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troj

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A couple folks have questioned the thread, and whether or not it belongs here. I just wanted to let folks know what's up. I'm intentionally not replying within that thread, as I don't want to misdirect it.

I, along with the moderators, have been keeping a close eye on the thread. Everyone involved has done a great job of sticking to a discussion of the incident itself, as well as what homeschooling is and is not. The discussion has been social and philosophical, but not political. I applaud each and every participant for keeping it that way.

As long as the thread continues on the path it's on, it will stay. No, it's not rocketry related, but this is the Watering Hole, and there are lots of non-rocketry related discussions in here -- it's what the Watering Hole is for.

To the participants in the thread -- keep it up! You're doing a great job of keeping what can become an emotionally charged topic from becoming one.

-Kevin
 

JonathanDunbar

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A couple folks have questioned the thread, and whether or not it belongs here. I just wanted to let folks know what's up. I'm intentionally not replying within that thread, as I don't want to misdirect it.

I, along with the moderators, have been keeping a close eye on the thread. Everyone involved has done a great job of sticking to a discussion of the incident itself, as well as what homeschooling is and is not. The discussion has been social and philosophical, but not political. I applaud each and every participant for keeping it that way.

As long as the thread continues on the path it's on, it will stay. No, it's not rocketry related, but this is the Watering Hole, and there are lots of non-rocketry related discussions in here -- it's what the Watering Hole is for.

To the participants in the thread -- keep it up! You're doing a great job of keeping what can become an emotionally charged topic from becoming one.

-Kevin

Kevin, George Gassaway, Et al.,

The thread wasn't started as a veiled attempt to get a political issue (non-rocketry) into the discussion; God only knows that when I want to be a trouble maker, I am DIRECT and OVERT about it!

It was merely pointing out an issue that affects many of us; over the years I have read but not posted on this and other forums; I was just simply burnt out from r.m.r., yet I would read postings and add the information to my memory banks. This is how I learned about the home-schooling population on here.

I knew that many of the readers and posters here home-school, and I have home schooled my daughter (26 now) and grandkids in addition to their public school course work because it was severely lacking. If I had the resources, and time, I would take over their education completely. Home-schooling is an important issue and people in rocketry use model rockets as a teaching tool for chemistry, physics, and mathematics curriculum examples.

So please George, understand, that it wasn't a way to attack people in power, insult groups, or mud-sling at individuals. It was to bring forth a topic that people might find interesting and not get bent out of shape over; well at least they shouldn't get bent out of shape.

Funny, even over at rcgroups.com in their 'life, The Universe, and Politics', they get along but still have to suspend accounts every so often because a person/topic gets to heated or enough complaints come in and they are forced to act.

I think if I ran a board, I would leave the policing of the forums up to the users; if you don't like what is posted, then ignore the poster, counter post, or don't visit the site. The board wouldn't be a profit driven site. I would have to draw the lines at sexual, racial, religious harassment; no porn or cyber (unless it is private, not posted, no child porn), and no domestic/foreign terrorism/plotting. Other than what I just listed, it would be a free-for-all of thinking, ideas, politics, and life-styles. Yep, I sure would like to find a site that is like that...

Seems to me that behind the facades, people share a whole lot in common; trying to steer people into a ‘one size fits all’ type of information exchange portal is counter productive in the long run. My opinion only.


Jonathan

P.s. Don't we honor our system that places the rights of the individual above that of the group? We aren't fascists. Freedom of speach and thinking protects not the popular voice/mind, but the unpopular. It doesn't protect, 'Have a nice day', or 'Bless you', but the antithesis of those sayings, but then like a poster pointed out, this is a privately ran board and freedom of speech is up to the what the moderators will tolerate.

While I was away before editing this posting, I registered a couple of domain names ... I think I will run a site as the one I described above.
 
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dixontj93060

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I did not participate in the aforementioned thread (although I have a ton to say on the subject as my wife and I homeschooled both kids for 16+ years) but I just wanted to say, I'm loving the new TRF. Great job Kevin!
 

