work for aerospike motors as well?

That's what I did with the J615 I've flown as well. Definitely a pain in the ass, but I did it and it worked. Maybe I'll bring a stool or a tray or something next time. The aerospike nozzle has multiple parts that make it even more difficult than a standard motor to reassemble.

 

[Steve Shannon]

That's what I did with the J615 I've flown as well. Definitely a pain in the ass, but I did it and it worked. Maybe I'll bring a stool or a tray or something next time. The aerospike nozzle has multiple parts that make it even more difficult than a standard motor to reassemble.

Thank you!
I would like to see launch organizers for all large launches provide a table and chair on the field where people could go and prepare rockets that require that extra bit of attention, such as multi-stage rockets, moonburners, aerospike motors, or head-end ignition. It could be used for installing or removing igniters.

 

[AlexBruccoleri]

I want to thank @cwbullet for posting this here. I had not read about the details until he posted although my life has been busy lately and I may have missed other references to the information. This incident violates basic rocketry common sense on a lot of levels. I was worried that this incident was going to be one where the flier was implementing reasonable safety precautions and an accident still happened. That would be spookey....This incident acts as a reminder to always implement safety precautions.

Rocketry electronics should always be assumed finicky. After all they fly in rockets and can get damaged and act strangely. Anyone hooking up a pyro should be prepared for it to go off suddenly. It is crazy someone would have an igniter in a motor hooked up to a flight computer inside a hotel.

 

[Banzai88]

Thank you!
I would like to see launch organizers for all large launches provide a table and chair on the field where people could go and prepare rockets that require that extra bit of attention, such as multi-stage rockets, moonburners, aerospike motors, or head-end ignition. It could be used for installing or removing igniters.

The only way to assure this as a best practice is to codify it in some manner.

 

[cerving]

The only way to assure this as a best practice is to codify it in some manner.

I agree. I have never seen this done, at any launch... including several LDRS's.

 

[Banzai88]

I agree. I have never seen this done, at any launch... including several LDRS's.

Same with the Red Glares that I've attended. Same with some of the early and late season launches at Bayboro, which with student launches can be as big and active as any Red Glare I've ever attended.

Bottom line is the aerospike is a (so far) one-off exception, but there are others like the multi stages, that would also benefit from the standardization of the practice of a designated area.

Me, I've never seen any special prep area, so when I have an exception, I ask the RSO and follow their direction.

 

[Buckeye]

Years ago, I saw an igniter prep table, about halfway from the RSO to the pads. I have not seen a club use one recently, though.

 

[boatgeek]

The only way to assure this as a best practice is to codify it in some manner.

At some point, I would call this a flyer responsibility. Of course, that's easy for me to say since my only staged HPR rocket is pretty small (2x29mm motors) so it's not really an issue to set it on the ground at the pad (pointing away from the crowd) to insert the sustainer igniter. If I had a rocket big enough to really want a table, I'm sure I could either carry out a small folding table or ask an adult spectator to help me carry it out.

The big-brain move would be to figure out a system to cradle the sustainer on the rail so that you can do all of the final prep on the lowered rail.

 

[AlexBruccoleri]

The only way to assure this as a best practice is to codify it in some manner.

I think the current codes are fine with respect to igniters. I fly at a lot of monthly launches that are fairly sparse and often fliers can walk to and from the launch rails from their cars without going near anyone. I think leaving this up to the RSO's discretion is best.

 

[Steve Shannon]

I think the current codes are fine with respect to igniters. I fly at a lot of monthly launches that are fairly sparse and often fliers can walk to and from the launch rails from their cars without going near anyone. I think leaving this up to the RSO's discretion is best.

That’s it in a nutshell. Lots of launches have no need for a special preparation area. It’s simply a tool in the toolbox that makes it safer and more convenient to prepare certain types of rockets and motors. But apparently I need to do a better job of informing people about them.

 

[cls]

I agree. I have never seen this done, at any launch... including several LDRS's.

Most launches have trouble filling all the usual slots with volunteers, not sure where this extra person would come from.

Seems to me, roving RSO doing in camp checks works ok.

 

[Steve Shannon]

Most launches have trouble filling all the usual slots with volunteers, not sure where this extra person would come from.

Seems to me, roving RSO doing in camp checks works ok.

This is a table and chair, not an additional volunteer.

 

[OzHybrid]

This is a table and chair, not an additional volunteer.

It's a designated area. Just that. No table or chair required, though that would be nice.
If someone was smart and arranged it with the RSO prior, that could be very close to where it was needed for the launcher, provided that was safe.

 

[rharshberger]

This is a table and chair, not an additional volunteer.

Thats how we do it, if necessary or we say go over there and make sure everything stays pointed in THAT direction. We (usually I as RSO) have had one aerospike motor and one HEI and multiple two stage oddities to deal with, most times with these special cases I will be nearby observing the process from a safe but still able to clearly see distance.

