Garmin Astro: Legal?

[beezwax]

Thanks for the update, Chuck.

keep at it.

+1 Thanks for being on point with this Chuck.

 

[beezwax]

Without reading all three pages all I have to say is for the cost of the astro and GPS unit you can buy a setup that is legal, lighter weight (have you seen the size of the astro??), and get a portable ham radio which you could find other uses for or go the 900mhz route if you don't want to get your tech license but heck for a week or so of studying it's nice to have that privilege. If you already have an Astro I'd just trade it up on ebay for legit equipment. Just my 2 cents.

Well, if you were to take the time to read this thread before offering your opinion you might conclude that your two cents adds less to the sum of the discussion than you first imagined. No hard feelings intended, that just would generally seem to be good practice. For whatever it's worth, I have the new Garmin DC40 tracker, and with no permanent modification (just opening up the case and putting the stock battery next to the board instead of over it) I can fit the tracker into a 38mm coupler tube. If I wanted to do slightly more modding I could remove the board from the case, swap the stock battery for a much smaller LiPo battery, and fit it into a 29mm airframe. Good enough for any flying I'll ever do.

EDIT: actually the stock battery would also fit into a 29mm airframe, you'd only need to swap for LiPo if weight is a concern...

 

[RadManCF]

The discussion around RSOs and NAR/Tripoli is a second thread here. I'd like to believe that my launch coordinators have a greater interest in my flight plan than just the explicit safety points as outlined in the HPR code. I think they can and do exercise a broader control over launch activities, and I think this is as it should be.

I feel the same way about RSO responsibilities. When I pull a shift as RSO, I deal with all kinds of things that have little to do with the safety codes. For example, the codes say nothing about horseplay. I often spend half my time as RSO telling off rowdy children, and their parents. The NAR code says nothing about alchohol, but our insurance won't cover claims if alchoholic beverages were involved. So, while it hasn't occured at my club, I would not have second thoughts about asking a participant to leave the range if they were consuming alchohol.

 

[RadManCF]

Well, if you were to take the time to read this thread before offering your opinion you might conclude that your two cents adds less to the sum of the discussion than you first imagined. No hard feelings intended, that just would generally seem to be good practice. For whatever it's worth, I have the new Garmin DC40 tracker, and with no permanent modification (just opening up the case and putting the stock battery next to the board instead of over it) I can fit the tracker into a 38mm coupler tube. If I wanted to do slightly more modding I could remove the board from the case, swap the stock battery for a much smaller LiPo battery, and fit it into a 29mm airframe. Good enough for any flying I'll ever do.

So, how much does that unit cost?

 

[Derek]

So, how much does that unit cost?

~$450 for the complete set.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B003SVQSSG/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

 

[beezwax]

So, how much does that unit cost?

I bought the newest bundle, which includes the Astro 320 and a DC40 collar. I believe MSRP for that package is $600, but I know I paid less than that, probably closer to $500 since I remember jumping on some kind of deal or discount. But I think that you can easily spend that much or more on a nice RDF kit (by the time you add an HT transceiver, Yagi antenna, offset attenuator, cables, connections, ground station interface, etc etc etc to the price of your RDF beacon). $500 for a plug-n-play system is pretty competitive.

EDIT: Yes, you can pay even less, for example if you go with the Astro 220 bundle, just fewer bells and whistles, and significantly less if you pick up a used/older version, such as the the DC20/30 collars off of eBay. Though I don't believe you'd be able to fit the DC20/30 trackers into quite as small airframes as the DC40.

 

[bigredbee]

BTW, A full blown 900 Mhz system from BigRedBee costs just over $400. It's FCC certified, utilizes a u-blox 6 GPS chipset, records 2 1/2 hrs of flight data.....

Regarding the price of RDF, I've been using a $150 radio receiver and a home-made yagi for years -- no need for lots of other fancy equipment.

But back to the regulatory issue, I too would be very surprised if the FCC responded in writing with anything different from what's written down already, which makes it pretty clear that airborne operation on MURS frequencies is prohibited.

 

[Derek]

I bought the newest bundle, which includes the Astro 320 and a DC40 collar. I believe MSRP for that package is $600, but I know I paid less than that, probably closer to $500 since I remember jumping on some kind of deal or discount.

that one is ~$550.

example:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0055QZ2JS/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

 

[Derek]

BTW, A full blown 900 Mhz system from BigRedBee costs just over $400. It's FCC certified, utilizes a u-blox 6 GPS chipset, records 2 1/2 hrs of flight data.....

but that is only half of the solution.

Regarding the price of RDF, I've been using a $150 radio receiver and a home-made yagi for years -- no need for lots of other fancy equipment.

and this isn't comparable to a gps tracker.

 

[beezwax]

That may be true that reading in entirety would be good practice but it seems that after 4 pages that it's still being debated on whether to use one after the legalities have been stated that maybe more input was needed. Sorry if you took it personal because you have one but I was more directing the response to the original post not directly to you. As for having one well you read my feelings on them but do as you wish.

