Estes Der Big Red Max Upgrade HPR Build

[Lloyd Leichentritt]

This is only intended for the LP or MP guys that maybe starting in the hobby on my options on my DBRM build. All you HP guys out class me so this may be boring to you guys as it is still only a estes kit.

My plan is to use the Vander-Burn Plywood Upgrade Kit (with 4 centering rings) from Launch Lab Rocketry and longer MMT 12” cut down to 8” from LOC Precision to replace the 6” Estes MMT. I will be making a fin can then cutting the body tube just like in the LOC kits for extra strength because I plan on flying it on some Aerotech DMS H motors and maybe a I205W-14A. Because of this I will be replacing the launch lugs with rail buttons. Haven’t decided on rounding the leading edge of the fins or beveling them.

I will be using a U-Bolt to the Aft ring with a 12’-15’ looped caviar shock cord with on of my Rocketman chutes. Of course, I will be using my JLCR wrapped up in Nomex chute protector. One Idea I had was to use the DBRM skull chute as a streamer with only 2-4 line on the bottom. Kind of a Skull flag on the way down.

I have modified Jim Parsons OpenRocket Estes Der Big Red Max file for the upgrades and to get my flight data from the motors I will be using. I’m using the new version OpenRocket version 22.02 Bata 01 and so far, I’m really liking it. Adding the rail button was sweet.

I haven't made up my mind yet on if I want to use the Estes stickeres or go with the vinyl from Stickershock23. I really want a nice candy apple red ( will need you imput on the best way to do this) and will be finning it off with Spaymax 2K clear just becouse I love this stuff.

Here is my unboxing and with some of my upgrade stuff.


The Vander-Burn Plywood Upgrade Kit (with 4 centering rings) from Launch Lab Rocketry:


Here are some of the items I will not be using, not sure yet about using the skull chute as a streamer. Mybe your input may make up my mind.

 

[StreuB1]

The Estes Mega DRM is my favorite rocket to fly. I did my L1 (3rd time?) on it with an H115DM. It flies amazing on the 29/180 RMS case with the H128W providing AMAZING flights. Just flew mine a month ago and it always performs perfectly.

I also have the AMW Fibermax and it flies wonderfully on the J275W.

You can NEVER go wrong with the DRM!

One thing to be mindful of. Make SURE you increase the thickness of the fins else you will kill it if you push it too hard. The fins are big and thin and they will literally flutter the rocket to pieces. On the Estes as stock, its a lamination. On the Fibermax, I took the G10 fins and laminated both sides with 1/8" basswood using West Systems, resulting in 3/8" thick fins. This is a must if you plan to push that thing into the H realm and beyond.

 

[Lloyd Leichentritt]

The Estes Mega DRM is my favorite rocket to fly. I did my L1 (3rd time?) on it with an H115DM. It flies amazing on the 29/180 RMS case with the H128W providing AMAZING flights. Just flew mine a month ago and it always performs perfectly.

I also have the AMW Fibermax and it flies wonderfully on the J275W.

You can NEVER go wrong with the DRM!

One thing to be mindful of. Make SURE you increase the thickness of the fins else you will kill it if you push it too hard. The fins are big and thin and they will literally flutter the rocket to pieces. On the Estes as stock, its a lamination. On the Fibermax, I took the G10 fins and laminated both sides with 1/8" basswood using West Systems, resulting in 3/8" thick fins. This is a must if you plan to push that thing into the H realm and beyond.

Thanks, Brian... So you think the 1/8" plywood won't hold up on H motors? an option then would be to glass them, haven't done that before but there is always a first time for everything.

 

[StreuB1]

Its not the strength, its the harmonics. Making the fins thicker but retaining light weight reduces the fins resonant response. It effectively deadens the fins tendency to vibrate by increasing their modulus. Laminating with a thick and light material will do just this; stiff and light with an upper and lower skin providing skin tension. This helps reduce the tendency to vibrate.

Fiberglassing them but leaving them thin will just drive the resonant frequency higher up. While they will be stronger, the flutter can ultimately rip the cardboard apart.

I only mention this because you commented about an I motor. Small H's will be OK I would imagine. I will bet though you will here them buzzing.

 

[Rocketless]

This is only intended for the LP or MP guys that maybe starting in the hobby on my options on my DBRM build. All you HP guys out class me so this may be boring to you guys as it is still only a estes kit.

