My clearcut is orange peeled, advice?

The Rocketry Forum

Help Support The Rocketry Forum:

MikeyDSlagle

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
2,541
Reaction score
511
Hey all,
I typically use rattle can Duplicolor enamel paints and then justsand and Polish for a deep shine. Well I wanted to try Duplicolor Paint Shop lacquer through my HVLP. I am reading it requires a clear coat. It has always been hit or miss for me spraying rattle can clears, some works good and some orange peels on me. I spayed a few coats lacquer clear and it orange peeled on me. It was so bad it had to go all the way to the color coat. I stayed the clear when the color coat was still wet. Could that have done it? This stuff says no recoat window. I didn't change the settings on my gun between steps and the color went down flat.

Any advice on applying the clear?
Or is the clear even necessary?
Can I polish it just like I do enamels?

Wha I did:
Primer then sanded over and over, 400 grit
Shot 3 coats of Jet Black about 10 minutes between coats and then let dry an hour
Shot 3 coats of Emerald Green Metallic ,10 minutes between
Then 3 coats of Clear, one light coat and two wetter coats

And orange peel

Right now it is setting with 3 coats of the Emerald green and waiting for advice from the good folks here.

Thanks folks.
Mikey D
 

mpitfield

Moderator
Staff member
TRF Lifetime Supporter
Global Mod
Joined
Jul 7, 2013
Messages
4,904
Reaction score
433
Location
Toronto, Ontario
The Dupli-color paint shop system is a 1-2-3 system and requires clear. Orange peel can be caused by many different reasons ranging from spray conditions, technique or your set-up, but the fix is the same, block sand and or polish until it is smooth and hope you don't cut into the clear. If you cut into the clear then you will have to spray again, so figuring out where you went wrong is important.

You may as well take this to go over everything and see if you can improve. What is your HVLP setup, gun tip size, what is the CFM range your gun requires, working pressure at your gun, spray pattern, what CFM can your air system maintain, temp humidity, spray technique, etc. I would lay it all out there, even if it is unrelated to resolving your issue, someone may spot something that could save you from a problem down the road or just give you better results.
 

Nathan

TRF Supporter
Joined
Apr 20, 2012
Messages
2,163
Reaction score
512
mpitfield is correct, lots of things can cause orange peel, particularly your HVLP gun setup and humidity. I've sprayed a lot of Duplicolor lacquer and the only time I've had orange peel problems was when spraying when it was too humid.

If you see your clear coat getting some orange peel then I would suggest spraying one extra coat because your going to be doing a lot of sanding to get it smooth and you really want to avoid sanding all the way through to the color coat.
 

mkadams001

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 11, 2009
Messages
879
Reaction score
1
That light coat may have done you in. Your clear may be too thick and/or wrong temp reducer. The clear is drying before it can flow. The light coat may have started to dry before it flowed and the remains coats amplified the effect.
 

rms

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 3, 2009
Messages
353
Reaction score
1
Duplicator paint shop lacquer that is "old school" and going to require cut and polish for a really great finish. That is the way of lacquer. I have sprayed it automotively years ago and cut and buff was expected. Gave the paint shop system a try in the last couple years and unfortunately I experienced your same results. Not for everyone but I use the newer catalysed "automotive systems" with excellent results. I do have an automotive paint experience from the past but tried duplicolor lacquer system for an easier home painting experience but sadly found the results disappointing. But have had great results with a hybrid of lacquer under coats with catalysed clear coat.
Greg
 

MikeyDSlagle

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
2,541
Reaction score
511
Okay, thanks guys. As for tip size and all that, I really don't know. It is an inexpensive gun from Lowes. My first time using it too. I have a smaller gravity feed I have had better luck with and will be using that this go 'round.
I will dig around and see what I can find about the guns, my manuals have disappeared. My compressor is fairly large but I will have to look at the specs on it too. The tank has no problem holding the required pressure though.
Humidity is the likely culprit, I am in Louisiana after all. Or the light coat, or the fact I put the clear on top of a wet color. Can't do much for the humidity.

Should I sand the color coat before I put down the clear? Don't have the can with me and I don't remember what it says.
 
Last edited:

tomsteve

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 24, 2014
Messages
914
Reaction score
278
laquers don't require sanding between coats and if a metallic is sanded it will mess up the metallic as youd be sanding on the flake.
im not sure what your air regulation is like, but PSI should be set with the trigger pulled.
even with the gun set up right and right technique while spraying,some guns don't atomize good enough to lay down clear without OP. i have a devilbiss starting line that the only way i could come close to getting no OP was to over reduce the clear.
my devilbiss copper tekna lays clears like glass.
 

tomsteve

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 24, 2014
Messages
914
Reaction score
278
p.s.
don't get discouraged. getting paint to lay nice out of a gun is a skill that requires practice.
 

