Mixing Ratio For Microballoons

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Aris

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I am going to use about 1oz of epoxy per 2 external fillets on the rocket I am currently constructing. About how much micro balloons would be desirable for that amount of epoxy. I want the fillets to be strong but still be easy to sand. I am asking this because I really don't want to waste epoxy (aeropoxy) testing how much would be needed if I do not have to.
 
More than you think you need. You want something thick that won't spread out on you, but will still be smooth when you run your tool (or finger) over it after dipping in alcohol. Shoot for something in the toothpaste to peanut butter range.

kj
 
More than you think you need. You want something thick that won't spread out on you, but will still be smooth when you run your tool (or finger) over it after dipping in alcohol. Shoot for something in the toothpaste to peanut butter range.

kj


Is "More than you think you need" a measure of volume or weight; standard or metric?
 
just keep adding until you get the desired consistency. and yes it will be much more than you think you need. i used about triple what i thought it would take.
 
Oh so you mean add a little then mix it, add more and mix it until I get the desired toothpaste consistency?
 
Aris- DON'T add your balloons to the mixed epoxy- it will fire off and you have to start over. Add a little to *EACH* pile first to get that peanut butter consistency and then mix together. This also helps in the 'assembly line' process.
A scale and little paper cups ( think kids bathroom type) also helps. Just my farthing's worth. Build slow-fly fast!
 
What do you mean by fire off? I typically use a medicine cup, put in the amount for one component, then the other, then a bunch of balloons and mix them all together. If I need to, I add more balloons. Always seems to work.
 
Aris- DON'T add your balloons to the mixed epoxy- it will fire off and you have to start over. Add a little to *EACH* pile first to get that peanut butter consistency and then mix together. This also helps in the 'assembly line' process.
A scale and little paper cups ( think kids bathroom type) also helps. Just my farthing's worth. Build slow-fly fast!
I have to disagree with this.

You want your resin and hardener well mixed BEFORE you add any amendments. IIRC, this is stated in the West Systems Epoxy Handbook. I have not experienced quicker cure with amended epoxy vs. epoxy only. Don't forget, mixing in a flat bowl or plate will increase epoxy pot life vs. cups.

Start with a small batch of mixed epoxy and then start adding your microballoons. It does seem like a lot is required to thicken. I don't know a volume or weight number. I'd say weight would be about the only way to measure properly, as the microballoons can get compressed (sort of like flour). I wouldn't really hazard a guess.

--Lance.
 
Is "More than you think you need" a measure of volume or weight; standard or metric?

Oh yes, It's more than Quite a Bit but less than a Butt Load. About the same as "Wow, that WAS enough." Best measured out with a NASA callibrated eyeball.

In all seriousness, You can mix out your filler compound after mixing the epoxy, just use a long (30min or better) cure epoxy and just mix enough for a couple filletts at a time. 5, 10 & 15 min epoxies (my opinion only) are best suited for field repairs and the like.
 
Apologize if I gave bad/wrong advice. I've been doing it for 30 yrs that way and was taught that technique at General Dynamics on the Atlas program. Carry on gentlemen- build slow, fly fast!
 
First, I wouldn't use microballoons for fillets -- microballoons are a faring filler, which means that while they're easy to sand, they also reduce the strength.

Instead, I'd suggest using fumed silica and add filler until it's at a peanut butter consistency. Then, use Crazy Jim's technique for making nice fillets that require little or no sanding.

Finally, I always add the fillers after I mix the epoxy, so that I can make sure it's fully mixed. Can't do this with epoxies with short working times, though, as you won't have time to mix the epoxy then get the fillers totally mixed in.

-Kevin
 
First, I wouldn't use microballoons for fillets -- microballoons are a faring filler, which means that while they're easy to sand, they also reduce the strength.

Instead, I'd suggest using fumed silica and add filler until it's at a peanut butter consistency. Then, use Crazy Jim's technique for making nice fillets that require little or no sanding.

Finally, I always add the fillers after I mix the epoxy, so that I can make sure it's fully mixed. Can't do this with epoxies with short working times, though, as you won't have time to mix the epoxy then get the fillers totally mixed in.

-Kevin
I am constructing the fin can outside of the rocket first and will reinforce the fins withe fiberglass on the mmt. I was not looking for too much structural strength on the external fillets also because I will cut fiberglass strips for the external fillets too and then do the external fillets.
Does anyone know the working time on average for Aeropoxy structural adhesive?
 
