# NARAM-51 Manufacturer's Forum

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#### Initiator001

##### Well-Known Member
I thought I'd start a new thread on this subject rather than place it within the general NARAM-51 thread.

The Manufacturer's Forum was held the Tuesday night of NARAM. The spectator turnout was low.

AeroTech President Gary Rosenfield talked about the new D3 reloads being developed for the RMS-18/20. These reloads would be available in -4, -7 and plugged versions. These reloads would be sold in a three-pack like the other 18mm 'D' reloads. These motors have not yet received NAR S&T testing and certification as they are undergoing some 'tweeks' before being submitted for testing. A prototype D3 reload motor was static fired on the NARAM Sport Range Sunday afternoon.

The other product piece of news was the public display of a new, molded case for the E15 and E30 single-use motors. These motors will use the same molded forward bulkhead as the F32 single use motors and have a built-in thrust ring and cut-outs for use with motor hooks. Rosenfield stated that there was still more testing to be done to maximize the performance of the motors in this new casing.

#### MarkII

##### Well-Known Member
The Manufacturer's Forum was held the Tuesday night of NARAM. The spectator turnout was low....
I would have loved to have attended it, but I could only afford to come down just for the weekend. It was a small miracle that I was able to come at all.

Interesting developments coming out of Aerotech. That D3 reload sounds interesting - a third reload for the 18/20 motor.

I just noticed that Aerotech has done an extensive cosmetic overhaul of their website, substantially freshening up the look.

MarkII

#### Initiator001

##### Well-Known Member
Okay, next, the company many have been waiting for any updated information.

Quest Aerospace.

President Bill Stine started his presentation by discussing the status of the E12 & F12 large black powder motors (Stine did refer to the motors as the E12 & F12). He said that the last quarter of 2008, Quest had cut back on development of these motors as a result of the weakened economy. However, the beginning of 2009 saw a much improved financial situation for Quest so these motors went back on the development program. This delay cost some time. Currently, Quest is waiting for the U.S. Department of Transportation (D.O.T.) to issue what are known as "EX" numbers which will allow the company to ship the motors, first to NAR S&T so they can undergo certification prior to being available for sale. Stine stated that there were some new policies/regulations now involved in the issuing of EX numbers which was delaying the process. In addition, increased security at the shipping ports by U.S. Customs and the Coast Guard due to inspection requirements was creating additional delays. Until all of this is resolved, there could be no firm date when these motors would be available.

Stine then spoke about new kits. The Magnum Sport Loader, Striker AGM & Raptor kits are now available. Another new kit which was displayed at NARAM-51 (and available for sale at the event) was the Future Launch Vehicle (FLV). This Aries V/Delta IV-ish model featured color pre-printed body wraps which use spray-adhesive for attachment. The model, also, featured three simulated strap-on boosters. Retail price is $19.99. As readers of this forum are aware, Quest is working on a model of the Max Launch Abort System (MLAS) which was recently flown. A prototype of the model was displayed. The actual model is still undergoing development but will feature a foam nose cone to save weight and is designed to fly on 18mm motors. Expected SRP of the model will be$28.99.

Stine spoke of the Q2G2 igniters, the hiring of Shrox, and the need to support rocketry manufacturers and vendors.

#### Initiator001

##### Well-Known Member
I would have loved to have attended it, but I could only afford to come down just for the weekend. It was a small miracle that I was able to come at all.

MarkII
Since many NARAM participants cannot attend the entire week-long event, I hope the NARAM-52 staff will schedule the Manufacturer's Forum for Saturday night so the maximum number of people can attend. Under my plan, Sunday would feature a manufacturer's flying demo as this would allow NARAM competitors to attend and not conflict with the competition flying.

I sent off an e-mail to the NARAM-52 CD recommending this course of action. I'm waiting to see what happens.

##### Well-Known Member
Since many NARAM participants cannot attend the entire week-long event, I hope the NARAM-52 staff will schedule the Manufacturer's Forum for Saturday night so the maximum number of people can attend. Under my plan, Sunday would feature a manufacturer's flying demo as this would allow NARAM competitors to attend and not conflict with the competition flying.

I sent off an e-mail to the NARAM-52 CD recommending this course of action. I'm waiting to see what happens.
Well, that won't help those of us who get there Sunday Night :cyclops:

#### Rocketcrab

##### Well-Known Member
Well, that won't help those of us who get there Sunday Night :cyclops:
There's always one in every crowd........

#### Pat_B

##### Well-Known Member
I'm curious how many NARAM participants stay less than the full week. I think it's probably the majority. I got there on Thurs to be ready for Friday evening events for the FAI flyoffs, and by the time Monday comes around it's already been 5 days at the site.

