EX Motor Questions (no formulation data please)

[Bat-mite]

Kruegon,

I don't do EX, but I think you'll want to get the BurnSim software, and you'll want some kind of contraption for testing your motors.

 

[FredA]

My home club is NAR and I'm an officer in the club.

So where are you going to fly the motors you make? Not at a NAR only club.....
TRA and NAR have reciprocal agreements. What's the problem with being TRA only in a NAR club?
Not trying to be snarky or hijack this thread....I truly don't understand the issue if "money is tight" why one membership isn't enough. (I get the "support both" notion)

 

[Kruegon]

My home club, BRB, is NAR. I also fly at PMW, which is TRA. And I fly with HARA / MC2 which is both.

My home club is NAR. I support NAR for that reason if no other. TRA is required for EX. Also, as I understand it, NAR members are not covered under TRA insurance even at sanctioned club launches.

 

[Handeman]

I understand the whole L2 requirement to fly EX motors at a TRA sanctioned research launch, but that is as far as it goes. Some people seem to think TRA L2 cert is a requirement to make EX motors, it isn't.

There is no reason you have to be L2 certified or a TRA member to make and fly EX motors. The "requirement" is that you are legal with the FAA, ATF, and your local AHJ when you make and fly your own motors. If you have the landowners permission and get your own waiver, you can fly any size EX motor you want on your own if that fits within the local AHJ. TRA allows EX motors to be flown at their sanctioned (insured) launches and as a condition of that (insurance), the flier must be certified L2 in TRA. TRA has no rules or regulations concerning the manufacture of motors and they don't want anything to do with trying to control or regulate the manufacture of motors.

 

[FredA]

TRA has no rules or regulations concerning the manufacture of motors and they don't want anything to do with trying to control or regulate the manufacture of motors.

TRA regulates what motors fly at their launches....either commercial or research made by the flier and the flier needs to be L2 or better (with some latitude for team members of the motor maker)

But for "indy" launches you can fly whatever you want....just better be insured in case something bad happens.

 

[Lowpuller]

How do you get insurance for this type of thing???

 

[FredA]

How do you get insurance for this type of thing???

Umm....call an insurance agent.....
Get coverage that satisfies the land owner plus whatever else makes you comfortable that you won't loose your house, etc. if you burn down the place or worse.....

 

[Kruegon]

TRA regulates what motors fly at their launches....either commercial or research made by the flier

So wait, you can't fly a motor someone else made? I'm asking because I know for a fact I have seen two people fly on motors made by a different person. Also heard this guy agree to make an O motor for someone.

 

[FredA]

So wait, you can't fly a motor someone else made? I'm asking because I know for a fact I have seen two people fly on motors made by a different person. Also heard this guy agree to make an O motor for someone.

The motor maker MUST be present at the launch and his/her name must be on the flight card.....don't care who's rocket the motor is in.....
TRA will make exceptions to this rule, but by BOD approval on a case-by-case basis.
And of course, commercial motors are not held to this rule, but then they go through the certification process to gain this exception.

I gotta say I'm surprised/disappointed that the TRA brass are not providing the definitive answers to this and similar questions....I know they are here....why are they not taking the lead and educating the readership on the rules???? And they wonder why rules are not understood and folklore is the accepted substitute.....
To that end, know what the above is my understanding of the rules. My version of folklore I guess....

 

[Worsaer]

I gotta say I'm surprised/disappointed that the TRA brass are not providing the definitive answers to this and similar questions....I know they are here....why are they not taking the lead and educating the readership on the rules???? And they wonder why rules are not understood and folklore is the accepted substitute.....
To that end, know what the above is my understanding of the rules. My version of folklore I guess....

Research rules are published and available to all members on the Tripoli website. Why not go directly to the official source of information, rather than rely on word of mouth or personal interpretation?

 

[tbonerocketeer]

Before I start:

Please do not post anything that could get any of us in trouble. No formulas, no ingredients, nothing.

With that being said, the questions are simple. I could probably locate this info on the web, but I didn't have any success in my searches.

Very soon I'm going to be getting into EX. I've already started working on a basic understanding. As I won't have my L2 until at least February, I cannot gain access to the research forum. Nothing I'm asking will break the law.

I know you can use Loki, AMW, and Gorilla motors for EX loads. Are there any other motors that can be used?

Loki has reusable nozzles. Do any of the others offer this,

My experience with RMS is strictly Aerotech. There are washers and o-rings in them. Do the snap ring motors use these? Are they some special order item or can they be obtained normally?

