Improving igniters

[cwbullet]

I am reviewing the forum rules:

Is posting ignitor formulas on the forum only allowed in the research forum?

I see this: "Research Rocketry (making your own motors, igniters, etc) is an advanced topic that is restricted to certified flyers from the United States. The specific details are not to be discussed except in an area specifically designated for such topics. These topics include propellant and igniter compositions and techniques for processing propellant. Posts on the topic of Research Rocketry containing information not widely available in published materials are limited to the access controlled area."

I am looking for thoughts on this.

 

[boatgeek]

I am reviewing the forum rules:

Is posting ignitor formulas on the forum only allowed in the research forum?

I see this: "Research Rocketry (making your own motors, igniters, etc) is an advanced topic that is restricted to certified flyers from the United States. The specific details are not to be discussed except in an area specifically designated for such topics. These topics include propellant and igniter compositions and techniques for processing propellant. Posts on the topic of Research Rocketry containing information not widely available in published materials are limited to the access controlled area."

I am looking for thoughts on this.

I feel like improved igniters are a different beast than research motors. Personally, I have little interest in research motors, but I have used forum advice to get better results from (say) Estes igniters. This thread has also been very useful to me in terms of storing ematches safely. Also, my understanding is that the ban on open discussion of research motors was born out of fear of getting into ITAR issues. If I understand correctly, ITAR doesn't have anything to say about igniters.

One person's opinion; there's lots of room for reasonable people to disagree on this as well.

 

[Steve Shannon]

I feel like improved igniters are a different beast than research motors. Personally, I have little interest in research motors, but I have used forum advice to get better results from (say) Estes igniters. This thread has also been very useful to me in terms of storing ematches safely. Also, my understanding is that the ban on open discussion of research motors was born out of fear of getting into ITAR issues. If I understand correctly, ITAR doesn't have anything to say about igniters.

One person's opinion; there's lots of room for reasonable people to disagree on this as well.

I agree with you, but unfortunately igniters, without a definition, are named in US Code as regulated materials. That’s why ATF includes them in CFR 555.

 

[Ladykate]

I agree with you, but unfortunately igniters, without a definition, are named in US Code as regulated materials. That’s why ATF includes them in CFR 555.

The estes starters are not regulated nor are the MJG igniters. I agree that discussing the regulated ones would seem against the rules but, to me, it is a gray area. In any case, since both types are available without proof of license then there should be some open discussion about how to handle them. The way people get hurt is to keep common safety issues secret.

 

[Steve Shannon]

The estes starters are not regulated nor are the MJG igniters. I agree that discussing the regulated ones would seem against the rules but, to me, it is a gray area. In any case, since both types are available without proof of license then there should be some open discussion about how to handle them. The way people get hurt is to keep common safety issues secret.

Nobody suggested keeping safety information secret.
The problem is that many people don’t understand that some of the effective means of “improving igniters”, in the wrong (irresponsible) hands could attract unwanted attention from regulators.
I’m not saying all discussions of initiators should be hidden, just careful and responsible.

 

[jsdemar]

My opinion.....

The detailed formulas for motor starters should be kept in the Research Forum for the same reasons that propellant formulas are required to be discussed there.

Commercial motors general come with a starter device, or they are available to purchase separately, ready to go. So, unless one is making their own propellant, there is no need to discuss making pyrogen from scratch in the unrestricted forums.

So, the topic "Improving starters" etc here should be limited to purchasing commercial "dip" products or how to enhance premade starters with common commercial (non pyrotechnic) products. I think it's ok to discuss safety in the context of "this is how I handle the process". Otherwise, it's best to find an experienced mentor and learn offline.

 

[AlexBruccoleri]

This may sound contrary to what others have experienced, but stock Estes igniters work fine for clustering if you use the plugs they provide. In fact I clustered 8 Estes C motors at the 2002 World Space Modeling Championship this way and they all lit. Surely you can do more reliable methods, but you can use stock igniters as well.