Woody's Workshop

Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
Joined
Aug 3, 2011
Messages
4,411
Reaction score
256
Location
Reed City, Michigan (Lower)
Your mistake is in your first coat of clear.
You dry sprayed it.
Even though you put 2 wet coats over it, lacquer shrinks to it's base.
Lacquer is designed to buffed.
Without a constant maintenance of waxing, you will need to re-buff for luster.
Spray mist should be 90 degrees with the length of your paint stoke.
If you are right handed, put your eyes close to what you are painting so you can see how wet it goes on.
With lacquer, running isn't a problem if properly mixed. Watch it go on wet like a layer.
But so wet you see waves as the air pressure pushes on the wet paint.
Lacquer is a completely different animal from enamel.
BC/CC's are even different yet.
So break out your 1200 wet sandpaper and sand it smooth and buff till your grip aches.
Then use some finishing polish and then a good coat of wax. (Some prefer floor wax, not I).
 

MikeyDSlagle

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
2,541
Reaction score
511
laquers don't require sanding between coats and if a metallic is sanded it will mess up the metallic as youd be sanding on the flake.
im not sure what your air regulation is like, but PSI should be set with the trigger pulled.
even with the gun set up right and right technique while spraying,some guns don't atomize good enough to lay down clear without OP. i have a devilbiss starting line that the only way i could come close to getting no OP was to over reduce the clear.
my devilbiss copper tekna lays clears like glass.
My PSI is set right at the gun with the trigger pressed, to 25~30. I have a short hose, a desiccant dryer, then regulator then the gun.
So no sanding the metallic, got it. I've never had much patience but since I became a father I have learned some patience.


Your mistake is in your first coat of clear.
You dry sprayed it.
Even though you put 2 wet coats over it, lacquer shrinks to it's base.
Lacquer is designed to buffed.
Without a constant maintenance of waxing, you will need to re-buff for luster.
Spray mist should be 90 degrees with the length of your paint stoke.
If you are right handed, put your eyes close to what you are painting so you can see how wet it goes on.
With lacquer, running isn't a problem if properly mixed. Watch it go on wet like a layer.
But so wet you see waves as the air pressure pushes on the wet paint.
Lacquer is a completely different animal from enamel.
BC/CC's are even different yet.
So break out your 1200 wet sandpaper and sand it smooth and buff till your grip aches.
Then use some finishing polish and then a good coat of wax. (Some prefer floor wax, not I).
From this, I was no where near wet enough with my clear. My color coat went on great. Hopefully I can get the clear on this afternoon. I have the sandpaper and various polishes. This is a Tyrannosaur, so that step will likely take a few days. I think I have Meguire's wax to use. Can says with 30 days before wax.

Lots of good info. Thanks folks
 

tomsteve

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 24, 2014
Messages
914
Reaction score
278
My PSI is set right at the gun with the trigger pressed, to 25~30. I have a short hose, a desiccant dryer, then regulator then the gun.
So no sanding the metallic, got it. I've never had much patience but since I became a father I have learned some patience.
ok, on the fluid knob, which i assume your gun has one? should be a knob that adjusts how far in you can pull the trigger. where i set mine: turn it out so the trigger bottoms out. with trigger pulled( no paint in gun) i start turning the knob in until it started moving the trigger. then turn in 1 full turn more.
something else when it comes to spraying rockets is getting the fan pattern right. iffen ya hang some paper up on a wall and hold the gun the distance youd be spraying at, you can set the fan pattern. you can also see exactly how the gun is laying the paint out of the gun. heres a video that shows the effects and different factors of how the fan pattern occurs:
[video=youtube;zDDk-pJWrJ0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDDk-pJWrJ0[/video]
patience- yeah itsa must. IF you see it isn't going right, stop. the great thing with lacquers is the next coat melts into the previous coat. that's why no recoat window and no sanding required between coats.
 

Nathan

TRF Supporter
Joined
Apr 20, 2012
Messages
2,163
Reaction score
512
. . . Your clear may be too thick and/or wrong temp reducer. . .
Reducer is used with eurethane, lacquer thinner is used with lacquer. Thinning it a little might help prevent orange peel but Duplicolor Paint Shop lacquer comes ready to spray and supposedly required no thinning.
 