#### chanstevens

##### Well-Known Member
I'm curious how many NARAM participants stay less than the full week. I think it's probably the majority. I got there on Thurs to be ready for Friday evening events for the FAI flyoffs, and by the time Monday comes around it's already been 5 days at the site.
I've only got data from N-47, but was told at the time it was pretty typical. Virtually ALL flyers participating in the competition stay through Friday, most checking out Saturday AM so they can attend the Friday night banquet. The second largest demographic are weekend sport flyers who take off Sunday night/Monday AM.

Sorry Pat, but the majority of NARAM attendees DO stay the full week. Even in the odd numbered years when FAI draws additional participants, that FAI weekend "bump" is really not a big number compared to the 100+ that are there flying in the competition Monday through Friday.

Now most of the vendors will tell you the money flows freely over the weekend, but dries to a trickle during the week. Speaking from experience, that's 'cause I tend to empty my wallet over leisure time Sat/Sun. Come Monday, it's game on and my concentration is on the contests, not on hitting vendor row.

#### kandsrockets

##### Well-Known Member
Well, that won't help those of us who get there Sunday Night :cyclops:
I guess you need to get there a day earlier...

#### jflis

##### Well-Known Member
I was so bummed that I missed the vendor forum... I was out cold fighting a fever... ick

##### Well-Known Member
I guess you need to get there a day earlier...
I guess I need a job with more vacation time

#### Peartree

##### Cyborg Rocketeer
Staff member
Global Mod
I've only got data from N-47, but was told at the time it was pretty typical. Virtually ALL flyers participating in the competition stay through Friday, most checking out Saturday AM so they can attend the Friday night banquet. The second largest demographic are weekend sport flyers who take off Sunday night/Monday AM.

Sorry Pat, but the majority of NARAM attendees DO stay the full week. Even in the odd numbered years when FAI draws additional participants, that FAI weekend "bump" is really not a big number compared to the 100+ that are there flying in the competition Monday through Friday.

Now most of the vendors will tell you the money flows freely over the weekend, but dries to a trickle during the week. Speaking from experience, that's 'cause I tend to empty my wallet over leisure time Sat/Sun. Come Monday, it's game on and my concentration is on the contests, not on hitting vendor row.
Chan, precisely that attitude and watching your intensity (and others) at regionals is why I have little interest in competition flying at NARAM. I have hobbies and go on vacation to rest and de-stress not particiapte in activities that ADD stress. Of course, there's also the investment in time and money that is required to be competitive. I'm sorry, it may be great for a lot of you, but I'm afraid for me, competition would ruin the fun I have flying rockets.

#### MarkII

##### Well-Known Member
As I understand it, the challenge of competition is the hobby for those who compete regularly, and the stress is self-imposed (and can be self-regulated). It can look like hell on the surface, but I am told that the rewards are great, even if you don't win anything.

Why didn't I stay for the whole week? Lack of money, man, lack of money. It was a bit of a stretch for me to attend for the two days that I was there. I don't need a job that gives me more vacation time - I have all the vacation time that I could ever want. It's the job that I need.

MarkII

#### chanstevens

##### Well-Known Member
Chan, precisely that attitude and watching your intensity (and others) at regionals is why I have little interest in competition flying at NARAM. I have hobbies and go on vacation to rest and de-stress not particiapte in activities that ADD stress. Of course, there's also the investment in time and money that is required to be competitive. I'm sorry, it may be great for a lot of you, but I'm afraid for me, competition would ruin the fun I have flying rockets.
Yikes! I hope any intensity I or others may exhibit during rocket contests doesn't come across as a sign that I/we aren't having fun. For me, at least, winning or at least doing well is more fun than losing or doing poorly, but either way, I fly in rocket contests purely for the fun. I'd originally gotten into it for the prizes and the babes/groupies, but sadly am not big-time enough to have run into any of that yet. The other angle to it, for me, is that in building/flying sport models, I rarely encounter something that forces me to learn or grow. Each year in competition, I set goals for myself to learn at least 2-3 new skills or techniques. I'm not saying I've learned all there is to learn in sport flying, just that when I look at the offerings in the manufacturer's forums this year, for example, there was nothing there that would challenge my skills (and the most interesting offering to me was the D3, for competition use).

You've got the right philosophy--no one should be paying/traveling to stress out--but if rocketry meets are stressful, you're either wired differently or not managing expectations quite right. NARAM is certainly the peak in terms of intensity, but at regionals and especially at locals or opens, the atmosphere is great and it's all about making sure your flights get qualified and you score some ribbons/trophies.

#### rokitflite

##### Well-Known Member
I would have to say my teammate is pretty laid back about competition flying. I push for a good finish on my models which is the most stress I put MYself under (I do that with my sport models too). We are a relatively low stress team and did rather well given our approach this contest year. Chan did not seem too stressed this year... He is usually seen slapping children who ask for his autograph *Mr Stevens, could you sign my wocket? --SLAP!!!---*... But not this year.