No worries, I didn't take your post personally. Why would I, if you begin by saying you haven't read any of what came before? My thought was simply that if you leap cold into a four-page conversation you don't actually know what has been or is still being debated do you? So you might not be as on-topic or helpful as you think you're being. That's all.

 

[bigredbee]

but that is only half of the solution.

No -- $417 gets you the transmitter and a hand-held receiver.

and this isn't comparable to a gps tracker.

The OP used the word RDF, not GPS.

 

[Derek]

No -- $417 gets you the transmitter and a hand-held receiver.

sorry, you are correct. I was thinking of your other systems.

however does your solution show you where on a map the rocket is or the distance and bearing to it?

if not, you would need something else, like a computer, smartphone or handheld gps.

 

[bigredbee]

No -- the BR900 screen simply provides the coordinates of the transmitter, so you do need to come up with your own solution for getting there.

 

[beezwax]

I have no personal experience with BRB systems, but I've heard only good things about them. They are competitively priced, and it is certainly possible to put together a tracking system for less than $500, especially if you do things like build your own yagi antenna and go with a cheap HT, Baofeng instead of Yaesu for example. This presupposes a certain level of electronic handiness and and therefore the ability to prioritize cost over a la cart cobbling. The Garmin is a complete system, and very easy for a beginner to pick up and use. There are pros and cons for any rocket tracking kit and they have all been debated before in other threads.

But back to the regulatory issue, I too would be very surprised if the FCC responded in writing with anything different from what's written down already, which makes it pretty clear that airborne operation on MURS frequencies is prohibited.

Clearly.

 

[bigredbee]

I think we're combining two different threads.

1) A COMPLETE BRB900 RX/TX system costs just over $400. Ready to use, out of the box, just turn it on.

2) An RDF system can be cobbled together for well under $500 (even with a Yaesu radio and a store bought antenna)

 

[RadManCF]

I have no personal experience with BRB systems, but I've heard only good things about them. They are competitively priced, and it is certainly possible to put together a tracking system for less than $500, especially if you do things like build your own yagi antenna and go with a cheap HT, Baofeng instead of Yaesu for example. This presupposes a certain level of electronic handiness and and therefore the ability to prioritize cost over a la cart cobbling. The Garmin is a complete system, and very easy for a beginner to pick up and use. There are pros and cons for any rocket tracking kit and they have all been debated before in other threads.



Clearly.

So if we're priceing out a HAM setup, this is what I've found:
BRB RDF beacon: $85 (includes bells and whistles)
Baofeng 2M/70cm HT: $50
Handheld 3 element yagi antenna: $30.
Offset attenuator (not necessary, but if the HT doesn't have an attenuator built in, can be quite useful) : $59

If you want to spring for a better HT, a suitable Alinco, Icom, or Yaesu device can be had for around $140.

 

[troj]

So if we're priceing out a HAM setup, this is what I've found:
BRB RDF beacon: $85 (includes bells and whistles)
Baofeng 2M/70cm HT: $50
Handheld 3 element yagi antenna: $30.
Offset attenuator (not necessary, but if the HT doesn't have an attenuator built in, can be quite useful) : $59

If you want to spring for a better HT, a suitable Alinco, Icom, or Yaesu device can be had for around $140.

If you go the eBay/swap meet route, you can buy a used radio for significantly less.

-Kevin

 

[beezwax]

All true. I could also spend over $400 just to get a Yaesu VX-8GR, then I'd have built-in GPS just like uh...my Garmin. No color map though. Kind of like buying a car, you're going to have to shell out a certain amount just to get yourself on the road. After that it depends how much luxury you want. By now I think we're combining more than two threads.

 

[RadManCF]

All true. I could also spend over $400 just to get a Yaesu VX-8GR, then I'd have built-in GPS just like uh...my Garmin. No color map though. Kind of like buying a car, you're going to have to shell out a certain amount just to get yourself on the road. After that it depends how much luxury you want. By now I think we're combining more than two threads.

Yeah, I got into an RDF vs GPS thread about a month and a half ago. It's amazing how heated that debate can get.

 

[JordanT]

Since the thread is full hijack mode, I may as well add that seeing the price of even the older Garmin makes me feel like I got a bargain in the BRB version. Sure, the GPS transmitter was almost $300 shipped with all the bits and pieces needed, but since I already own a smartphone, the added cost of a HAM license, Radio, and app to decode the tracker signal and pinpoint the rocket location on Google Earth was $65 combined. The only downside is holding the phone on top of the radio so that it can "hear" the beacon and decode it. The first time I used it "for real" was my L2 flight to 6000+ feet. A fellow* at the launch offered to drive me to it - I even told him which old barn it landed near based on the aerial photography. If I could just figure out how to make an earphone-to-microphone cable, I could just stick the radio on my belt and ignore that part of the equipment entirely. Heck, if I had an Android phone it would have been even easier as the HAM apps are better.



