Need recommendations for fiber glass, dual-deploy L2 certification rocket

[tibbe]

After getting my L1 I'd like to go for dual deployment for my L2. Our club has a quite small field so the flight must be either max 2000 feet with single deployment or max 3000 feet with redundant redundant electronic deployment. I'm planning to go for the latter. In addition I'd like to use a fiber glass kit if possible, for the additional durability and just because I haven't tried that before.

I was browsing around Madcow Rocketry's website to find a suitable rocket, but many rockets lack RockSim files, making it hard to predict their altitude. I'd like some recommendations for a simple L2 kit that fits the above requirements.

 

[craigku63]

Tibbe,

I am in the same boat. I just finished my level 1 certification and I just purchased a fiberglass kit from madcow. I purchased the X-celerator I think it has a rocksim file. Although I am not sure what it would sim to on a low power J motor. I will be interesting to see how others respond to you post. I am very new to the forum and will benefit from the info also.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Rocketry Forum mobile app

 

[blackjack2564]

After getting my L1 I'd like to go for dual deployment for my L2.
many rockets lack RockSim files, making it hard to predict their altitude. I'd like some recommendations for a simple L2 kit that fits the above requirements.

Tibbe,

I am in the same boat. Rocketry Forum mobile app

Well guy's, here's my take on your situation:
First it seems you just recently got L-1's. I would enjoy some flying, watch the more successful flier's and talk to those about how they do Dual deploy & just fly high power motors in general.

Next, part of the L-2 journey is "learning" how to get the answers you just asked above.
There will be a L-2 test covering design aspects & basic skills needed to safely design & build your rockets.

You also definitely need to master design in Rocksim/Open Rocket [either] You should take the time & learn how to do your own files & compare to other [supplied] files. More often than not they will differ greatly in weights and added parts. You Must now how to recognize this! Pick wind speeds at various heights. Sim various motors with different thrust profiles.

It's not hard if you start with just a simple Tube-nosecone-3fins to learn.

You're going to do what you want, should you desire to be a serious rocketeer & understand what's the logic behind the fun, some studying is in order.

However if you want the stupid simple answer:

4 in. diameter fiberglass.
length... 6-9ft
weight 10-13lbs ready to fly

Add any J-motor of 750-850 N. [no warp-9's!] 38mm or 54mm

Edit: with these size motor I should change it from any to: No long burns & be sure you have a 5-7 to 1 thrust ratio in calm conditions & 10-1 or more in windy conditions [10-15 mph]

And you will stay under 1800-2300 ft 95% of the time, at low sea level, launch sites. {MCMB...must cover my butt, their is always an exception somewhere...LOL}

Pick your design and flavor....3-4-6 fins.

Let the flood gates open. Everyone has their favorite kit they will recommend, be sure they have some data to show it will fit your needs!!! :smile:

 

[Steve Shannon]

Everything Jim wrote above is exactly right, but I sincerely hope you and every newly certified L1 who wonders what rocket to buy to certify L2 will read over and over, take to heart, and do.
It’s entirely possible for a person to certify L1-L2-L3 in a very short period of time, but the only thing it demonstrates is impatience. You will be a far better rocketeer if you certify to a level and spend some time exploring the many things you can learn at that level before making the move to the next level. Not only that, but chances are that after building a few different models with different features that use the motors you are now certified to use, such as one with a chute release or more traditional dual deployment, short and fat, tall and slender, two stage, cluster, you will discover that you know exactly what rocket you want to build for your L2. Then, do the same thing with your L2 status. Enjoy the journey.


Steve Shannon

 

[tibbe]

You also definitely need to master design in Rocksim/Open Rocket [either] You should take the time & learn how to do your own files & compare to other [supplied] files. More often than not they will differ greatly in weights and added parts. You Must now how to recognize this! Pick wind speeds at various heights. Sim various motors with different thrust profiles.

When kit manufacturers don't include RockSim/OpenRocket files I at least wish they included more specs on the various parts so I could create such a file myself. Buying a kit just to weight/measure the parts and find out you can't fly it at your launch site kinda sucks.

 

[Rex R]

sorry Jim no kit reccomedation here. I will however say that doing a dual deploy for the 1st time as part of a cert attempt is asking for trouble. I will however mention that Madcow is not the only fish in the pond.
Rex
*edit*
the rocket listed in my sig. isn't the same as the current version.

