Max Speeds with Cardboard

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MeatNTaters

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I am curious what the maximum speeds folk have been able to achieve with cardboard tubes, i.e. Loc or MMT with a thicker wall than standard airframes. I am interested in a build that doesn't require fiberglassing with can achieve Mach 1.1 and 1.5. Can it be done with poly nosecose, cardboard airframe and fiberglass fins with out doing a fiberglass layup? I'm sure this will be controversial.
 
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I am curious what the maximum speeds folk have been able to achieve with cardboard tubes, i.e. Loc or MMT with a thicker wall than standard airframes. I am interested in a build that doesn't require fiberglassing with can achieve Mach 1.1 and 1.5. Can it be done with poly nosecose, cardboard airframe and fiberglass fins with out doing a fiberglass layup? I'm sure this will be controversial.
1.6 LOC Weasel possibly
The 1.6 or 2.2 Laserloc comes with precut glass and it would have no problems and would be where I'd start.

Good fillets on the Weasel would be a necessity.
 
Can it be done? Yes! Controversial topic? Yes!

Before there was fiberglass everywhere, Loc LaserLocs were breaking mach and 20k'! Here's your answer: Laser Loc 2.1

The original Laser/Loc kits had fiberglass fins, which Loc could reproduce now that they have PML. A friend confirmed with one ‘back in the day’ on an of sight flight.
 
110% 38 and 54mm LOC tubes can break Mach and more with zero reinforcement.

whats more, those early LOC full send flights likely used friction fit motors and may have been flown off launch rods. : - ))

kinda miss the old "build it and fly it days." no "fin flutter analysis" or three month conversations on the thermal threshold of an epoxy... build it, send it, repeat!
 
110% 38 and 54mm LOC tubes can break Mach and more with zero reinforcement.

whats more, those early LOC full send flights likely used friction fit motors and may have been flown off launch rods. : - ))

kinda miss the old "build it and fly it days." no "fin flutter analysis" or three month conversations on the thermal threshold of an epoxy... build it, send it, repeat!

KISS
 
In the early days of YouTube I remember finding a video called The Speed of Cardboard (basically analogous to the famous Speed of Balsa). I don’t recall exactly what happened, maybe the tube got crushed or perhaps some heat damage.

I wish I still knew where to find it.
 
It's a lot easier than you think. I've launched rockets on quest composite motors using standard Estes tubes that Rocsim said would be 50mph shy of Mach 1!
 
In the early days of YouTube I remember finding a video called The Speed of Cardboard (basically analogous to the famous Speed of Balsa). I don’t recall exactly what happened, maybe the tube got crushed or perhaps some heat damage.

I wish I still knew where to find it.

Interesting. In the case of the airframe, think the issue would be more G force than actual speed. That said, the 38mm and 54mm LOC tubes have more than enough compression strength to handle most anything you will throw at them.
 
Yeah, it's G force, not speed. The only reason speed would be a factor would be if air drag had an effect on the tube. Otherwise, speed is not the cause.
 
Interesting. In the case of the airframe, think the issue would be more G force than actual speed. That said, the 38mm and 54mm LOC tubes have more than enough compression strength to handle most anything you will throw at them.

In my mind, flutter is the first thing to create a "speed limit." If one or more fins flutter and partially or completely fails structurally, you can get high yaw angles, or at least oscillation, which loads the tube laterally. Then the strength of the cardboard becomes a limitation. Another factor is the length of the airframe. It always wants to be a giant fun noodle and bend. The relative bendability goes up as either L^3 or L^4, I forget at the moment. The fashion of making rockets longer than they need to be to fit all the propulsion, recovery gear and payload, presumably because it "looks zoomy," works against us here. (As well as adding skin friction and weight that slow everything down.)

I haven't settled in my mind the relative importance of g-force (acceleration) vs. flutter in the failure sequence. Flutter is not only a transonic phenomenon. It can happen at almost any speed if the dynamics are right (very flexible structures). It's how a woodwind instrument works. I think it's more likely that fin flutter leads to aerodynamic excursion leads to airframe failure. I'm less inclined to think that fins simply strip off the tube due to being "left behind" by the acceleration. But if a fin does strip, that leads to aerodynamic excursion leads to airframe failure.

Also, a really long, thin-wall tube is subject to bending failure due simply to the inevitable flexing that happens during flight. This has been written about extensively in the "SuperRoc" community, which is not generally dealing with anything like transonic phenomena. An Estes Star Orbiter is simply a better rocket in every way related to performance if it's built with only one of the tubes. Build it with the VanderBurn fin upgrade and one tube, and it will be massively more capable. Replace the tube with 38mm MMT, which is effectively the same diameter, and it will go supersonic no problem.

To get the most speed out of cardboard, make it thick enough, make it no longer than it has to be to fit everything, stuff as much of the heavy stuff (trackers and altimeters) as you can as far as you can get it into the nose for stability, and make sure you don't flutter the fins. Then make it smooth on the outside.

Hmm... I have a VB SO fin upgrade kit on the shelf. This is making me think about building a minimum-length BT-60 rocket with it just to see if the Estes cardboard will live supersonically. Maybe I'll cheat and put a coupler in the fin can, but leave the rest thin.

Note that maximum apogee and maximum velocity, even with the same motor, may point toward substantially different approaches to weight and its distribution.
 
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Fin flutter is caused by air drag. Sometimes the fins will come of altogether, and take some of the tube with it! Ways to prevent fin flutter would be to have sharpened edges or an airfoil on the fins. You can also get by using really strong fins like fiberglass or really thick plywood.
 