Couldn't give you a time on the aeropoxy, but it is quite a while (hours?). As a temperature dependent reaction, it will proceed quite slowly at 70 F. I finally had to heat my rocket to make sure the epoxy was fully cured. I think the Aeropoxy website has all the technical specs.
 
Is it safe to assume that when I use milled fiberglass filler with the Aeropoxy, I should desire the same toothpaste consistency? Should I mix it the same way as the microballons where I first mix the 2 part epoxy then add the milled fiber in?
 
Aeropoxy has a structural adhesive with a consistency of really sticky molasses. Is that what you're using? If so, I'm not sure how easily you can add fillers to it.

Also, if you're using that stuff, I wouldn't try using fiberglass with it. If you're using their laminating resin, then it will work well with fillers and fiberglass.

-Kevin
 
Apologize if I gave bad/wrong advice. I've been doing it for 30 yrs that way and was taught that technique at General Dynamics on the Atlas program. Carry on gentlemen- build slow, fly fast!

Forbid anyone overrule instruction for experience. From the microballoon bottle... "additives may cause faster than epoxy manufacturer recommended curing times." something like that (not a direct quote)

Epoxy company is always going to tell you to mix first so that the A-comp and B-comp have a chance to mix... (if you buy just the epoxy)

Additive company doesnt care.

a person with 25 years of mixing comp-A and Comp-B and additives, what you say is sometimes a necessity to prevent adverse reactions. If youve used bondo, or epoxy clays, or aeropoxy light... you know the fillers are added to the comp before mixing.

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/wppages/aeropoxylight.php
 
Is it safe to assume that when I use milled fiberglass filler with the Aeropoxy, I should desire the same toothpaste consistency? Should I mix it the same way as the microballons where I first mix the 2 part epoxy then add the milled fiber in?

what i have found is that the more milled content, the harder it is to get a uniform aplication of the epoxy.. it kind of clumps together. so if you want a smooth aplication, add a little at a time so you dont get a consistancy that is not a pain in the ....
 
I don't think you could actually mix in too many microballons. I don't measure, I simply keep adding until the epoxy doesn't seem to want to absorb anymore. The result is almost like a heavy paste, but when it dries it is extremely easy to sand and shape - which is VERY important. I do my fillets in two steps. The first step is structural, for that my additive is chopped carbon fibers. That makes the joint extremely strong. The finishing fillet uses the microballons.
 
I don't think you could actually mix in too many microballons. I don't measure, I simply keep adding until the epoxy doesn't seem to want to absorb anymore. The result is almost like a heavy paste, but when it dries it is extremely easy to sand and shape - which is VERY important. I do my fillets in two steps. The first step is structural, for that my additive is chopped carbon fibers. That makes the joint extremely strong. The finishing fillet uses the microballons.

So if I wanted to follow what you are doing, i could use milled fiberglass for the structural fillet then a fillet mixed with microbaloons on top?

This is the aeropoxy that is in the mail: https://giantleaprocketry.com/hpdefault.asp (the structural adhesive)

Also, Whn looking at the aeropoxy website, it shows the viscosity of the strutural adhesive i am purchasing to be 45000-50000 centipose. What is centipose and what does that number mean for the consistency of the epoxy?
 
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centipoise is the measure of viscosity of a liquid. It is the resistance to flow. Water is the base rate of 1. Think ketchup for this thickness.
 
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So if I wanted to follow what you are doing, i could use milled fiberglass for the structural fillet then a fillet mixed with microbaloons on top?

Yes. Simply scuff/sand the surfaces prior to applying the structural fillet so that you can be assured of a strong joint without over-doing it with too much epoxy. You can also have the joint taped off, to control the contact area. At this point, let the joint cure keeping an eye out for bumps or drips since this joint will be very difficult to sand/fix. [Optional step for extremely strong joint: When dry, I use epoxy with no additives to wet-out the joint and surrounding area, lay down the fiberglass cloth, and wet-out the cloth with an epoxy brush or roller]. The final step is to add copius amounts of microballons to your epoxy mix and spread it on the joint (after all the previous steps have cured of course). Once that is dry, you can shape it or sand it as if its a high-quality wood filler. My experience has been if you add more ballons to the mix, its easier to sand. As this joint sets up you can start shaping it with a round dowel or tube, so that by the time its almost cured, it has the shape you want. The epoxy I use is West Systems, I haven't used the Aeropoxy.
 