 

[tibbe]

The desire for dual deployment is partly because of the low altitude limit (2000 feet) without dual deployment. I guess I could find a heavy enough rocket that it will stay under it on a J motor. My current single deploy L1 rocket (a LOC-iV) was already touching that limit on an H motor.

 

[DavidMcCann]

They’re not suggesting to cert without DD. They’re suggesting do some L1 DD flights first.


Any rocket that that will fly in a baby J will be just fine on an I600R if you’d like to practice with it.

Id agree with Jim. 4” FG with a 38mm hole

 

[blackjack2564]

I Cannot concur...if I'm buying a 4in glass rocket I want the ability to fly at minimum 54&38...preferably 38-54-75. Now it's a go anywhere, fly low or high. L-2 L-3 Rocket. My opinion and we all know what opinions are worth...LOL

Ok first thing to do if you never built a glass rocket is read the "sticky" at top of this page...High Power..........
https://www.rocketryforum.com/showt...-quot-Stock-quot-3IN-DARKSTAR-CJ-Step-By-Step

Even though I did this several yrs ago & some things have changed, this will give you the "basics" & background to build, understand, buy hardware/parts glue etc. with confidence any fiberglass rocket...with these techniques.

It was indexed so you can go directly to pages needed about anything. Yes it's a long read/book, when finished you will know how a little bit about everything.

Here's my favorite pick for a "do it all" L-2 Wildman 4in. Dual Deploy Vindicator.
Actually is mine: It has flown on these motors to these altitudes:

AT J-315 red 1698ft [2-grain 852 case]
AT J-275 white 2221 ft [2-grain 852 case]
4-grain CTI K-760 C* 6536ft
4-grain CTI K-400 green 4403ft
3-grain CTI J-760 WT 3357ft
6-grain CTI K-590 DT 8852ft
AT K-700 White lightening 8280ft.
Just a few of many, many flights this rockets has.





Any of these will do same flight profiles I mentioned above....PLUS when you want to "hammer" time stick a big 54mm and get over 10,000ft.
You can also build the nose cone for doing dual deploy, with main in the cone itself. Remove payload, stick DD nose cone on fincan and fly with even smaller motors dual deploy.
OR bigger ones to greater heights!!!

Order one with 75mm motor hole & do both L-2 & L-3 go 12-14,000 with baby M's and High teen's to low 20'000's with big M's

All 4in versions.
Wildman
Vindicator
DarkStar
Competitor
Intimidator to mention a few. His site has just been re-done. Can't find it...put in search.

Anyone else's kits that fall in the above sizes will work equally as well. I have built and flown every kit above and by keeping detailed log books of every flight over the years, can tell how high they fly.

 

[DavidMcCann]

I disagree that every bird needs to be built with the largest mount. Especially in this case. I'm not saying don't do it, if thats what he wants. But if his home field is a 3,000 foot waiver, there's no need to get into 54mm hardware, and why bother with buying adaptors and large, more expensive aero packs if it's not going to be used? If some day he gets the chance to goto another field, he can still you know, build another rocket for that. But unless he has distinct plans to go higher, building a rocket with the ability to do so simply adds cost and complexity for no purpose.

 

[Mightyrocketman]

Wildman Super Jart 75 is my favorite rocket right now


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[Homer_S]

I have almost no HPR experience, having failed my first L1 attempt due to forgetting that Chute Release powers off after activation, including a test. Luckily I got it back. My plan for L2 is to build a rocket that I can fly with L1 motors. That allows for fun and learning as well as having the L2 certification be on a flight proven airframe/recovery/electronics system.

Homer

 

[Bat-mite]

When kit manufacturers don't include RockSim/OpenRocket files I at least wish they included more specs on the various parts so I could create such a file myself. Buying a kit just to weight/measure the parts and find out you can't fly it at your launch site kinda sucks.

The kit should list a built weight at least. Add in a couple pounds for your hardware, recovery, etc., then sim it at https://thrustcurve.org/ That will get you in the ballpark. Once you have the kit, weigh each part, and override the weight in RS or OR.

 

[OverTheTop]

I disagree that every bird needs to be built with the largest mount. Especially in this case. I'm not saying don't do it, if thats what he wants.