BAR_Daddy

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There was some really interesting information on homeschooling in that thread, a lot of which I had never thought about before. Really interesting stuff.

I applaud the moderators for allowing the discussion to go on as long as they did. :clap:

You folks have a thankless but necessary job and I think that you are doing just fine.
 

SCE to AUX

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It seems that we have a surprising number of homeschoolers around here. :cool: I run "build and fly" sessions for our homeschooling group a few times a year, and usually get a good turnout. A couple of the parents have even joined the local rocket club and are now looking into HPR certification because they got hooked along with their kids! :D

Almost all of the kids in our group are currently too young, but if interest in rocketry keeps up, we may be looking toward organizing a homeschool TARC team in a few years.

I think if I ran a board, I would leave the policing of the forums up to the users; if you don't like what is posted, then ignore the poster, counter post, or don't visit the site. The board wouldn't be a profit driven site. I would have to draw the lines at sexual, racial, religious harassment; no porn or cyber (unless it is private, not posted, no child porn), and no domestic/foreign terrorism/plotting. Other than what I just listed, it would be a free-for-all of thinking, ideas, politics, and life-styles. Yep, I sure would like to find a site that is like that...
Sounds a lot like

http://forums.newtons3rdrocketry.com/

to me...
 

Fred22

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Kevin, George Gassaway, Et al.,

The thread wasn't started as a veiled attempt to get a political issue (non-rocketry) into the discussion; God only knows that when I want to be a trouble maker, I am DIRECT and OVERT about it!

It was merely pointing out an issue that affects many of us; over the years I have read but not posted on this and other forums; I was just simply burnt out from r.m.r., yet I would read postings and add the information to my memory banks. This is how I learned about the home-schooling population on here.

I knew that many of the readers and posters here home-school, and I have home schooled my daughter (26 now) and grandkids in addition to their public school course work because it was severely lacking. If I had the resources, and time, I would take over their education completely. Home-schooling is an important issue and people in rocketry use model rockets as a teaching tool for chemistry, physics, and mathematics curriculum examples.

So please George, understand, that it wasn't a way to attack people in power, insult groups, or mud-sling at individuals. It was to bring forth a topic that people might find interesting and not get bent out of shape over; well at least they shouldn't get bent out of shape.

Funny, even over at rcgroups.com in their 'life, The Universe, and Politics', they get along but still have to suspend accounts every so often because a person/topic gets to heated or enough complaints come in and they are forced to act.

I think if I ran a board, I would leave the policing of the forums up to the users; if you don't like what is posted, then ignore the poster, counter post, or don't visit the site. The board wouldn't be a profit driven site. I would have to draw the lines at sexual, racial, religious harassment; no porn or cyber (unless it is private, not posted, no child porn), and no domestic/foreign terrorism/plotting. Other than what I just listed, it would be a free-for-all of thinking, ideas, politics, and life-styles. Yep, I sure would like to find a site that is like that...

Seems to me that behind the facades, people share a whole lot in common; trying to steer people into a ‘one size fits all’ type of information exchange portal is counter productive in the long run. My opinion only.


Jonathan

P.s. Don't we honor our system that places the rights of the individual above that of the group? We aren't fascists. Freedom of speach and thinking protects not the popular voice/mind, but the unpopular. It doesn't protect, 'Have a nice day', or 'Bless you', but the antithesis of those sayings, but then like a poster pointed out, this is a privately ran board and freedom of speech is up to the what the moderators will tolerate.

While I was away before editing this posting, I registered a couple of domain names ... I think I will run a site as the one I described above.
You know Johnathan if you really wanted to help why dont you do some posts on rockets instead of a constant stream of politics. Ya this is a rocketry board where we ocasionally talk about rockets. There are many other areas on the board besides the waterring hole. Feel free to explore them and admire a rocket or ask a question about rockets or compliment someones work on rockets or even show a picture of a rocket you have built. I would also hasten to add there are rocketry boards where they run things as you suggest and should you choose to frequant them that would be fine.
Cheers
fred
 

sunward

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....The thread wasn't started as a veiled attempt to get a political issue (non-rocketry) into the discussion; .....
uhm, the second line in your original post, before the link or what the post was about:
I didn't realize that you had to register with the government in order to home school... why? I just don't see it as the Gov's business... or should it be?
A better post would be to link the story or (if short) post on the thread and then advise anyone who home schools to check out local regulations.