My plan is to use the Vander-Burn Plywood Upgrade Kit (with 4 centering rings) from Launch Lab Rocketry and longer MMT 12” cut down to 8” from LOC Precision to replace the 6” Estes MMT. I will be making a fin can then cutting the body tube just like in the LOC kits for extra strength because I plan on flying it on some Aerotech DMS H motors and maybe a I205W-14A. Because of this I will be replacing the launch lugs with rail buttons. Haven’t decided on rounding the leading edge of the fins or beveling them.

I will be using a U-Bolt to the Aft ring with a 12’-15’ looped caviar shock cord with on of my Rocketman chutes. Of course, I will be using my JLCR wrapped up in Nomex chute protector. One Idea I had was to use the DBRM skull chute as a streamer with only 2-4 line on the bottom. Kind of a Skull flag on the way down.

I have modified Jim Parsons OpenRocket Estes Der Big Red Max file for the upgrades and to get my flight data from the motors I will be using. I’m using the new version OpenRocket version 22.02 Bata 01 and so far, I’m really liking it. Adding the rail button was sweet.

I haven't made up my mind yet on if I want to use the Estes stickeres or go with the vinyl from Stickershock23. I really want a nice candy apple red ( will need you imput on the best way to do this) and will be finning it off with Spaymax 2K clear just becouse I love this stuff.

Here is my unboxing and with some of my upgrade stuff.
View attachment 516594

The Vander-Burn Plywood Upgrade Kit (with 4 centering rings) from Launch Lab Rocketry:
View attachment 516596

Here are some of the items I will not be using, not sure yet about using the skull chute as a streamer. Mybe your input may make up my mind.
View attachment 516597

How long is the body tube?

 

[Lloyd Leichentritt]

How long is the body tube?

The body tube is a 3" at 15.5"

 

[DigBaddy]

StreuB1 has a good point. I've only built my Der Big stock, but papered the fins. 1/8" thick with that profile is pretty flimsy, even ply. Definitely steal the approach for the Mega DRM's fins and slap some 1/16" balsa on each side. Won't add much more weight and a bit of thickness won't kill altitudes too much. It'll be much more robust for those high power flights and look better too. Thin fins on the Der Big look wrong.

 

[DigBaddy]

I suppose one could also just glue the stock balsa to one side of each ply fin. I'm just not smart enough to know if that would cause anything weird when flying. I'd all are the same, I wouldn't think so...should balance out fine.

 

[Rocketless]

The body tube is a 3" at 15.5"

Thanks!
Where does the center of pressure end up?
I am thinking of adding balsa skins to the Vanderburn fins now

 

[Lloyd Leichentritt]

Thanks!
Where does the center of pressure end up?
I am thinking of adding balsa skins to the Vanderburn fins now

Here is my OpenRocket data with a H195NT. This is with the 1/8" plywood fins. I haven't calculated the 1/4" fins plywood or balsa laminated.

 

[Rocketless]

Here is my OpenRocket data with a H195NT. This is with the 1/8" plywood fins. I haven't calculated the 1/4" fins plywood or balsa laminated.
View attachment 516615

CH and CP look good on this!

 

[Lloyd Leichentritt]

So I'm looking at using 1/16" balsa on both sides. That will make it 3/16" thick.

 

[Rocketless]

So I'm looking at using 1/16" balsa on both sides. That will make it 3/16" thick.

4/16 or 2/8 thick??

 

[Lloyd Leichentritt]

I picked-up some 1/16" basswood sheet that will work out great. So that will increase the thickness to 3/16" (.1875)

 

[ZoomieG]

I picked-up some 1/16" basswood sheet that will work out great. So that will increase the thickness to 3/16" (.1875)

If you add 1/16" basswood to each side, you are adding 1/8" to your 1/8" ply. Overall width will be 1/4", not 3/16", which is what @Rocketless was hinting at.

Also note that @StreuB1 was talking about the Mega Der Red Max, which is the older 4" kit. It has very different and much larger fins that are a laminate of 1/8" plywood frame plus 3/32" balsa skins.

The original BT-60 DRM had 1/8" fins. A 3" version should have fins that are 0.229" thick. Adding 1/16 to each side to get to 1/4"(0.25) will actually put you pretty close. The stock DBRM fins are only 1/8", probably in an effort to keep weight to a minimum. You could also use 1/32", which would get you to your 3/16" overall.

 

[SEWAR]

Did an upgrade with some of the parts listed earlier. It flew great on an H125.

 

[John Taylor]

Thanks, Brian... So you think the 1/8" plywood won't hold up on H motors? an option then would be to glass them, haven't done that before but there is always a first time for everything.

1/8" Baltic Birch aircraft grade plywood TTW will stand up to high thrust motors and fairly high speed. The stock 3 part fins are junk.
I've flown mine so far up to I140.