I agree, and it depends entirely on the flyer. I will say that any rocket I didn't build to accept the larger motors always has me wishing later that I had. That is just my thoughts. Have a think about your attitudes around this and decide

 

[KenRico]

I Cannot concur...if I'm buying a 4in glass rocket I want the ability to fly at minimum 54&38...preferably 38-54-75. Now it's a go anywhere, fly low or high. L-2 L-3 Rocket. My opinion and we all know what opinions are worth...LOL

Ok first thing to do if you never built a glass rocket is read the "sticky" at top of this page...High Power..........
https://www.rocketryforum.com/showt...-quot-Stock-quot-3IN-DARKSTAR-CJ-Step-By-Step

Even though I did this several yrs ago & some things have changed, this will give you the "basics" & background to build, understand, buy hardware/parts glue etc. with confidence any fiberglass rocket...with these techniques.

It was indexed so you can go directly to pages needed about anything. Yes it's a long read/book, when finished you will know how a little bit about everything.

Here's my favorite pick for a "do it all" L-2 Wildman 4in. Dual Deploy Vindicator.
Actually is mine: It has flown on these motors to these altitudes:

AT J-315 red 1698ft [2-grain 852 case]
AT J-275 white 2221 ft [2-grain 852 case]
4-grain CTI K-760 C* 6536ft
4-grain CTI K-400 green 4403ft
3-grain CTI J-760 WT 3357ft
6-grain CTI K-590 DT 8852ft
AT K-700 White lightening 8280ft.
Just a few of many, many flights this rockets has.

View attachment 333080 View attachment 333079



Any of these will do same flight profiles I mentioned above....PLUS when you want to "hammer" time stick a big 54mm and get over 10,000ft.
You can also build the nose cone for doing dual deploy, with main in the cone itself. Remove payload, stick DD nose cone on fincan and fly with even smaller motors dual deploy.
OR bigger ones to greater heights!!!

Order one with 75mm motor hole & do both L-2 & L-3 go 12-14,000 with baby M's and High teen's to low 20'000's with big M's

All 4in versions.
Wildman
Vindicator
DarkStar
Competitor
Intimidator to mention a few. His site has just been re-done. Can't find it...put in search.

Anyone else's kits that fall in the above sizes will work equally as well. I have built and flown every kit above and by keeping detailed log books of every flight over the years, can tell how high they fly.

I did my L2 with the Vindicator with a J350W reload . After a successful certification built a sled and av bay lids for dual deploy .. has worked out great .

Fiberglass bird 3 to 5 inch is a solid bet for L2 as it can take a hit if there is a surprise and they tend to be no paint or earn their stripes after a successful flight. Get something with a payload or upper airframe tube to learn the in and outs of dual deploy and of course CG & CP . If I had to do over would have built all my 3 and 4 inch rockets with Aeropack tailcone retainers and would have built the 4 inch & 5 inch birds as 75mm . Try to stick with something with a '2-piece nosecone' and don't glue the coupler into it.

Most kits do not come with motor retainers, kevlar strap, kevlar harness' nomex or chutes . These purchases can be spaced out after construction is started if it helps the wallet but you will need the strap and the motor retainer to start building as well as an upgraded epoxy like RocketPoxy

Kenny

 

[DavidMcCann]

I agree, and it depends entirely on the flyer. I will say that any rocket I didn't build to accept the larger motors always has me wishing later that I had. That is just my thoughts. Have a think about your attitudes around this and decide

I absolutely agree...and cloned my L1 to put a 38mm mount in it (and technically downscaled it to put a 38mm in it as well, but I digress)

If -I- was limited to 3,000 feet, I wouldn't bother with bigger mounts I was unlikely to use on a frequent basis. None of us is out there flying one rocket. They don't all need to do it all.

 

[ttabbal]

I think if I were going to try L2 with a 3000ft waiver, I'd go big on the rocket and small on the motor. Maybe something like a 6" stubby with big draggy fins on a smallish J?

If you're nervous about DD, there's always the Chute Release. But really, do some L1 DD flights first. It's not difficult, there are just a lot of failure points you need to account for compared to a motor deploy rocket. Just take your time on setup and double check everything. I also like the Quantum altimeter's emergency main feature. If it detects that the drogue didn't work, it fires the main. You might be walking, but it significantly reduces the chances of ballistic recovery. I'm sure there are other altimeters with this feature, Quantum is just the one I've used.

If you do the L1 flights, you can save some money using cardboard/wood rather than fiberglass.