 

[dhbarr]

This may sound contrary to what others have experienced, but stock Estes igniters work fine for clustering if you use the plugs they provide. In fact I clustered 8 Estes C motors at the 2002 World Space Modeling Championship this way and they all lit. Surely you can do more reliable methods, but you can use stock igniters as well.

The 2002 black igniters yes. Later there were substantially less reliable white tips. The current gray tips are pretty good.

 

[AlexBruccoleri]

The 2002 black igniters yes. Later there were substantially less reliable white tips. The current gray tips are pretty good.

Good catch! I was not aware of the white igniters. I have used the current grays ones in clusters with the same technique and so far, all clusters have lit.

 

[cwbullet]

My opinion.....

The detailed formulas for motor starters should be kept in the Research Forum for the same reasons that propellant formulas are required to be discussed there.

Commercial motors general come with a starter device, or they are available to purchase separately, ready to go. So, unless one is making their own propellant, there is no need to discuss making pyrogen from scratch in the unrestricted forums.

So, the topic "Improving starters" etc here should be limited to purchasing commercial "dip" products or how to enhance premade starters with common commercial (non pyrotechnic) products. I think it's ok to discuss safety in the context of "this is how I handle the process". Otherwise, it's best to find an experienced mentor and learn offline.

Concur. Thanks. I have a new formula that I will post next week to the research forum that is conductive and takes two dips but makes a final result that, for motors, is very similar to the Q2G2. No bridge wire is needed.

I also think the topic of improving an existing igniter is not a research topic as long as it does not go into a true pyrogen formula. Dipping them in Testors or nitrocellulose lacquer is probably ok.

 

[cwbullet]

I feel like improved igniters are a different beast than research motors. Personally, I have little interest in research motors, but I have used forum advice to get better results from (say) Estes igniters. This thread has also been very useful to me in terms of storing ematches safely. Also, my understanding is that the ban on open discussion of research motors was born out of fear of getting into ITAR issues. If I understand correctly, ITAR doesn't have anything to say about igniters.

One person's opinion; there's lots of room for reasonable people to disagree on this as well.

I also agree - different, but I think we need to avoid prying eyes that might interpret wrongdoing. At least for me, I would like to keep my security clearance.

 

[Rocketjunkie]

Commercial motors general come with a starter device, or they are available to purchase separately, ready to go. So, unless one is making their own propellant, there is no need to discuss making pyrogen from scratch in the unrestricted forums.

Commercial motors don't come with spares. So making improved starters should interest those that only fly commercial motors. What happens if you have an 18 mm Q-Jet and the starter fails or gets damaged. I've given several people my 18 mm starters to try again. These do use a commercial dip (Quickburst ProCast).

 

[jsdemar]

Commercial motors don't come with spares. So making improved starters should interest those that only fly commercial motors. What happens if you have an 18 mm Q-Jet and the starter fails or gets damaged. I've given several people my 18 mm starters to try again. These do use a commercial dip (Quickburst ProCast).

For some commercial motors, the manufacturer sells spares. But, I think it's ok to discuss combining home-made bridge wires (or conductive dips) along with commercially available pyrogen dips.

A good example is to purchase non-regulated ematches or starters, and dip them with ProCast. Open discussion doesn't require pyrogen formulas. I've used MJG "BP Rocket Starters" along with ProCast for <H composites. Vary the amount of dipping to match the size of the motor. Likewise with MFG unregulated ematches.

 

[cwbullet]

For some commercial motors, the manufacturer sells spares. But, I think it's ok to discuss combining home-made bridge wires (or conductive dips) along with commercially available pyrogen dips.

A good example is to purchase non-regulated ematches or starters, and dip them with ProCast. Open discussion doesn't require pyrogen formulas. I've used MJG "BP Rocket Starters" along with ProCast for <H composites. Vary the amount of dipping to match the size of the motor. Likewise with MFG unregulated ematches.

This goal is not to provide fliers with options. Personally made items for personal use are probably not regulated.