Woody's Workshop

Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
Joined
Aug 3, 2011
Messages
4,411
Reaction score
256
Location
Reed City, Michigan (Lower)
Reducer is used with eurethane, lacquer thinner is used with lacquer. Thinning it a little might help prevent orange peel but Duplicolor Paint Shop lacquer comes ready to spray and supposedly required no thinning.
I could go into a 2 hour lecture on how thinning is used to do different things.
But, a couple for instances: Un-thinned lacquer run through at low pressure and round pattern will yield what is called Cob Webbing. Basically you spray a string.
Thinned 90% is used when fading 2 colors together without a definite color change edge.
Painting a round object like a rocket is much like painting pipe.
One will want to narrow the fan to a more round pattern to reduce over spray and wasted paint.
With this, one will want to screw in the fluid control to reduce the amount put through the nozel.
One will also want to do a test piece to adjust your distance from the painted object.
Regardless of what is written on a can, an experienced painter will be able tell by eye if paint needs thinned, and how much for the application.
This is something that can be instructed, but is mastered by experience only.
At the end of the season, I would go to my local auto store where they would cut off the paint code number and throw outdated factory 1/2 pints away.
I would take home the cans. Some I used to practice, others I mixed to paint something and others I used in custom paint jobs.
If you have a local auto paint supplier, check with them if they do something similiar.
More than likely, it won't be lacquer these days, it will be Base Coat/Clear Coat colors.
 
Last edited:

MikeyDSlagle

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
2,541
Reaction score
511
Very informative video, thanks. I always spray my paint onto a surface to test it, but I honestly wasn't sure what I was looking for.

I had a few bad spots I sanded and had to repaint. I tried to narrow my spread and use a more circular pattern with the black for my nose cone. Couldn't get it to act right. I couldn't really get my passes just right either. I had much better luck with a wider fine, I'll just have to settle with a bit of wasted paint. My gun kept acting funny too. I don't know if my regulator got damaged or my dryer is spent/clogged up (disposable - am going see about opening it and reloading it). Pressure would hold and then drop suddenly, then climb back up. Same setup as last week and didn't have those issues. And admittedly, this was trying my patience. :dark:

I have to tape off the BT to paint the talon fins black, I forgot all about that, so the color has to sit for a bit before I put the tape on. Don't need that disaster again. LOL

I have to get me some more gloves and see if I can find a better regulator - that I can afford. Then I'll give it another shot.

Thanks for the advice guys. I'll give it another go when I get time and post the results.
 

tomsteve

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 24, 2014
Messages
914
Reaction score
278
a pressure change could be a few things. did ya notice the pressure change at the gage at the gun?
any chance ya noticed if the compressor was running when ya had the pressure change? is there a regulator at the compressor? if so, you could use that to regulate the psi and ditch the one at the gun for now. personally I like the reg at the gun, but I know some painters-real painters, not some dude like me that just makes painting look good :) - don't like regs or filters at the gun so they keep those at the compressor.
another thing that could cause the psi change is dirt in the air hose. do you use the air hose for a lot of other things? if so, it could have had a lot of crap in it which pluggered up the filter. plus, I think ya said ya live in a humid climate? compressors can-welp-compress a lot of water out of the air and plug up them filters quick.actually, them lil filters that go at the gun don't last long anyways.

one more thing- is there a little removable strainer in the cup? if so, toss it. they can cause problems.

for ***** and giggles, heres one of the rides I painted. from the bodyline down just about all the way around the car was new sheetmetal, and can ya believe there aint anyone that produces aftermarket body parts for something like this!?!?!? it was real fun forming the metal at the back lower corners. I have an idea what its like to make custom motorcycle tanks.:)10551082_10204367825180429_2829396688618060946_n.jpg10562994_10204367825140428_7366035857563107668_n.jpg
 

MikeyDSlagle

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
2,541
Reaction score
511
a pressure change could be a few things. did ya notice the pressure change at the gage at the gun?
any chance ya noticed if the compressor was running when ya had the pressure change? is there a regulator at the compressor? if so, you could use that to regulate the psi and ditch the one at the gun for now. personally I like the reg at the gun, but I know some painters-real painters, not some dude like me that just makes painting look good :) - don't like regs or filters at the gun so they keep those at the compressor.
another thing that could cause the psi change is dirt in the air hose. do you use the air hose for a lot of other things? if so, it could have had a lot of crap in it which pluggered up the filter. plus, I think ya said ya live in a humid climate? compressors can-welp-compress a lot of water out of the air and plug up them filters quick.actually, them lil filters that go at the gun don't last long anyways.
Pressure change was at the gun, compressor wasn't running. I have a regulator and filter at the tank as well, set at 75 psi; filter was clean and I drained it first thing. I've tried using just the one at the tank but the long hose causes higher pressure for an instant when I start spraying, just don't like doing it that way, but I may go back to it now that I know a little more about what I am doing.
Hose is brand spanking new, used maybe five times and three of those were painting.
Yes the filters/dryers don't last long at all. I get one or two uses before they are done.
And yes, Louisiana is humid, very humid. Spring is our nice weather which is why I am spraying now. Before long we will be having days of 90 degrees with heat index of 112 - that's how humid, and that's not exaggerating.