 

[Exactimator]

I like the advice on flying level one for a while. It’ll serve you well. There are dozens of different H motors. Same with I. The differences affect how your rocket will fly. So will your rocket design, calibers of stability, wind, launch rail length. All of these things come together and can either make an awesome flight or big failure. For instance, a light rocket on a windless day can fly beautifully on a mellow or low thrust long burn. Try the same flight in 15 MPH winds and you could end up skywriting. Or let your buddies wave at your rocket as it flies sideways up the flight line at 300 feet. After a bunch of launches, hopefully with different types of motors and in different conditions, you’ll have a feel for how a rocket will behave on a particular day. How long the rail needs to be, how punchy of a motor you should use, what general area your rocket may land in. Or not launch because the conditions will make you lose your rocket. It sounds like you have a small field so if you go to high and drift too far, you’ll end up somewhere you can’t retrieve your rocket. Flying L1 for a while will help you to learn to fly the wind and field so you increase your chances of getting your rocket back. Having said all that, if you put a CTI J335 in a cardboard Madcow 4” AGM33 Pike set-up for dual deploy, you’ll go about 2,900 feet. For fiberglass, if you get a 3” rocket like a Reaper 3 or Frenzy with a CTI J335, it’ll go about 2,600 feet.An X-Celerator with an Aeropack tailcone and a 38mm CTI J410 will go about 1,700 feet. With a 54mm J360 about 2,500 feet Just to give you an idea.Just to give you an idea.ETA: Sorry, for some reason TRF isn't letting me separate the paragraphs. Makes it a little hard to read.

 

[swatkat]

I'm in a similar boat as you.. looking to L2 this coming summer. I'm planning on doing it on the MachOneRocketry Speed Demon. (Just simming on 38mm motors here, but the mount is 54mm or 75mm (you can spec when ordering). Will be testing on I284 at something like 1800 feet, then bump her up one step to the j350W at 2300 feet...here's the .ork.

 

[MaxQ]

.... or max 3000 feet with redundant redundant electronic deployment. I'm planning to go for the latter.

I saw what you did there....LOL

You from the Department of Redundancy Department....?

I did my L2 with DD, and I'm glad I did. (I actually had several DD with I motor flights prior).
Go for it.

 

[Buckeye]

Everything Jim wrote above is exactly right, but I sincerely hope you and every newly certified L1 who wonders what rocket to buy to certify L2 will read over and over, take to heart, and do.
It’s entirely possible for a person to certify L1-L2-L3 in a very short period of time, but the only thing it demonstrates is impatience.

Steve Shannon

I agree with CJ and Steve. I see a lot of posters' sigs touting both their L1 and L2 certification dates within the past 6 months, and now they want to buy stuff for L3. And, they want to do it on the cheap, like L1 and L2 on the same day with same rocket, or certing with a wimpy J350 to barely scratch over the J-impulse line. I don't get it. The certifications themselves don't mean anything to me. I got L1 so I could build bigger stuff, and I got L2 (12 years later) so I could hit 2 miles altitude with confidence. I have no plans for L3 at the moment.

While I'm on my soapbox, I'll mention that the L2 test/demo (maybe L3 also) need some updating to the current era. For example, demonstrated competencies should include choosing a good motor from the thousands of choices available, how to run a flight simulation, how to interpret altimeter data, and adherence to a pre-defined flight plan.

After getting my L1 I'd like to go for dual deployment for my L2. Our club has a quite small field so the flight must be either max 2000 feet with single deployment or max 3000 feet with redundant redundant electronic deployment.

I would look for a new club, personally. 2000-3000 ft is not much room to play in with an L2 under your belt. What does redundant electronic deployment mean, exactly? Two altimeters? I will bet that I have a higher success rate with one altimeter than those who fly with two.

 

[MaxQ]

What does redundant electronic deployment mean, exactly? Two altimeters? I will bet that I have a higher success rate with one altimeter than those who fly with two.

This comes to mind:
https://www.apogeerockets.com/education/downloads/Newsletter322.pdf
That said, if I ever do a Level 3 (and my Tripoli number would indicate I'm in no hurry either) I will probably have dual electronics for recovery back up.
Maybe that is required by TAPs, honestly, I haven't bothered to look.

 

[markkoelsch]

Simply a Wildman Extreme. Fly on a high thrust 38 mm J motor and get no more than 2600-2700 feet. Fly it on a AT J800 and you should do similar.

I like to fly mine on 54mm AT K motors. Specifically the K805 G and K1103x. Both do right about 4000'

I also did my L3 whither mine on an AT M1297 to about 12700'.

A very versatile rocket.