I've seen pictures of the mixing being done in kitchen aid mixers. I've heard tale of a shaking table. I know there's a mandrel used to create the core. Is there any other equipment required that I could start purchasing ahead of time?

I know they are packed into liners then cut to length. Is there two liners like with AT motors? One the grains are packed and formed in and a second one to line the motor case?

That's it. If there's anything else that I need to know ahead of time, fill me in. Just please don't get us in trouble.

ADMIN: By everything I have read and checked, these questions are not an issue from any legal standpoint. If you do not agree, feel free to delete. I won't be offended. I just want to be prepared as much as I legally can.

Find a local mentor.....and all can be revealed

 

[tbonerocketeer]

So wait, you can't fly a motor someone else made? I'm asking because I know for a fact I have seen two people fly on motors made by a different person. Also heard this guy agree to make an O motor for someone.

Part of this as well is I can make a motor, and give it to you, but I can't sell it to you. I can however have you cover material cost, but not make a profit on it. I've made O motors for another flyer, and was there for the flight. He paid for his chemicals and liner though, and helped cast the batch he flew.

 

[Steve Shannon]

So wait, you can't fly a motor someone else made? I'm asking because I know for a fact I have seen two people fly on motors made by a different person. Also heard this guy agree to make an O motor for someone.

The motor maker MUST be present at the launch and his/her name must be on the flight card.....don't care who's rocket the motor is in.....
TRA will make exceptions to this rule, but by BOD approval on a case-by-case basis.
And of course, commercial motors are not held to this rule, but then they go through the certification process to gain this exception.

I gotta say I'm surprised/disappointed that the TRA brass are not providing the definitive answers to this and similar questions....I know they are here....why are they not taking the lead and educating the readership on the rules???? And they wonder why rules are not understood and folklore is the accepted substitute.....
To that end, know what the above is my understanding of the rules. My version of folklore I guess....

Fred, your "folklore" answer about research flyers flying their own motors two hours ago was the first question that had any uncertainty about it. It's too bad you're disappointed, but I was sleeping. Also, TRF is not the Tripoli Forum. If a person is seeking official interpretation of Tripoli rules, that's the best place.
As far as the answer to the question, as Worsaer said, the Tripoli Research Safety Code (RSC) is the gospel source.
https://www.tripoli.org/Portals/1/Documents/Safety Code/Research Safety Code - May 2016.pdf
In my opinion, all I see in the code is that research motors may not be sold or distributed for profit and that for a group project the person who made the motor must be present. I don't immediately see a rule that says a L2 or higher Tripoli member may not fly a research member made and provided (at no profit) by another TRA L2 or higher member, but I could be mistaken. Which rule did you think said that?


Steve Shannon

 

[Worsaer]

It's possible there is confusion related to records. There are restrictions in the rules for Tripoli Competition Events. For individual records, both rocket and research motor must have been constructed by the flier.

Similarly for group competition projects, one of the group must have made the motor and be present at all times.

The official reference is found here: https://www.tripoli.org/Records/Rules

 

[FredA]

7.3.3. All flights and static tests that use research motors shall be conducted by Tripoli members who are Tripoli certified level 2 or higher.

See....people DON'T know the rules......
And the rules change without notice nor markup of changes.....

TRA can do better.
Help clarify the understanding of rules - work to eliminate dissemination of incorrect information when it occurs.
Tell the world when and what changed in the rules when you change them.

 

[Steve Shannon]

7.3.3. All flights and static tests that use research motors shall be conducted by Tripoli members who are Tripoli certified level 2 or higher.

See....people DON'T know the rules......
And the rules change without notice nor markup of changes.....

TRA can do better.
Help clarify the understanding of rules - work to eliminate dissemination of incorrect information when it occurs.
Tell the world when and what changed in the rules when you change them.

Fred,
I'm not sure what you're trying to get at, so I cannot very well work to eliminate dissemination of incorrect information, but the rules of the RSC only apply to people who are participating in Tripoli Research Launches.
1.1.4. This code shall not apply to the self-manufacture or process of manufacture of rocket motors or propellants for an individual's own use.
Maybe you can help by explaining what incorrect information is being disseminated.
I agree with you that when rules change we need to announce and explain the changes. That's typical of most rule making bodies and we should do it also. I would expect that will happen in the Tripoli Forum.


