Finstock material question

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markschnell

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Hey fellow MicroMaxx rocketeers, I have a question about finstock for a few micros I'm working on. I'm doing several micro goonies and also a micro Broadsword.

What is the best finstock? I saw that on Jim Flis's Diminutive Deuce prototype he used playing cards for the fins. Is that a good choice?

How about thin styrene sheets, too heavy? Is really thin balsa too fragile?

I'm hoping to get the builds for these going hot and heavy this weekend with photos to follow. Just curious what you all thought.

Thanks
 
For quick and dirty 3FNC Micros, I use cardboard from food boxes which is not as thick as cereal box cardboard.

Playing cards sound like an excellent idea.

I currently roll body tubes out of a surplus paper which is a little thicker than typing paper and thinner than 67 lb. cardstock. I slit the tube walls with a #11 blade and glue the fins in the slit (extra support for these very thin types of fin).

Cardstock (67 lb.), folded over and glued only at the edges, I think would make a very strong hollow fin, and give you more surface area for gluing.

Let us know what works out for you, and of course send pictures!!

Greg
 
It really depends on the model size and your tolerance for mass.

to be Honest I use just about everything you can think of as fin materials for most of my downscales. Playing cards has been a decent material, as has file folder, and phenolic index cards.

I am particurlarly fond of 1/32" basswood, 1/64 and 3/64" 3ply birch aircraft plywood, .005, .010 and .015" Garolite (G10) and 1/16" Balsa and Basswood on some of the larger models or where lots of fin airfoil sanding is going to be done.
.010" white styrene is also a decent material as long as you rememeber in hot weather it has a tendency to soften and bend...it bend right back into shape but it does soften.

Most any Cardstock can work as long as the spans aren't that much. As Greg said they are great if you're folding in planforms (3 pc Nike fins) or laminating several pieces, 67lb or 110lb both work well.

Keep in mind we want to keep our Micros between 7 and 10 grams Ewt. for best performance...unless clustered;)
Jims Diminutive deuce kits use 1/16" basswood and the thing is pretty heavy.

My only micro Goonie is the Micro Missile Toe which used 1/32" basswood for the fins. It's a BT-5 size model actually used gauze to wrap the toe.
Never thought about downscaling the broadsword, Perhaps I'll do an Optima which was the same model in an earlier configuration:)
 
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Thanks John, I knew you'd come through with some great options. I'm doing the goonies with a bt-5 so I think I'll try the 1/32 basswood like you did. I'm doing the Zoom Broom, Cloud Hopper, and the Galaxy Guppy. I'm also hoping to do an Evel Knievel Sky Cycle in the next week or so and I think I might try the playing card option just to do something different.

BTW - What did you do for nose weight in the micro goony you did?


Greg, thanks for the tips.
 
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1/32" thick basswood, 1/64" thick plywood, 1/16" thick balsa, 110 lb. cardstock, and sheet styrene are the materials that I have used. The thin plywood and styrene are good if you are doing downscales and want the fins to look "scale." One way to make sturdy, small fins is to cut them out of cereal-box cardboard and then laminate them with paper or cardstock. I made hollow built-up fins that were 1/2" long, 3/8" wide and 1/16" thick out of cardstock for my Micro Midnight Expresses. ASP's micro scale kits use styrene for the fins, which gives them an appropriately thin profile. You have to either brush paint them or airbrush them, though, because the solvents in regular spray paint attacks the material, making it very soft.

MK
 
Actually, the original proto type for the Diminutive Deuce uses 1/16" balsa :) The playing cards were a sticker I made.

All of the suggestions here are top notch. Actually the playing card idea is very cool. My only concern would be how well that card finish would take paint. I would suggest that you rough it up first with some extra-fine sandpaper (same with any fin material with a glossy finish)
 
Thanks John, I knew you'd come through with some great options. I'm doing the goonies with a bt-5 so I think I'll try the 1/32 basswood like you did. I'm doing the Zoom Broom, Cloud Hopper, and the Galaxy Guppy. I'm also hoping to do an Evel Knievel Sky Cycle in the next week or so and I think I might try the playing card option just to do something different.

BTW - What did you do for nose weight in the micro goony you did?


Greg, thanks for the tips.

Greg:
As always tiny amount of Clay, with #9 lead shot with a bit of epoxy to seal and hold the mass in the very tip of the nosecone. The cone used is the plastic version estes PNC-5V. with all plastic NC's use a file or gouge to rough up in inside surface of the cone giving the clay & epoxy something to hold on to.
 
Actually, the original proto type for the Diminutive Deuce uses 1/16" balsa :) The playing cards were a sticker I made.

All of the suggestions here are top notch. Actually the playing card idea is very cool. My only concern would be how well that card finish would take paint. I would suggest that you rough it up first with some extra-fine sandpaper (same with any fin material with a glossy finish)

Just a gentle once over with 320grit seemed to do a great job Jim. Just need to get the primer a little tooth to get a grip on. I've only used playing cards on Minimum diameter tiny models because of the stiffness of the plastic coating. Hope this is helpful.
 
Actually, the original proto type for the Diminutive Deuce uses 1/16" balsa :) The playing cards were a sticker I made.

Okay, that's just funny. But since John mentioned that they can work well I don't feel completely stupid. :confused2:

I'm going to be posting pics of the build soon. I got decals from Excelsior for the goonies.
 