one more thing- is there a little removable strainer in the cup? if so, toss it. they can cause problems.
What cup?

for ***** and giggles, heres one of the rides I painted. from the bodyline down just about all the way around the car was new sheetmetal, and can ya believe there aint anyone that produces aftermarket body parts for something like this!?!?!? it was real fun forming the metal at the back lower corners. I have an idea what its like to make custom motorcycle tanks.:)View attachment 319331View attachment 319332
What the heck is that? A Gremlin, or a Pacer? That is cool.
 

tomsteve

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 24, 2014
Messages
914
Reaction score
278
thatsa 77 pacer. good old hippie lady friend of mine wanted to get it back on the road.
the cup I was referring to is the cup on the gun- i could be wrong,but i was getting the feeling you were using this one from lowes:
https://www.lowes.com/pd/Kobalt-8-in-Air-Paint-Sprayer/50129826
?
if it is, that's the cup on top. some manufacturers put a little strainer in the bottom of em. they cause problems.

i have a friend in baton rouge. sounds pretty nice in the winter down there but rather uncomfortable in the summer.
 

MikeyDSlagle

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
2,541
Reaction score
511
Ahh. That is an updated model of mine, my air knob is on bottom, but essentially the same. There is no strainer in the cup.
 

mpitfield

Moderator
Staff member
TRF Lifetime Supporter
Global Mod
Joined
Jul 7, 2013
Messages
4,904
Reaction score
433
Location
Toronto, Ontario
One thing I have not seen highlighted here is your setup?

PSI is just part of the equation. You need to remember the HV part of HVLP, HV = High Volume. So although it is important to get the right pressure (relatively Low Pressure), matching your compressor and HVLP gun for both, is very important.

With my setup I removed all of the bottlenecks out of the line, so I went with 3/8 fittings, and air hose, instead of the 1/4, I also went with an oversized air drying/filtering manifold system and used 1/2" iron pipe into a 1/2 regulator, then a multi stage filter system. Point is everything is 1/2' right off the compressor until the 3/8 hose. I have a low end electric compressor and the air is typically hot coming off the compressor, which causes moisture due to condensing. This is why I have the iron pipe, so it can condense and accumulate at the bottom of each vertical run...it works really well!

For me this made a noticeable difference for my setup as my compressor is only rated to continuously deliver 5CFM. I also hunted around for guns that had operating CFM volumes to match my compressor. I found HVLP guns that operate from 4.2 to 7.1 CFM, which in the HVLP guns anything under 5 CFM seem to be the exceptions. These were inexpensive guns $40 a piece so I picked up three, a 1.8 for prime, a 1.4 for base and a 1.3 for clear. The more expensive guns I looked at had operating air volume ranges well above what my compressor could deliver. The point is, you have to take a good look at your complete setup.

Recently I had the opportunity to spray in a professional automotive booth, using my guns, and I can tell you that the results were that much better. So as much as I have improved my setup I know my compressor is my weakest point.



 

MikeyDSlagle

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
2,541
Reaction score
511
That is a nice setup. I don't have room for anything like that. I have to drag the setup out of the shed so I can use it so everything is portable or detachable.

My compressor:

https://www.harborfreight.com/21-gal-25-hp-125-psi-cast-iron-vertical-air-compressor-61454.html

It is all 1/4" right off the compressor. I did have an iron pipe setup when I first got the compressor and used it mostly for air tools so I had a fog oiler. All of that has been scrapped to include the hose. Been looking into setting up another small manifold but haven't made any progress in that area. It sprays everything just fine, just having problems with the clear.

On two other rockets I sprayed Rusto rattle can automotive clear and it orange peeled really badly. One was my Hurricane 38 and it was bare fiberglass. I don't remember the other one though.

I know two guys that run auto body shops. I may have to hit em up to see if I can use a booth or something.
 

Woody's Workshop

Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
Joined
Aug 3, 2011
Messages
4,411
Reaction score
256
Location
Reed City, Michigan (Lower)
Something you can do that is portable is take a 25' rubber air line from the compressor and coil it in a 5 gal bucket, then to your reg/dryer filter.
Before each use fill the bucket with cold water.
I used this setup until I had my hard lines run.
 

MikeyDSlagle

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
2,541
Reaction score
511
Hmm. Interesting solution. Never would've thought of that. May give it a go.
 

tomsteve

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 24, 2014
Messages
914
Reaction score
278
Hmm. Interesting solution. Never would've thought of that. May give it a go.
it actually works pretty good. I used it when I started painting. small stuff and a little pancake compressor. them little things build up a lot of heat.
 
Top