Steve Shannon

 

[ksaves2]

Ummmm, I suspect if the research motor is in the "M" range the flier has to be L3 certified no? A motor maker doesn't have to be even in any organization if they have no intention of flying but that is kinda goofy if they have to give away
the propellant they make to a certified flier to fly. Kurt

 

[Steve Shannon]

Ummmm, I suspect if the research motor is in the "M" range the flier has to be L3 certified no? A motor maker doesn't have to be even in any organization if they have no intention of flying but that is kinda goofy if they have to give away
the propellant they make to a certified flier to fly. Kurt

Yes, Kurt, you must have the proper certification level to match the motor.

I don't believe you can fly a motor made by someone who is not a TRA member at a TRL. Only Tripoli members are allowed to participate in Tripoli research motor activities.

 

[Worsaer]

Sort of - a person can make anything they want (subject to whatever local ordinances may apply, of course). It would indeed be goofy to build a motor you are not allowed to fly or test, and there are likely few Tripoli members certified at L3 that would be willing to fly a motor made by someone else that wasn't certified at that level. According to the rules, an L3 Tripoli member could static test an 'M' for an L2 member; as I read it that would fall under the definition of a 'Group Project'. In any event, the RSO has the ultimate say and can deny the static test or flight.


7. Tripoli Research Launches

7.3.2. All flights and static tests conducted by the member shall be within the member’s
certification level, with the exception of permitted TRA or NAR flyer certification
attempts, using certified rocket motors.

7.3.3. All flights and static tests that use research motors shall be conducted by Tripoli members
who are Tripoli certified level 2 or higher.

7.3.5. A person who makes the research motor(s) for a Tripoli Research group project may do so
only if he/she is an official member of said group, and may collect only the costs (without
profit) for materials used to produce the motor(s) for use in the group project.

7.3.6. The person who makes the research motor(s) for a Tripoli Research group project shall be
physically present at that Tripoli Research group project flight, and shall retain
possession of the rocket motor(s) for the group project until such time as the motor(s) are
installed.

7.6. Launch Director and Range Safety Officer

7.7.1. The LD/RSO may, for any reason, refuse to allow the launch or static testing of any rocket
motor or rocket that he or she deems to be unsafe.

7.7.2. Decisions of the Launch Director and/or the Range Safety Officer shall, in every case, be
final.


(The full text of Research Rules is available to Tripoli Members on the Tripoli.org website.)

 

[Steve Shannon]

I think that it boils down to the question of whether a non Tripoli member can be an official member of a Tripoli research group project.

 

[FredA]

"Group" is such a loose term.
A handful of people standing together can be described as "a group"..... as in "there is a group of people standing on the corner."

AFAIK, the following is the permitted minimum:
You (anyone) makes a motor.
Somebody in TRA who is L2 (or L3 if the motor is > L impulse) then flies [somebody's] rocket at a TRA research launch while the motor maker is present.

This SEEMS to be within the rules.

 

[Steve Shannon]

"Group" is such a loose term.
A handful of people standing together can be described as "a group"..... as in "there is a group of people standing on the corner."

AFAIK, the following is the permitted minimum:
You (anyone) makes a motor.
Somebody in TRA who is L2 (or L3 if the motor is > L impulse) then flies [somebody's] rocket at a TRA research launch while the motor maker is present.

This SEEMS to be within the rules.

I absolutely agree. I do wonder what was meant by the word "official" in the code.
Most of the things we discuss related to the code is how to clarify, not change the meaning.

 

[ksaves2]

Yes, Kurt, you must have the proper certification level to match the motor.

I don't believe you can fly a motor made by someone who is not a TRA member at a TRL. Only Tripoli members are allowed to participate in Tripoli research motor activities.

That may be the case and I suspect there likely is no motor maven out there who's not a member of TRA so it's moot. That said, a "shady" flier could sign and said
he/she made it when he/she didn't and none would know for the better.

Also there may be a gray area if a flier is say an L2 and supposedly is flying a short cased 75mm L with an uncharacterized propellant mix. Again could get "into" the M range without anyone knowing except perhaps surmised from the altimeter data. At a busy launch no one would likely bother or care unless the stupid offender is dopey enough to brag or show off the data. That would be a direct ticket to expulsion
if believed not to be an "accident". A 54mm K that kinda looks like an L. Gonna kick the L2 out for it? Again, that would be hard to prove.