Sent from my iPhone using Rocketry Forum

 

[Crash-n-Burn]

I disagree that every bird needs to be built with the largest mount. Especially in this case. I'm not saying don't do it, if thats what he wants. But if his home field is a 3,000 foot waiver, there's no need to get into 54mm hardware, and why bother with buying adaptors and large, more expensive aero packs if it's not going to be used? If some day he gets the chance to goto another field, he can still you know, build another rocket for that. But unless he has distinct plans to go higher, building a rocket with the ability to do so simply adds cost and complexity for no purpose.

+1. well said. If the OP lives in an area with low flight limits (read: New England) then 54mm is an unnecessary luxury.

 

[Crash-n-Burn]

I like the advice on flying level one for a while. It’ll serve you well. There are dozens of different H motors. Same with I. The differences affect how your rocket will fly. So will your rocket design, calibers of stability, wind, launch rail length. All of these things come together and can either make an awesome flight or big failure. For instance, a light rocket on a windless day can fly beautifully on a mellow or low thrust long burn. Try the same flight in 15 MPH winds and you could end up skywriting. Or let your buddies wave at your rocket as it flies sideways up the flight line at 300 feet. After a bunch of launches, hopefully with different types of motors and in different conditions, you’ll have a feel for how a rocket will behave on a particular day. How long the rail needs to be, how punchy of a motor you should use, what general area your rocket may land in. Or not launch because the conditions will make you lose your rocket. It sounds like you have a small field so if you go to high and drift too far, you’ll end up somewhere you can’t retrieve your rocket. Flying L1 for a while will help you to learn to fly the wind and field so you increase your chances of getting your rocket back. Having said all that, if you put a CTI J335 in a cardboard Madcow 4” AGM33 Pike set-up for dual deploy, you’ll go about 2,900 feet. For fiberglass, if you get a 3” rocket like a Reaper 3 or Frenzy with a CTI J335, it’ll go about 2,600 feet.An X-Celerator with an Aeropack tailcone and a 38mm CTI J410 will go about 1,700 feet. With a 54mm J360 about 2,500 feet Just to give you an idea.Just to give you an idea.ETA: Sorry, for some reason TRF isn't letting me separate the paragraphs. Makes it a little hard to read.

Respectfully, these things don't need to be learned through painful experiences. The OP is the only one that can say whether he/she is comfortable in their knowledge (and discipline) to execute succesful L2 flights. I got my L2 on a HyperLOC 835 Ksomething. It was my second dual deploy flight. The vast majority of my experience comes through witness of the experience of others, including the fine folks on TRF.

 

[Exactimator]

Respectfully, these things don't need to be learned through painful experiences.

I never said they did.

 

[OverTheTop]

It is a very individual thing. I got my L2 with my first ever DD flight. I also tend to try to not just get across the line with small motors so my certs have been I, K, N motors. That's just what I do. Somebody else does not have to do it that way, as long as the rules are followed. That's what they are there for.

 

[fyrwrxz]

Okay- Everybody (Including my buddies in San Diego) has chimed in with great advice and I can agree with most all perspectives and view points. Without having a simulation of your rocket, use dims, motor tube size, weight (mass-all up with kitchen sink) and motor, play around with thrustcurve.com and get a feel for what happens. John Coker is (and has been) a wizard with specialty videos and updating this handy quick look for rocket performance. Plug in answers to the questions and away you go. You can even keep a log of the rest of your fleet. Take some time and play around in L1 territory-it's cheep and easy fun. Some of us never leave! Straight smoke and good chutes!

 

[ChrisAttebery]

If I was flying at a field with a 3k waiver and wanted an L2 rocket I'd be looking at an LOC Warlock(38mm) or DoorKnob(54mm). You can fly them on I-K motors and they have a presence that a smaller rocket just can't match. You can always add an altimeter bay in the nose cone if you want.

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?67422-LOC-DoorKnob-HED-DD-build

 

[Garrace]

I just want to give a quick reply on the rocksim issue. If you do a google search for rocksim file for any of the Madcow kits you can usually find a file or email Mike at Madcow and he is very good at sending a link. All files need to be fine tuned with actual mass and flight data when you have it but will get you in the ball park. I got my L1 with a Tomach and L2 with AGM 58 and currently working on L3 project. As you can probably tell by my join dates I did this in a pretty short period of time although I have made a lot of flights so I am one of those people they are complaining about but at my age I don't get to concerned about. Lol. The AGM 58 worked well for me because I flew it on a I500T to practice for my L2 and then on J425 for L2 and that still keeps you under your waiver. It is much more impressive on J570 and K535 but those are above 3000'. There is a lot of good information on this forum but also a fair amount of criticism so take advantage of the useful and disregard the rest.