#### Bravo52

##### Well-Known Member
Granted the numbers are small but what you find in most "hobby" competitions is the casual participate (weekend sport fliers) who participate in NARAM may eventually gravitate over to the competition range. Some may do it the first year, some after 4 years D). But eventually, you catch the bug and have to compete. I think rarely will you find the individual that decides one Saturday morning that they will just show up to NARAM and compete at the national level with little or no exposure at all......

Intensity.......well I got to watch this first hand as Chan sat in front of the closed check-in desk with his forearms on his knees and head bowed after they said no to the second flight........

This was right after his Fantasy Scale rocket of Thunderbird 3 core sampled after screaming in to the dirt from 700 feet going just under Mach and vaporizing into a million pieces that were scooped up in to a pile that would fit in a child's hand and then glued back together with what must have been a gallon of super-glue with seams the size of the Grand Canyon and parts that look like they were attached by caulk.........

Oh, was that too graphic? Sorry... But I did hear; "but we checked in the motors"..........

##### Well-Known Member
Granted the numbers are small but what you find in most "hobby" competitions is the casual participate (weekend sport fliers) who participate in NARAM may eventually gravitate over to the competition range. Some may do it the first year, some after 4 years D). But eventually, you catch the bug and have to compete.
I'm the exception to the rule. I've been to every NARAM since 33, flown rockets at all of them and have never competed at NARAM nor flown a rocket of my own in competition nationally. I proxy flew one for someone once at NARAM and I'll admit to flying in a couple of competitions our club has held but only to show support because I'm the club president. I have friends who compete and I enjoy watching them but I have no desire to do so myself.

#### georgegassaway

Contest flying is what you make of it yourself.

Some do it as a personal challenge only, to see what they can do, and if they do not get a great score but their model flies OK, that is good enough for them. Or, once they get into it, they learn more about it, improve, and over time do become capable of winning some places without going into it all-out 100%.

Other fly more goal-oriented, where the objective is to try to win. Sometimes they are trying harder than others.

And even for the same person, it can vary depending on the event being flown. One can get a lot more excited about hitting a thermal in a duration event than flying a simple event like say B altitude. EXCEPT, that when Chad Ring having totally blown his first B Altitude flight (made a big prepping error), absolutely NAILED his second flight, you could hear how well his piston worked and he KNEW it flew well, so he got excited on how his relatively simple B6-6 powered model flew (and it came in second place, just a bit behind Trip Barber who managed to have the only stage A3-4 to staged A3-4 to fly straight and well).

I myself was not looking for a good result in B altitude and indeed that did not happen, I was pretty disappointed when my 1/8A (Micro Maxx) Helicopter model failed to deploy, BOTH times, when it was a great model and was capable of placing high if it worked once and surely would have won if it had deployed both flights (the winning score in Team division was pretty wimpy at 29 seconds, and my model was capable of about 30 or more per flight, even without the special launch pad). So, at any rate, I was personally a lot more invested in the Copter than the Altitude bird, since copter is one of my best events and Altitude is not.

The more one is going for a national championship, or is in the running at the top places at the national championship, the more serious they are about it, for pretty obvious reasons. That is what Chan Stevens was doing, when he came so darned close to clawing his way into second place nationally, which would have occurred if hed gotten a qualified flight from his THunderbird scale model. In the case of my team (Southern Neutron), this was an off year, so we did not fly all of the events, and flew a few at half throttle. Copter was one of the full throttle events, so that hurt when that on failed both times. But since we were not trying to win a championship this year, it did not hurt like it would have in the big picture for overall national points (as Chan felt when his Thunderbird DQed). It only hurt for throwing away a great chance to place high or win in one of my best and favorite events, when the goals for the week was to try to win some events. And that was the one event I had actually tested the most for and unofficially broken the record in back in March.

Anybody who would fault Chan for being intense about that, you must not like seeing the top guys in your favorite sporting event being intense when it is championship time. I missed it due to NARAM, but as I understand it, Tiger Woods was upset with himself on how the PGA Championship ended up. That does not mean then that people cannot go out and enjoy competing at golf though, if that is their chosen sport/hobby.

- George Gassaway

#### foose4string

##### Well-Known Member
I like George's analogy and can agree with that logic for the most part...however, most pro sports participants have a large paycheck riding on how well they do. However, I'm sure it didn't start out that way for most of them.

I spent a fair amount of time hanging out on the competition field during NARAM 51. I don't necessarily agree with the extremes that some will go to in order to win a competition. I think some competitors would benefit by going back to the basics of sport flying. I saw way too many unstable or unrecoverable(basically DQ'ed) flights by competitors trying to push the envelope. I know that's the point of competition, but sometimes slow and steady wins the race. I saw a rather *ahem* interesting launch pad...all in the name achieving an extra 10-15 foot of altitude. It was obviously within the rules, but it sure didn't look very practical or safe.