The way I see it, 7.3.6 is now unenforceable in this day and age of not requiring LEUP for possession. People get involved with a large number of fliers mixing
and packing a variety of motor grain sizes 29's, 38's, 54's, 75's etc. of a single mix type. The L3's take the M's and O's while the rest of us take the smaller motors. Don't believe me? Attend a group mix where 25 to 30kgs. of propellant is being mixed. No one remembers who packed what or who drilled the cores
on the Bates grains on the drill press with the smaller motors. I've packed O's simply because there needs to be enough people present to get the mix
packed before the curative starts to kick off. The flier who flies it is certainly L3 but the entire "group" present at the motors "births" are not necessarily
all at the launch when the motors are flown. Some of the rules are becoming unenforceably irrelevant concerning the "maker of the motor" appellation.
Really doesn't matter though because the flier is going to say it's theirs and as long as it's obviously within their certification, no one will know or care
who did what and presumed the flier made the motor.

As far as an L3 testing an M for an L2, what is preached in an above post would only apply to a ground, static test at a TRA launch. If someone wants to test a motor they made on their own property/farm, TRA has nothing to do with it and no liability. Kurt

 

[Worsaer]

As far as an L3 testing an M for an L2, what is preached in an above post would only apply to a ground, static test at a TRA launch. If someone wants to test a motor they made on their own property/farm, TRA has nothing to do with it and no liability. Kurt

Totally Agree!

 

[DavidMcCann]

Maybe we don't need so many stupid rules.

 

[Steve Shannon]

Maybe we don't need so many stupid rules.

Which rules are stupid?

 

[ksaves2]

Which rules are stupid?

Rephrase that irrelevant as opposed to stupid. O.k. 7.3.6 is irrelevant. What does a "Tripoli Research Group Project" mean? A rocket made by a group of people? A rocket is a rocket. When is it called a research rocket? I thought the term was a group build. Doesn't matter who builds the rocket. It could be built by a group of 100 garden gnomes for that matter. If an appropriately certified flier brings it, it passes muster for safety and the flight venue and they put their name on the card, it can fly with a research motor. (Not for a cert flight though o.k.)
Ummm, a group "built" rocket could be flown with a certified motor(s) so is it not Research anymore? I believe the term should be a group built rocket flown with a research motor.

A "Research Motor" is a research motor which is likely not made by any one person if it's part of a group endeavor "that mixed/machined the motor grains". Sure one guy can do it all in small batches and indeed
7.3.6 could be easily complied with in that case.

Nonetheless, anyone can show up to a Research launch with a "Research" motor, said they made it and that's that. They can leave the rule the same as is and even though it is outdated it won't impact flying one iota. Kurt

 

[Steve Shannon]

Rephrase that irrelevant as opposed to stupid. O.k. 7.3.6 is irrelevant. What does a "Tripoli Research Group Project" mean? A rocket made by a group of people? A rocket is a rocket. When is it called a research rocket? I thought the term was a group build. Doesn't matter who builds the rocket. It could be built by a group of 100 garden gnomes for that matter. If an appropriately certified flier brings it, it passes muster for safety and the flight venue and they put their name on the card, it can fly with a research motor. (Not for a cert flight though o.k.)
Ummm, a group "built" rocket could be flown with a certified motor(s) so is it not Research anymore? I believe the term should be a group built rocket flown with a research motor.

A "Research Motor" is a research motor which is likely not made by any one person if it's part of a group endeavor "that mixed/machined the motor grains". Sure one guy can do it all in small batches and indeed
7.3.6 could be easily complied with in that case.

Nonetheless, anyone can show up to a Research launch with a "Research" motor, said they made it and that's that. They can leave the rule the same as is and even though it is outdated it won't impact flying one iota. Kurt

7.3.6 says nothing about "Research Rockets." It just requires that in a group project the person who built the motor be an official member of the group and in attendance. A Tripoli Research Group Project is not defined. I think we can do better. I think a good example of such a group project would be Stu Barrett and Jim Jarvis working together for the last BALLS launch. I don't know all the details but I think Stu was responsible for the booster motor and Jim made the rocket and took care of the sustainer motor. Both were present at launch and both were identified on the flight card. To me that's a great example of what the rules mean.
You seem worked up over this Kurt. That wasn't my intention when I asked the question. I really want to know how we can do better.

 

[FredA]

I suspect there likely is no motor maven out there who's not a member of TRA so it's moot

There is, of course, he who shall not be named......so not moot.
He could be an "invited guest" who happened to make the motor....for his "group."

 

[Steve Shannon]

I suspect there likely is no motor maven out there who's not a member of TRA so it's moot

There is, of course, he who shall not be named......so not moot.
He could be an "invited guest" who happened to make the motor....for his "group."

Depending on the meaning of "official member of said group" you may be exactly right. I don't know.