I am constructing the fin can outside of the rocket first and will reinforce the fins withe fiberglass on the mmt. I was not looking for too much structural strength on the external fillets also because I will cut fiberglass strips for the external fillets too and then do the external fillets.
Does anyone know the working time on average for Aeropoxy structural adhesive?

Here are the technical specs on Aeropoxy adhesives.

The pot life is the working time before it "kicks" (begins to set), but assume it's about half that and you should be ok.

Greg

Aeropoxy Adhesives.jpg
 
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Yes. Simply scuff/sand the surfaces prior to applying the structural fillet so that you can be assured of a strong joint without over-doing it with too much epoxy. You can also have the joint taped off, to control the contact area. At this point, let the joint cure keeping an eye out for bumps or drips since this joint will be very difficult to sand/fix. [Optional step for extremely strong joint: When dry, I use epoxy with no additives to wet-out the joint and surrounding area, lay down the fiberglass cloth, and wet-out the cloth with an epoxy brush or roller]. The final step is to add copius amounts of microballons to your epoxy mix and spread it on the joint (after all the previous steps have cured of course). Once that is dry, you can shape it or sand it as if its a high-quality wood filler. My experience has been if you add more ballons to the mix, its easier to sand. As this joint sets up you can start shaping it with a round dowel or tube, so that by the time its almost cured, it has the shape you want. The epoxy I use is West Systems, I haven't used the Aeropoxy.
Should i shape the structural fillet too, or should I just lay an even structural fillet and shape the epoxy w/ microballoons fillet that goes on top
 
Aeropoxy has a structural adhesive with a consistency of really sticky molasses. Is that what you're using? If so, I'm not sure how easily you can add fillers to it.
I do it all the time. Yes, it's thicker than hardware store epoxy, but it's not that thick. I use a craft stick to mix mine. I use a scale to measure out each component so that they are equal. Measuring out the 50:50 ratio by weight works best.

I mix up my epoxy first, and then sprinkle in a spoonful or so if microballoons a little bit at a time until the mixture starts to resemble granulated sugar that has been thickened up with syrup. Sorry for the complicated analogy, but that's the best way I could come up with to describe the consistency. I fillet two adjacent fin joints at a time, because while the epoxy mixture is on the thick side, it still flows. You therefore have to keep the rocket level until it sets firm.

Aeropoxy 6209 can set firm in 4-6 hours, but in my local climate it is more like 6-8 hours. It reaches full strength in 24-36 hours, but after about 16 hours the remaining cure process is imperceptible to the builder. (IOW, it's more than 95% done at that point.) In building my Javelin XL I hastened this process quite a bit by holding a large halogen trouble light over the fillets for a half-hour to an hour per pair. Then I left them alone for another hour to an hour and a half. When I came back, the fillets, though not yet fully cured, were quite firm enough to allow me to rotate the rocket so that I could apply the next pair. More recently I have used a hair dryer to continuously blow hot air onto the fillets for 30-45 minutes at a time.

Kevin is far more experienced with HPR construction than I am (that's putting it mildly) so I would follow his advice about using other additives like fumed silica instead of microballoons for high strength fillets. When I get into building bigger rockets, that is certainly what I intend to do. I would even be using it now if I didn't already have the µBs. But for what I have built so far, the epoxy/µB mixture has proven to be more than strong enough on the few rockets that I have applied it to. (Aeropoxy isn't the only epoxy that I have mixed microballoons into.) I have used in in a few select MPRs and one H to J high power rocket. For anything beyond that I would heed Kevin's advice.
 
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Yes it is. I bought mine from these folks.

As for the "best", that is hard to say. Would it work well? Yes it would.

Greg
I would prefer not to have to purchase it because I recently bough milled fiberglass for the epoxy. Is it much more effective in your opinion to use the aerosil-cabosil filler over the milled fiberglass?

And what about the west systems fillers are they compatible with aeropoxy? https://www.uscomposites.com/westfillers.html
 
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Fillers are inert; they don't care which brand of hard resinous matrix they are embedded in.
 
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