Facts only.

As Fred22 suggests, discuss rockets.
 

MysticalRockets

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I thought the thread was going along great, with some spirited, yet civil, debate. Until George came along and trashed the entire thread.

Sorry if that's inflammatory, or whatever, but its just my honest opinion.
 

Samuron

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It was to bring forth a topic that people might find interesting and not get bent out of shape over; well at least they shouldn't get bent out of shape.
26th December 2009:
Sorry for the religious and political postings. Wasn't trying to start a riot or anything; just wanted to pique interest and discussion over current events.

To the moderators, I have re-read the TOS and from now on, it will be nothing but rockets rockets and rockets!!!
 

dpower

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I thought the thread was going along great, with some spirited, yet civil, debate. Until George came along and trashed the entire thread.

Sorry if that's inflammatory, or whatever, but its just my honest opinion.
And I'm bummed, since I was learning from, and planning to add some meaningful contribution to the thread. We all lose.
 

Micromeister

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I agree and was going to add a bunch as well, The Better 2/3rds and I Home Schooled our youngest daughter 6th thur high school, Shes gone on to earn her masters degree and has always been in the upper 2% of whatever class she was put against. Unlike my Oldest daughter and Son who struggled thur the public school system first. If I had it to do over they two would have been homeschooled as well. While all three have gone on to higher things I feel I let the older two down, by NOT teaching more then we did.
We always had a wonderful, Homeschool support and fellowship group of about 80 other homeschoolers offereing any number of Social, Sport and extra activities. It was sometimes hard but always rewarding and besides its OUR MOST important responsiblilty to Teach/educate our Children, not hand them over to someone else to do it;)
 

GregGleason

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My wife is home-educating our children. It is difficult and a task that is not for the faint-hearted. My wife has a very good idea where each child is academically and our hope is that each one will be ready for university-level study at the end of the process.

Thankfully we live in Texas where the regulation is pretty light. But it always wasn't so. There were big legal battles in the 80's that cleared the field and gave parents a great amount of latitude and freedom to educate their children how they see fit. It's all part of the Texas ethos.

A big surprise for me last year was that an annual home school conference in south Texas had a record attendance, in spite of a bad economy.

Greg
 

georgegassaway

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Now that THIS thread has devolved into the original thread all over again, I’m going to jump back in.

So, here’s the thing.

The whole story that was chosen for the purpose of posting a controversial non-rocket issue on a ROCKET forum, was about parents who broke state laws.

If THAT is not politics, then every non-rocketry news story about anyone breaking a law, which some TRF poster does not think should be charged, becomes fair game to post on TRF, despite the policy against political threads.

But an easier case to make to show that this was political was this inevitability:

When people TRASH the public school system, it is POLITICS.

For whatever reasons many people who love home schooling just cannot stick to the positive things they feel about it, or the issues with doing home schooling. Many feel for whatever reasons they must attack public school systems in order to justify themselves.

And yet for some reason, attacking public schools was not considered politics by the moderators.

Indeed, one of the moderators here was deeply involved in the public school bashing.

I asked (privately) and was never given any reason why trashing public schools was not considered politics, or therefore what is the TRF definition for what is politics and what is not? I got a reply, but no real answer as to why this does not fit. In my public message, I had pointed out how this policy was clear as mud (in light of political content such as attacking public schools) and also got no answer to that aspect.

I was also publicly accused by a moderator of a specific political leaning without that moderator explaining why. And I asked that moderator twice (privately) to explain why that moderator would imply that but all I got was continued silence.