Drag is the enemy, even when you're not necessarily going mach. I built a 5.5" upscale of the Estes Echo a couple years back. The fins were massive (over a foot in span from the airframe) forward swept semi-elliptical that were fiberglassed, epoxied to the motor tube, and had a tip to tip fiberglass layer. Flew successfully on a K456DM, but experienced...um...issues...on a K540M. The drag caused the fins to rip straight out of the airframe. The fins were still in perfect shape, but shredded the lower airframe as the motor tube shattered from the force of the drag pulling on the attachment point of the fins on the motor tube. Not pretty. So - make sure you pay very close attention to drag in this, not just for things like flutter, but for the forces exerted on the fin attachment points.
 
Rocketeers don't realize it, but drag can be worse than the rocket eating trees! Kind of hard to put all of the fins back in a rocket that is shredded like that, but with trees, you have a chance of it coming down.
 
It is not always the paper and cardboard that causes failure. Assembly technique and a lacking of straight fins can be significant causes of some failures. Then again, a K1103 or K2050 can rip off fins quite easily with the best of techniques.
 
CSI N5600 are some of the most powerful motors because they burn for an entire 3 seconds. This motor has gained the name "Rocket Eater" in my club.
 
Drag is the enemy, even when you're not necessarily going mach. I built a 5.5" upscale of the Estes Echo a couple years back. The fins were massive (over a foot in span from the airframe) forward swept semi-elliptical that were fiberglassed, epoxied to the motor tube, and had a tip to tip fiberglass layer. Flew successfully on a K456DM, but experienced...um...issues...on a K540M. The drag caused the fins to rip straight out of the airframe. The fins were still in perfect shape, but shredded the lower airframe as the motor tube shattered from the force of the drag pulling on the attachment point of the fins on the motor tube. Not pretty. So - make sure you pay very close attention to drag in this, not just for things like flutter, but for the forces exerted on the fin attachment points.

Forward swept fins are a whole different thing.
 
I am curious what the maximum speeds folk have been able to achieve with cardboard tubes, i.e. Loc or MMT with a thicker wall than standard airframes. I am interested in a build that doesn't require fiberglassing with can achieve Mach 1.1 and 1.5. Can it be done with poly nosecose, cardboard airframe and fiberglass fins with out doing a fiberglass layup? I'm sure this will be controversial.
100% doable.
 
Yup, I've exceeded mach maybe 50+ times on postal tube with no fibrous reinforcement.

Yes, the ultra lightweight Estes kits aren't designed for speed and will always fail when pushed to these extremes, but larger/heavier/stronger cardboard tubing can certainly take mild excursions over the transonic threshold.

TP
 
Yes, the ultra lightweight Estes kits aren't designed for speed and will always fail when pushed to these extremes, but larger/heavier/stronger cardboard tubing can certainly take mild excursions over the transonic threshold.

TP

The Apogee Aspire uses 0.020-thick tubing, and is said to be Mach-capable. It's pretty long, too. I'd bet that tubing, or slightly larger BT-55 with the same thickness, would go well past the transonic without issue as long as it's kept not much longer than it needs to be.
 
Textbook flutter. Not simply linear acceleration.

Before the TRF database collapse, I had sent the accelerometer data and raw video to 2 real rocket scientists that are/were on this board and they showed using CFD animation how the flat plate G10 Fiberglass flat plate fins caused the flutter. They published that here before the crash.

If the fins were tapered from tip to root like on a Nike Smoke, they would not have fluttered.
 
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I flew a 38mm LOC craft tube and plastic nose cone to about 1.6-1.7 mach on a J570.
The tiny batteries overheated and could not fire the charges but still had data on the chip even with the board broken in the crash. Acme Fin can that Wile-E ordered for me :D

Here is what it looked like on recovery after seeing the Wile-E-Coyote Mushroom cloud on the playa about 3/4 mile away to the north east. Kraft tube pushed into the hard playa and pushed the motor casing out the back.

[FYI I am not that Fat any more like in this photo or the video]

1687474186588.jpeg
 
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Before the TRF database collapse, I had sent the accelerometer data and raw video to 2 real rocket scientists that are/were on this board and they showed using CFD animation how the flat plate fins caused the flutter. They published that here before the crash.

If the fins were tapered from tip to root like on a Nike Smoke, they would not have fluttered.

Would love to see that analysis. I studied dynamics of elastic systems just enough in engineering school that it makes sense to me.

I'm also thinking that a double-wedge LE is likely to be far more flutter-resistant than a rounded flat plate. With the flat plate, any AOA shift at the leading edge, such as would arise due to twisting of the fin, gives one of the surfaces a negative angle relative to the airflow. With a wedge, at LE deflection up to the angle of the wedge, both surfaces have a positive angle relative to the airflow. So forces, although unbalanced, may not be as unbalanced at very small deflections. This should help the fin avoid the aeroelastic oscillatory buildup in response to the smallest initial perturbations. Still possible for it to flutter, but should have a little bit more cushion on the aero force buildup side. At least that makes sense to me.

Eventually, I'll be 3D printing some fin cans. They are all either double-wedge or airfoil. Might be interesting (although expensive enough I might not bother) to see if an airfoil flutters more readily than a double-wedge.
 
Thank you folks. I am wanting to attempt the F class altitude record using 29mm thick wall for a minimum diameter. I have a plastic nose cone which there will be a FG bulk head to hold my sled for the telemetrum. I plan to use 1/16 fins that are swept with a layer of 1.5 oz FB tip to tip layup. OR should I do 2?
 
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