*Okay, it wasn't some random guy. It was Mike, the prefect, and after seeing it work he thought it might be a good idea for the club to get a tracker or two to loan.

 

[RadManCF]

Since the thread is full hijack mode, I may as well add that seeing the price of even the older Garmin makes me feel like I got a bargain in the BRB version. Sure, the GPS transmitter was almost $300 shipped with all the bits and pieces needed, but since I already own a smartphone, the added cost of a HAM license, Radio, and app to decode the tracker signal and pinpoint the rocket location on Google Earth was $65 combined. The only downside is holding the phone on top of the radio so that it can "hear" the beacon and decode it. The first time I used it "for real" was my L2 flight to 6000+ feet. A fellow* at the launch offered to drive me to it - I even told him which old barn it landed near based on the aerial photography. If I could just figure out how to make an earphone-to-microphone cable, I could just stick the radio on my belt and ignore that part of the equipment entirely. Heck, if I had an Android phone it would have been even easier as the HAM apps are better.



*Okay, it wasn't some random guy. It was Mike, the prefect, and after seeing it work he thought it might be a good idea for the club to get a tracker or two to loan.

Check out the thread I started on APRS, you may be interested.

 

[cwbullet]

Ok guys I have an answer:

If your radio equipment is authorized to operate on the MURS channels, there would not be an FCC license necessary to utilize these channels. Please ensure you comply with FCC Rule 95.632. As long as your radio is authorized to operate on a MURS channel and you follow the above rule, there is no violation.

Answers to my question:

1. Is there a restriction or violation on putting the device in a rocket and I quoted the 60' and 20' rule many have used?

This rule applies to ground based and building mounted antennas use and not rockets or aircraft. Aircraft and watercraft usage is allowed if permitted by the airline or captain.

I think that ends the discussion by my part. My goal is to buy a BRB when I return. The Garmin was just a stepping stone for me. My stepfather suggested because he bear hunts with them They end up way higher than 60 feet or most of our rockets when you talk about feet above sea level. No one is worried about the hunters interrupting MURS or overriding their signals and there are 10-20s of them for everyone of us. I know it is apples and oranges, but you may have 50 radio collars on each hunt.

 

[RadManCF]

Ok guys I have an answer:



Answers to my question:

1. Is there a restriction or violation on putting the device in a rocket and I quoted the 60' and 20' rule many have used?



I think that ends the discussion by my part. My goal is to buy a BRB when I return. The Garmin was just a stepping stone for me. My stepfather suggested because he bear hunts with them They end up way higher than 60 feet or most of our rockets when you talk about feet above sea level. No one is worried about the hunters interrupting MURS or overriding their signals and there are 10-20s of them for everyone of us. I know it is apples and oranges, but you may have 50 radio collars on each hunt.

Chuck, thanks for taking the time to look into this. I am a bit surprised, but oh well. One less thing to worry about.

 

[cwbullet]

I am glad to be of service. I suspected yesterday when it was bounced up the chain what the response would be, but I did not want to post till I got the final response.

Again, I would be unlikely to use them often because they weight so much. I prefer a RF or smaller tracker.

 

[RadManCF]

My attitude is to always err on the side of caution in regulatory matters, that's why I wouldn't have used one.

 

[beezwax]

Nice! This is the answer I was hoping to hear of course, but I have to admit I am still pleasantly surprised. Maybe I am naturally pessimistic but as I mentioned to Chris in our PM conversation I had no great faith that the FCC would give its blessing after being directly approached on the matter, even if there has been no actual harm shown from such usage, for the simple reason that it is always easier to deny rather than approve a request and people tend to do whatever will create less work for them. So Bravo FCC, thanks for not defaulting to such predictable behavior, it's a benefit to the hobby in my opinion. Anyone want to bring this TRF thread to the attention of Tripoli-MN?

 

[beezwax]

And, again, thanks Chuck for doing all the legwork on this.

 

[user 8716]

Anyone want to bring this TRF thread to the attention of Tripoli-MN?

Their BOD are listed on their website, since you seem so concerned about being able to use Astros I suggest you contact them.

 

[beezwax]

Their BOD are listed on their website, since you seem so concerned about being able to use Astros I suggest you contact them.

Sure, I could, as could anyone else in a matter of seconds. But I'm not a member of Tripoli-MN and in fact I'm not a Tripoli member at all, so I figured there would probably be a more logical contact than me. Maybe someone who is on a private messaging board with this group, such as yourself?

 

[mkadams001]

My attitude is to always err on the side of caution in regulatory matters, that's why I wouldn't have used one.

Interesting, I generally push the boundaries on regulatory matters.


CW, thanks for chasing this down. I hope you pass the info on to the mentioned Tripoli club.