So it seems while “open discussion” is promoted on this thread for the sake of home-schooling, the nuts and bolts of what is politics, what is not politics, and why a moderator would publicly accuse a poster of a specific political direction is, is not open for discussion publicly, or privately.
And yet the “closed thread” continues to go on by proxy in this thread, where the politics of public school bashing continues, despite a TRF policy that in theory says no politics but in practice is clear as mud.

- George Gassaway
 

MysticalRockets

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Once again, George, you HAD to go and do it again. So, I'll try and explain it the way that I see it.


THAT some public schools may be bad is not political. It is simply a statement of belief and/or fact.

WHY some public schools may be bad delves into politics, in many cases.

I went to public school. I had great teachers who encouraged us to excel. If those teachers were still teaching, I would send my child to them without hesitation.

In places, public schools are bad. My sister pulled her kids out of school because of a problem with the school board. They tried to punish her children because she complained about a problem she saw. They were all excellent students, grades wise, while in public school, and continued to be so in home school.

Unfortunately, you took this to be bashing public schools. Nobody is. Yes, there is a problem with public schools today, and this is ONE solution. It doesn't work for everybody. if you don't like it, hey, that's your choice, and you can do whatever you wish to resolve the problem.
 

Samuron

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My sister pulled her kids out of school because of a problem with the school board. They tried to punish her children because she complained about a problem she saw.
Oh, well, as long as it wasn't politics.
 

MysticalRockets

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Oh, well, as long as it wasn't politics.

Nope. They refused to do something about a number of bullies running around in a pack. Problem was, the pack were kids of some rather influential people in this city.
 

Samuron

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Nope. They refused to do something about a number of bullies running around in a pack. Problem was, the pack were kids of some rather influential people in this city.
You say your sister was retaliated against by an elected school board because she complained about the kids of influential people.

Just exactly how do you define politics?
 

shrox

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You say your sister was retaliated against by an elected school board because she complained about the kids of influential people.

Just exactly how do you define politics?
Bad politics, bad school.
 

Samuron

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Bad politics, bad school.
He didn't say it was a bad school; the kids were apparently doing well.

They didn't start homeschooling until, he claims, the school board attacked them, because of a conflict with their mom.
 

shrox

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He didn't say it was a bad school; the kids were apparently doing well.

They didn't start homeschooling until, he claims, the school board attacked them, because of a conflict with their mom.
I said "bad politics, bad school" because those that are entrusted with our children's education are letting pettiness get in the way of the mission of the school system, to educate children to a certain demonstrable level of literacy.
 

Samuron

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I said "bad politics, bad school" because those that are entrusted with our children's education are letting pettiness get in the way of the mission of the school system, to educate children to a certain demonstrable level of literacy.
I suppose that applies to the homeschoolers as well as the school system.

Regardless, you're willing to take his word for the facts of the situation?
 
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MysticalRockets

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I said "bad politics, bad school" because those that are entrusted with our children's education are letting pettiness get in the way of the mission of the school system, to educate children to a certain demonstrable level of literacy.

That, and with all the trouble it caused, we suspected all of her kids were about to get expelled. even the one in 1st grade at the time. She embarrassed a few people, and her kids were suffering for it. So she pulled them before they could do it.

Fortunately, the problem no longer exists. Unfortunately, it ended in a bad way. 1 of the pack is dead, 3 in jail, one of them for life without parole. Glad my nieces and nephews were out of there when it happened.
 

georgegassaway

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Once again, George, you HAD to go and do it again.
You and others kept mentioning me, and so I wasn’t going to sit back anymore.

So let me rehash as I see quite a number of the messages:

Individual local bad situations that are used as a Blah-Blah wide sweeping generalization to bash public schools.

Blah-Blah- Politics .

Blah-Blah- bashing public schools in general.

Blah-Blah-ignore TRF policy about no politics (pretend it does not exist).

[dead silence from the mods as to WHY TRF does not consider this to be politics or what is the TRF definition of politics or not politics]

And of course, blame George, blame George, and do not ever expect me to reply despite continued mention of my name in this thread (so blame me yet again for making my FIRST reply to this specific thread).