I like a couple layers of 110# cardstock for mmx fins - just be sure to rotate one of the layers 90 degrees from the other to counter the tendency of glued cardstock to warp along the grain of the paper (yes, most paper does have grain just like wood). You can even pre-print color and/or graphics on it before assembly - just be sure to give it a couple coats of clear gloss to protect it from moisture if using an inkjet printer.
 
I like a couple layers of 110# cardstock for mmx fins - just be sure to rotate one of the layers 90 degrees from the other to counter the tendency of glued cardstock to warp along the grain of the paper (yes, most paper does have grain just like wood). You can even pre-print color and/or graphics on it before assembly - just be sure to give it a couple coats of clear gloss to protect it from moisture if using an inkjet printer.
Good tip. I usually just press mine between books until the glue dries, but the information about the grain is good to know.

I use BBs and clay for nose weight in micros. They are much easier to obtain than lead shot, and they are much cheaper than split shot.

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MK
 
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Oh, I still press mine under a large book (an old edition of the CRC Handbook for those who are nostalgic about being a Chemistry major! :rolleyes:) but rotating the grain makes the process a little better.
 
Not to get to far off subject I'd like to explain why I generally suggest #9 lead shot (Bird shot) over BB's or even splitshot sinkers.

They are among the commonly available reload materials available in 1 to 25lb containers thru most sporting goods, gun shops, Old time hardware stores and many industrial supply houses (like McMaster). They are an easily obtained product in most local areas, Possibly not as easy as BB's but close.

They are the Smallest diameter shot made, .080" in dia. so they pack into very tiny areas. This can be most important with micros.

But the biggest reason for me is that because they are So small and Dense I can use fewer Placed further forward in a model to achieve the same CG movement. This is many times more critical to getting a model to fly then anything else when available space is next to nothing;)

I have and use lots of other items for nose weight (Sand, Clay, Crushed stone, splitshot, sinkers, wine bottle seals & lables, elevator weight shavings, ground babbitt, bronze filings, etc) but for the most part these tiny #9 shot have proven to be the best overall chioce.

Many talk about the danger of having "lead" in anything. preferring sand as it dispurses on impact... Baloney, shot can dispurse also if allowed to float rather then be completely bound into a mass of CA or epoxy. Most who use sand to the same thing soaking it with CA. the old fun fact "which would you rather be hit with a pound of Steel or a pound of feathers" comes into play, fact is both are still a pound only the volumn is different.
Be safe; use whichever Nose weight material fits your needs. If you go with any Lead based product do wash your hands after handling but it's one of these products that has and is a very helpful material.

PS; Yes; I'd use depleted uranium if I could get my hands on it LOL!!! Now that's DENSE!
 
I like to use 67# coverstock for Micros.

I preprint them and roll the body tube using spent 13mm motors and laminate the fins cross grain like Greg mentioned earlier.

I use the plastic nose cones from the bulk pack and they are heavy enough that I haven't had to add nose weight to any of these.

The two goonies are just a Cloud Hopper and Missle Toe with alternate color scheme.

Since they are preprinted, the only painting required is the nose cone.

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Why stop at uranium when you could get Ununoctium? 118# on the periodic table...

Now See Scrap!
Your post above is a perfect example of what many folks have been trying hard to teach you.
Please don't bother adding extraneous posts that simply have no bearning on what was being talked about. A waste of time both and typing and Reading. Let's at least try to say close to the subject at hand;)

To that end another material I forgot to mention is calendered Polycarbonate "Film" sheeting. Available down to .010" and .015" thickness it makes very nice Clear fins for scale models and other applications (like stabalizing the LPB Saturn-V).
 
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Why stop at uranium when you could get Ununoctium? 118# on the periodic table...

Because of a few reasons:

1) Ununoctium is extraordinarily radioactive, making it both hazardous and short-lived (as in much, much less than a second)

2) Density and atomic number are not directly correlated. Tungsten is more dense than gold, uranium, and lead for example, despite having a lower atomic number than all of them (in fact, it is the most dense non-precious metal).

3) Even if ununoctium were both long-lived and dense, you wouldn't be able to get any for anything remotely resembling a reasonable price.
 
Because of a few reasons:

1) Ununoctium is extraordinarily radioactive, making it both hazardous and short-lived (as in much, much less than a second)

2) Density and atomic number are not directly correlated. Tungsten is more dense than gold, uranium, and lead for example, despite having a lower atomic number than all of them (in fact, it is the most dense non-precious metal).

3) Even if ununoctium were both long-lived and dense, you wouldn't be able to get any for anything remotely resembling a reasonable price.

Cjl:
I didn't want to give SD all the answers...especially 1 & 2. I was hoping to have him tell us why his post wasn't all that helpful.
 
careful what you ask for....

https://unitednuclear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=16_17_69&products_id=211

Same company sells Aerogel, that really covers both ends of the spectrum!

I'm familar with the Company, Not really what was referred to but yes all interesting stuff.
Isn't Aerogel one of those "WOW" materials...95% "nothing" but stronger then steel....Man! Just amazing; As is Transparent Aluminum, Metal foams & Carbon Nanotubes. However all of these exotic materials are both too rare and Way to expensive for use in our micros.
The Better 2/3rds would have my head of I orders Anything that cost 15 to 30 bucks a sq.in. for use as micro fins reguardless of how light it was. She's not to happy when I get .005" & .010" Garolite/Fr4 sheet.

As for the Uranium or Tungsten for that matter. It all comes down to the size of the pieces we can get for the price, unless we're buying in powdered form which again makes them both very hard to find and expensive.
For the present I'll have to remain a advocate of #9 (.080"dia) .05g each good old lead shot for micro model Nose weights.
 
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