 

[rocketchick]

I agree. I have never seen this done, at any launch... including several LDRS's.

This has been done at several large launches! The KLOUDBusters’s have a table just east of the Away Cell for installing head end igniters and such. We have been doing this at Airfest for years and also did it at LDRS 38! You have to supply your own chair if needed though and it’s not a volunteer position, but the away cell volunteers are close by at a distance if needed.

 

[Steve Shannon]

This has been done at several large launches! The KLOUDBusters’s have a table just east of the Away Cell for installing head end igniters and such. We have been doing this at Airfest for years and also did it at LDRS 38! You have to supply your own chair if needed though and it’s not a volunteer position, but the away cell volunteers are close by at a distance if needed.

Thanks! This may be one of the many reasons why the KLOUDBusters have such an excellent record of safety, while handling huge numbers of eager flyers!

 

[Precision3D]

I had a J800T go off in my face last year. it was vertical, on the rail with alt's armed. I was able to get out of the blast zone, was not hurt. It was determined that a failure of the launch equipment had caused the ignition. This was on an away cell, a new rule was implemented that one lead from the launch relay must be disconnected before installing ignitor. At least this way you are several feet from the rocket, and not underneath it, as I was, if something were to light.

The key should never be in the firing system and if it runs off external battery, they should be unplugged.
This is standard in the pyro industry, not sure what it is in the rocketry community but it should be the same. Accidents happen with E-match , especially with no humidity which helps static form.

 

[David Schwantz]

System was off and safe. We had a failure at the pad box.

 

[jsdemar]

System was off and safe. We had a failure at the pad box.

Get into the habit of clicking the clips together to look for a spark before connecting the igniter. For any size motor and any launch system. This mitigates any problems with a poor launch system design or human factors outside your control!

Remember we have a thread branched off of this one for enrgetics safety discussions not related to the NSL incident.
https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/energetics-safety-circuits.182064/

 

[cwbullet]

We has an issue with someone coming uncomfortably close to the waiver. At Freedom Launch, we added a new rule this year. I required a submitted flight plan (google form) with each flight that goes above 7K (70% of the waiver), or K and above. I SIM'd the flights. I might add clusters and staged high power flights to the list.

It really did help RSO the flights and prevent on flyer who would have tickled the waiver at that launch. I can't RSO every flight on the field, but if I pre-RSO these flights, I think it will keep things a little safer. All in all, it only cost me a Weekend of ROCKSIM to keep us safer.

 

[David Schwantz]

Hey John, thanks for the tip, but if you read further up you will see that , that is exactly what I do. It did not show a spark. We made new rule that one lead MUST be unplugged when you install the igniter. At least this way you are 15 feet from the blast instead of under it.

 

[OzHybrid]

Hey John, thanks for the tip, but if you read further up you will see that , that is exactly what I do. It did not show a spark. We made new rule that one lead MUST be unplugged when you install the igniter. At least this way you are 15 feet from the blast instead of under it.

A self flashing LED on the output to indicate there is power at the output would give you a good indication the output is live. A flashing LED is easier to see. They are available in various voltages. This one would work with an additinal resistor depending on your voltage.
https://www.altronics.com.au/p/z0889a-red-70-150-mcd-5mm-flashing-led/

 

[jsdemar]

Hey John, thanks for the tip, but if you read further up you will see that , that is exactly what I do. It did not show a spark. We made new rule that one lead MUST be unplugged when you install the igniter. At least this way you are 15 feet from the blast instead of under it.

You might consider putting the leads across your tongue from now on.

 

[rocket_troy]

A self flashing LED on the output to indicate there is power at the output would give you a good indication the output is live. A flashing LED is easier to see. They are available in various voltages. This one would work with an additinal resistor depending on your voltage.
https://www.altronics.com.au/p/z0889a-red-70-150-mcd-5mm-flashing-led/

I would recommend against LEDs for "live" indicators as per my recent experience with the Wilson system. There was enough voltage & current in the channel I was testing when not live to illuminate an LED c/w series resistors.

TP

 

[David Schwantz]

Ok, what might work then. the leads to the pad go into the box via banana plugs. We could make something that plugged into the box and then you plugged the leads to the pad into. This could have a visual light showing armed and ready. But what light would work? Our pads run off 12volt gel cells.

 

[rocket_troy]

Ok, what might work then. the leads to the pad go into the box via banana plugs. We could make something that plugged into the box and then you plugged the leads to the pad into. This could have a visual light showing armed and ready. But what light would work? Our pads run off 12volt gel cells.

Something that's at least 1W ie. something incandescent like an old automotive brake lamp or a small 12V halogen bulb.

TP

 

[David Schwantz]

I can build that