One thing I will say is, all of those competitors truly looked like they were having a good time, are friendly, and in general, have a pretty good attitude when things don't go right. Why anyone would put forth the money and effort that the NAR competitors do if it wasn't fun? I enjoyed watching the competitions. And while I don't have a strong desire to compete, I understand why others do.

#### JRThro

TRF Supporter
I'm the exception to the rule. I've been to every NARAM since 33, flown rockets at all of them and have never competed at NARAM nor flown a rocket of my own in competition nationally. I proxy flew one for someone once at NARAM and I'll admit to flying in a couple of competitions our club has held but only to show support because I'm the club president. I have friends who compete and I enjoy watching them but I have no desire to do so myself.
Bill, do you mean to say that club presidents have to participate in club-sponsored competitions?

What have I gotten myself into?? :shock: :y: :jaw:

##### Well-Known Member
Bill, do you mean to say that club presidents have to participate in club-sponsored competitions?

What have I gotten myself into?? :shock: :y: :jaw:
Wait until you tell them you don't want to run for president again and they elect you anyway.

#### Peartree

##### Cyborg Rocketeer
Staff member
Global Mod
I hope that no one misunderstands me. I like Chan (and many others that I have come to know who compete) and I have a great respect for him and all the rest of those who find this enjoyable. If you enjoy being a serious competitor (and its obvious that you do) I have no issue with that whatsoever.

To have fun, once again, is why we have hobbies.

In Columbus I watched Chan chase off into the woods and return, literally, hours later after chasing a D-egglofter for well over a mile (and maybe more), sweaty, hot, tired and beaming victoriously as he had set a new NAR duration record. He was obvious having a TON of fun and a GREAT day. Likewise, I knew that if it was me it would not have been fun nor would it have been a good day because I would never have had the determination or patience to chase the stupid thing that far or for that long and would have been hacked off at losing it. In the small field in Johnstown everyone knew that few of the duration rockets would be returned and they were fine with that. I wouldn't have been. I enjoy the return more than losing the rocket and comforting myself in getting a good time.

We're all different. If you're built to enjoy competition then that's how you're built and I wish you the best and hope you have a good time.

Me? I'm competitive and I hate to lose. If I chose to compete on that level I would spend too much time and too much money, likely strain the relationship with my wife(and most certainly my employer), see less of my children or be more irritable with them and in many other ways drive myself to the point of no longer enjoying myself.

I don't know you but I have, over time, come to know myself. While I am happy to compete locally so the local club can register enough members to have an official "regional" competition and perhaps bring home a medallion or, even better, a new rocket kit, I have no desire to go beyond that at this time. After my children are grown, then, perhaps I will feel differently.

#### jbuscaglia

##### Rusty-eyed Missile Man
I'm the exception to the rule. I've been to every NARAM since 33, flown rockets at all of them and have never competed at NARAM nor flown a rocket of my own in competition nationally. I proxy flew one for someone once at NARAM and I'll admit to flying in a couple of competitions our club has held but only to show support because I'm the club president. I have friends who compete and I enjoy watching them but I have no desire to do so myself.
I appreciate all the "watching" you did for me this year.

#### JRThro

TRF Supporter
... likely strain the relationship with my wife (and most certainly my employer), see less of my l feel differently.
Now that's pretty funny!

Also? I have never been in a rocketry competition, but I probably will try it at some point before NARAM-52.

Wait until you tell them you don't want to run for president again and they elect you anyway.
Aw, man!

#### jj94

##### Well-Known Member
I'm kind of late on this, but what is the D3 using for propellant? That looks like clean BP.

##### Well-Known Member
I appreciate all the "watching" you did for me this year.
Glad to do it but I did have to convince myself I was chasing poorly painted sport models to justify spending so much time on the competition range.

#### GuyNoir

##### Well-Known Member
Wait until you tell them you don't want to run for president again and they elect you anyway.

Well that'll teach you not to miss the meetings. . .

##### Well-Known Member
Well that'll teach you not to miss the meetings. . .
I haven't missed one in years. Evidently that's their reason for electing me president. Either that or it's because I have the truck with the trailer hitch that pulls our trailer. So to get out of this job I'm going to have to miss a lot of meetings and buy someone a truck.

Seriously, this year it's been pretty good. Typically I'll send out email to everyone asking for an idea or opinion then spend the next couple of days wondering if my email is working. Since we decided to do NARCON I've been getting rapid responses.

#### Initiator001

##### Well-Known Member
I'm kind of late on this, but what is the D3 using for propellant? That looks like clean BP.
It's an APCP motor.