Flashbulbs, Christmas Lights, and Glow Plugs

[Arnold Roquerre]

Thanks, did not think about that. I have used the set up, but I never considered longevity. Your right! Adding a diode is simple enough. With that addition one has all that is needed to fire off any match the battery can handle. The bottom line is one does not need an electric match.

 

[Rock_It]

.

 

[quickburst]

The Explosives list:

Not sure if this is the most current list or not. There may be an updated list somewhere.
See:
https://www.space-rockets.com/listofexp.html


Items on list that are used in rocketry:
Ammonium perchlorate composite propellant (APCP).
Black powder.
Chlorate explosive mixtures (used in e-matches).
Igniters.
Smokeless powder (Smokeless Gun Powder).

If we win the lawsuit, and I have every confidence we will, it will remove APCP from the list above. The other items will remain.

You must have a LEUP to use these items in rocketry*. There’s no way around it. My suggestion, go get the LEUP. If you can’t get the LEUP due to the storage requirements, then there is a legal way to use a friends storage.

*There are exemptions.
Black powder or APCP motors with no more than 62.5 grams of propellant.
Black powder used for ejection charges in the exempt motors.
Igniters shipped with exempt rocket motors.

To make things clear:
Black powder and Smokeless powder are illegal to use in rocketry without a LEUP (or equal) and it doesn't matter how you light it.

Note:
Your ATF contact may dispute the above.

 

[WillMarchant]

Originally posted by QuickBurst
The Explosives list:

Not sure if this is the most current list or not. There may be an updated list somewhere.
See:
https://www.space-rockets.com/listofexp.html

You can find the ATF's online version at https://www.atf.gov/explarson/explosives-list.htm

 

[Arnold Roquerre]

IEven if this is so, there are still lots of ways to get a bang without using FFFF or Pyrodex. Technically one could rig up a spring loaded mechanism to fire a pin into a CO2 cartridge without the use of ematches

As far as motors goes, I believe sugar motors and are not under hybrid motors burning nitrous and plastic do not require LEUPS.

Originally posted by QuickBurst
The Explosives list:

Not sure if this is the most current list or not. There may be an updated list somewhere.
See:
https://www.space-rockets.com/listofexp.html


Items on list that are used in rocketry:
Ammonium perchlorate composite propellant (APCP).
Black powder.
Chlorate explosive mixtures (used in e-matches).
Igniters.
Smokeless powder (Smokeless Gun Powder).

If we win the lawsuit, and I have every confidence we will, it will remove APCP from the list above. The other items will remain.

You must have a LEUP to use these items in rocketry*. There’s no way around it. My suggestion, go get the LEUP. If you can’t get the LEUP due to the storage requirements, then there is a legal way to use a friends storage.

*There are exemptions.
Black powder or APCP motors with no more than 62.5 grams of propellant.
Black powder used for ejection charges in the exempt motors.
Igniters shipped with exempt rocket motors.

To make things clear:
Black powder and Smokeless powder are illegal to use in rocketry without a LEUP (or equal) and it doesn't matter how you light it.

Note:
Your ATF contact may dispute the above. The only thing the ATF seems to do consistently is to remain inconsistent.

 

[BAR0051]

Has anyone come up with a method using an exempted PAD such as those used by auto airbag systems or blank firearm cartradges like those used in nailguns?

 

[mpraska]

I'm not a chemist but I had found that with airbags sodium azide creates the nitrogen with an electronic initiator. Now sodium azide is highly toxic and I haven't looked but is probably restricted. I'm sure another sutable chemical exists that can offer simular 'poofs' of gas as does the sodium azide. Using a glow plug initiator with a gas generating chemical should provide the force needed to deploy recovery devices, and therefore completely exempt from the pesky ATF peeps.

Going to research this angle some more and see what I can come up with. Too bad I am not a college (or maybe high school student for that matter) where I can ask the chem prof for some kindly help.

 

[UhClem]

Automotive airbags are not exempt because they are propellant actuated devices, believe it or not. See the 1997 ATF Explosives Newsletter and the Q&A section of the 2000 edition of the Orange Book. Note that the gas generator _is_ a regulated explosive prior to installation and if it is removed.

I went looking at the cartridges for nail guns. They are _not_ blank firearm cartridges. What I saw were 27 caliber cartridges. Not only have I never heard of a 27 caliber firearm, but these were built in such a way that they could never, ever have a bullet added to them. By the ATF's own "logic" they can't be exempted as PAD's because the cartridges are not part of a device. I also can't see how they could possibly fit the "small arms ammunition or components" exemption. Unless you considered a nail gun small arms. In which case why doesn't Home Depot have an FFL?