 

[86mustang408w]

What size is the BT? the Mega is 4", is that the one you have? Just curious...

 

[Art Upton]

Thanks, Brian... So you think the 1/8" plywood won't hold up on H motors? an option then would be to glass them, haven't done that before but there is always a first time for everything.

the plywood will hold up fine. He is talking about his huge 4" rocket, not your 3" rocket.

I have flown an Estes 2.5" paper rocket on plywood fins and only gorilla glue on an I205 twice.

 

[Art Upton]

the plywood will hold up fine. He is talking about his huge 4" rocket, not your 3" rocket.

I have flown an Estes 2.5" paper rocket on plywood fins and only gorilla glue on an I205 twice.

at the same launch I flew an 2" Estes Rocket [Asender] with plastic fins using ZAP CA on an H135

 

[86mustang408w]

I'm up in the air as what do with the stock fins, my Mega some seem to use better fins while others Just use the stock ones built with different techniques...Its going to be a min 38mm.. ..or maybe 54mm. Small motor low Happy flight, Following, but Good luck with your Der Big!

 

[86mustang408w]

This is only intended for the LP or MP guys that maybe starting in the hobby on my options on my DBRM build. All you HP guys out class me so this may be boring to you guys as it is still only a estes kit.

My plan is to use the Vander-Burn Plywood Upgrade Kit (with 4 centering rings) from Launch Lab Rocketry and longer MMT 12” cut down to 8” from LOC Precision to replace the 6” Estes MMT. I will be making a fin can then cutting the body tube just like in the LOC kits for extra strength because I plan on flying it on some Aerotech DMS H motors and maybe a I205W-14A. Because of this I will be replacing the launch lugs with rail buttons. Haven’t decided on rounding the leading edge of the fins or beveling them.

I will be using a U-Bolt to the Aft ring with a 12’-15’ looped caviar shock cord with on of my Rocketman chutes. Of course, I will be using my JLCR wrapped up in Nomex chute protector. One Idea I had was to use the DBRM skull chute as a streamer with only 2-4 line on the bottom. Kind of a Skull flag on the way down.

I have modified Jim Parsons OpenRocket Estes Der Big Red Max file for the upgrades and to get my flight data from the motors I will be using. I’m using the new version OpenRocket version 22.02 Bata 01 and so far, I’m really liking it. Adding the rail button was sweet.

I haven't made up my mind yet on if I want to use the Estes stickeres or go with the vinyl from Stickershock23. I really want a nice candy apple red ( will need you imput on the best way to do this) and will be finning it off with Spaymax 2K clear just becouse I love this stuff.

Here is my unboxing and with some of my upgrade stuff.
View attachment 516594

The Vander-Burn Plywood Upgrade Kit (with 4 centering rings) from Launch Lab Rocketry:
View attachment 516596

Here are some of the items I will not be using, not sure yet about using the skull chute as a streamer. Mybe your input may make up my mind.
View attachment 516597

Do you have a link for those fins from Launch Lab Rocketry??

 

[SEWAR]

Do you have a link for those fins from Launch Lab Rocketry??

https://www.launchlabrocketry.com/shop/p/vanderburnderbigredmaxupgradekit

 

[86mustang408w]

https://www.launchlabrocketry.com/shop/p/vanderburnderbigredmaxupgradekit

Thanks, I emailed him but the was out. So I got the ones from Rocketryworks last week and have them now in 1/4" and 38mm motor tube setup. LL said he wasn't sure when he'd have them, I even talked to or emailed with him today for a bit about other things so he's probably my guy from now on. Thanks though looks liked I lucked out anyways with RW. I made a post on the forum with them.

 

[John Taylor]

What size is the BT? the Mega is 4", is that the one you have? Just curious...

If your talking to me it's 4" diameter with 38mm motor mount.

 

[John Taylor]

If your talking to me it's 4" diameter with 38mm motor mount.

It's a Toby Vanderbeek (Vanderburn) original clone of the Estes Mega Max 4" .
oops model.

 

[86mustang408w]

If your talking to me it's 4" diameter with 38mm motor mount.

Oh ok! Thank you!

 

[SolarYellow]

at the same launch I flew an 2" Estes Rocket [Asender] with plastic fins using ZAP CA on an H135

Good to see that. I’m starting to build almost exactly that for my L1. Trying to do a little better with the fins, just in case I need a do-over. The only other H the local motor guy has that fits my case is an H170.

 

[86mustang408w]

Thanks for the help guys got a set of fins, thank you. Great build!!