Privately I got some messages supporting what I said, but most of those folks are not posting publicly here since apparently they do not want to get tarred and feathered as “trashing the thread” and get the same blame George treatment.

And not even one peep by a moderator about the actual issues I raised. So, now that 9 messages have been posted since I said it, let me repeat them which for at least one moderator should be about the 4th time that moderator has read some aspects of them (and this will be the second time all the moderators see exactly this part):

“I asked (privately) and was never given any reason why trashing public schools was not considered politics, or therefore what is the TRF definition for what is politics and what is not? I got a reply, but no real answer as to why this does not fit. In my public message, I had pointed out how this policy was clear as mud (in light of political content such as attacking public schools) and also got no answer to that aspect.

I was also publicly accused by a moderator of a specific political leaning without that moderator explaining why. And I asked that moderator twice (privately) to explain why that moderator would imply that but all I got was continued silence.

So it seems while “open discussion” is promoted on this thread for the sake of home-schooling, the nuts and bolts of what is politics, what is not politics, and why a moderator would publicly accuse a poster of a specific political direction is, is not open for discussion publicly, or privately.
And yet the “closed thread” continues to go on by proxy in this thread, where the politics of public school bashing continues, despite a TRF policy that in theory says no politics but in practice is clear as mud.”

- George Gassaway
 

sylvie369

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Okay, I will speak up. Here's what I see happening (Wikipedia version, and yes, I'm aware that this is a description rather than an explanation):

Wikipedia said:
The false consensus effect is the tendency for people to project their way of thinking onto other people.[1] In other words, they assume that everyone else thinks the same way they do. This supposed correlation is unsubstantiated by statistical data, leading to the perception of a consensus that does not exist. This logical fallacy involves a group or individual assuming that their own opinions, beliefs and predilections are more prevalent amongst the general public than they really are.

This bias is commonly present in a group setting where one thinks the collective opinion of their own group matches that of the larger population. Since the members of a group reach a consensus and rarely encounter those who dispute it, they tend to believe that everybody thinks the same way.

As an extension, when confronted with evidence that a consensus does not exist, people often assume that the others who do not agree with them are defective in some way.[2] There is no single cause for this cognitive bias; the availability heuristic and self-serving bias have been suggested as at least partial underlying factors. There could also be protective mechanisms behind this phenomenon.

The false consensus effect can be contrasted with pluralistic ignorance. In pluralistic ignorance, people privately disdain but publicly support a norm (or a belief), while the false consensus effect causes people to wrongly assume that most people think like them, while in reality most people do not think like them (and express the disagreement openly). For instance, pluralistic ignorance may lead a student to drink alcohol excessively because he believes that everyone else does that, while in reality everyone else also wishes they could avoid binge drinking, but no one expresses that due to the fear of being ostracized. A false consensus for the same situation would mean that a student believes that most other people enjoy excessive drinking, while most other people do not enjoy that and openly express their opinion about it.
It's easy to believe you're being non-political when you have convinced yourself that everyone other than "defective" people agree with your view on the situation. But you're often wrong.

Personally, I think this thread should also be locked, and we should return to talking about rockets.
 
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Samuron

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It's easy to believe you're being non-political when you have convinced yourself that everyone other than "defective" people agree with your view on the situation. But you're often wrong.
And either way, you have a good chance of alienating people.

I enjoy talking politics; I'm on several political and religious forums. But I avoid injecting such topics into my hobby groups, because it has so often caused conflict where it just isn't necessary.

Homeschooling is a subject that has caused massive strife within my family, and I have strong opinions on it. I hated to see it here, because it seemed to be exactly the type of subject the Forum Rules said we wouldn't have.

Since it kept going, I let myself get involved; as a result, in my few recent posts here, I have made snide comments to a (previously unknown to me) member of my own local club, and Shrox, for crying out loud. I never expected my first interaction with here Shrox would be about homeschooling.

I agree that this post should be locked and we should stick to rockets. For my part, I apologize for any annoying commentsand I'll refrain from such postings in the future.
 

troj

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Enough. Let's call it quits on this topic.

-Kevin
 
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