 

[BAR0051]

I stand corrected, I totally misunderstood. After re-reading the info on the latest BATF rulling see that clearly.

 

[bobkrech]

The current BATFE Explosives list is here. https://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/01jan20061800/edocket.access.gpo.gov/2006/pdf/E6-15850.pdf

Links to the current and past lists are here. https://www.atf.gov/firearms/rules/gennotices.htm

Note that azide explosives are on the list. Airbag cartridges contain other materials in addition to sodium azide which in and of itself is not an explosive in a conventional sense. (It is highly toxic, and can make very unstable copper azide explosives when dumped down a drain. It is not something you want to fool around with.)

Also if you were to remove the propellant from an exempt propellant actuated device, the propellent is no longer exempt.

Bob

 

[MaxQ]

*There are exemptions:
Black powder or APCP motors with no more than 62.5 grams of propellant.
Black powder used for ejection charges in the exempt motors.
Igniters shipped with exempt rocket motors.


Black powder and Smokeless powder are illegal to use in rocketry without a LEUP (or equal) and it doesn't matter how you light it.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, on the field, people take the "exempt" black powder from the "exempt" rocket motor (that motor that doesn't need an LEUP) and put it in their ejection canister......where does the need for an LEUP come into play there?

How about using a small "exempt" Black Powder Estes motor as an ejection charge for a piston?

 

[quickburst]

Ask the ATF. I'm sure they will supply an answer.

It may not be right, and you may get a different answer from every agent you ask, but you will get an answer.

Let me guess what one of the answers will be .... "Black powder is on the explosives list, that makes it an explosive. You need a permit to use, own or store an explosive."

 

[quickburst]

Originally posted by MaxQ
So, on the field, people take the "exempt" black powder from the "exempt" rocket motor (that motor that doesn't need an LEUP) and put it in their ejection canister......where does the need for an LEUP come into play there?

How about using a small "exempt" Black Powder Estes motor as an ejection charge for a piston?

A guess:
When you remove the exempt black powder from an exempt motor it is no longer exempt. It is black powder.


"How about using a small "exempt" Black Powder Estes motor as an ejection charge for a piston?"
I have no idea. Would that work?

Why re-design the wheel? Get the LEUP, and go about business as usual. You will need it no matter how the lawsuit comes out.

 

[MaxQ]

Well, I probably would - if it was as easy as people make it out to be.

But I live in a city...as long as people call it an "explosive" (when it isn't) the fire department other agencies and insurance companies have major issues with it.

We had a local vendor with a contingency storage option ...until recently.
His storage became a problem.

I guess that's the trouble with those things, here today, gone tomorrow.

If I had access to a replacement vendor w/a storage contingency, or a friend with a LEUP that was willing to share storage - or a club that had one and would share storage - I would get one ...but so far no one has come up with the option in 6 months of trying and talking.
And then there is the traveling to the better large launch sites that are across the state line issue.


I've been waiting for one of the club fields across state to get back to me on the subject of "club storage" and they haven't yet.

It isn't as easy as "the Department" makes it out to be......

 

[Tom Riddle]

Just use exempt smokeless and field dipped matches/igniters.

 

[quickburst]

Originally posted by Tom Riddle
Just use exempt smokeless and field dipped matches/igniters.

Smokeless powder is on the explosives list too.

 

[Tom Riddle]

Exemptions:
"(4) Small arms ammunition and components of
small arms ammunition."

Q&A:
Q: Is smokeless powder designed for use in
small arms ammunition subject to the
explosives storage requirements?

A: No. Smokeless powder designed for use in small
arms ammunition is exempt from regulation under
18 U.S.C. Chapter 40 and the regulations in 27
CFR Part 55.

All the smokeless power on the reload shelf is a "component of" and "designed for use in small arms ammunition". It says nothing about use or intended use as does black power.

Orange book, Orange book Q&A, SEA Q&A.

 

[Pem Tech]

Originally posted by n3tjm
I had 100% success with christmass bulbs till 2 flights had recovery failure. I determined that the bulbs were different in lots, even though all my bulbs were taken from the same brand of lights. Now I use e-matches. Now I am back to the drawing board....

Would someone be so kind as to give me a run-down on the christmas bulb method?

Use them as is?
Expose the filiment?
Talk naughty to them?

Thanks...

 

[Hospital_Rocket]

Personally I call the National Enquirer, however this link will also work

This links directly to a PDF

 

[Pem Tech]

Originally posted by Hospital_Rocket
Personally I call the National Enquirer, however this link will also work

This links directly to a PDF

Personally I call them Sally, however the link was exactly what I needed.